p-lang thread: (now (have you (problems two)))

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > YOSPOS > p-lang thread: (now (have you (problems two)))

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Nomnom Cookie: Aug 30, 2009

Cybernetic Vermin posted:

ruby-style everything-is-an-object you can mess with is sort of the perfect example of an emerson-type foolish consistency

primitive types gently caress yeah

unironically

primitive types are the backbone of high performance code

# ? Feb 27, 2014 18:54

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# ? May 15, 2024 08:20

coffeetable: Feb 5, 2006; TELL ME AGAIN HOW GREAT BRITAIN WOULD BE IF IT WAS RULED BY THE MERCILESS JACKBOOT OF PRINCE CHARLES

YES I DO TALK TO PLANTS ACTUALLY

Kevin Mitnick P.E. posted:

oh gently caress paul graham was right. this is a blub post

id never heard of this

quote:

Our hypothetical Blub programmer wouldn't use either [Cobol or assembly]. Of course he wouldn't program in machine language. That's what compilers are for. And as for Cobol, he doesn't know how anyone can get anything done with it. It doesn't even have x (Blub feature of your choice).

As long as our hypothetical Blub programmer is looking down the power continuum, he knows he's looking down. Languages less powerful than Blub are obviously less powerful, because they're missing some feature he's used to. But when our hypothetical Blub programmer looks in the other direction, up the power continuum, he doesn't realize he's looking up. What he sees are merely weird languages. He probably considers them about equivalent in power to Blub, but with all this other hairy stuff thrown in as well. Blub is good enough for him, because he thinks in Blub.

When we switch to the point of view of a programmer using any of the languages higher up the power continuum, however, we find that he in turn looks down upon Blub. How can you get anything done in Blub? It doesn't even have y.

By induction, the only programmers in a position to see all the differences in power between the various languages are those who understand the most powerful one. (This is probably what Eric Raymond meant about Lisp making you a better programmer.) You can't trust the opinions of the others, because of the Blub paradox: they're satisfied with whatever language they happen to use, because it dictates the way they think about programs.

wow. that's a spectacular final paragraph. it must really take some doing to make a point and then miss it yourself so completely

# ? Feb 27, 2014 18:57

skeevy achievements: Feb 25, 2008; by merry exmarx

Cybernetic Vermin posted:

ruby-style everything-is-an-object you can mess with is sort of the perfect example of an emerson-type foolish consistency

makes sense in a plang imo

not having to think about stuff is what plangs do well

not running fast is another thing plangs do well but lol if you're using a plang where performance matters

# ? Feb 27, 2014 18:59

Blotto Skorzany: Nov 7, 2008; He's a PSoC, loose and runnin'
came the whisper from each lip
And he's here to do some business with
the bad ADC on his chip
bad ADC on his chiiiiip

can you expand upon your earlier zinger re: jane street btw

# ? Feb 27, 2014 19:05

vOv: Feb 8, 2014

coffeetable posted:

id never heard of this

wow. that's a spectacular final paragraph. it must really take some doing to make a point and then miss it yourself so completely

yeah blub is actually a good essay right until he ends it with 'except lisp which is OBVIOUSLY the most powerful language ever'

# ? Feb 27, 2014 19:07

Sapozhnik: Jan 2, 2005; Nap Ghost

there will be no combination of language and framework where every fully-featured program one can desire will be expressible in one line.

and beyond a certain point terseness comes at the expense of not just flexibilty and efficiency but also clarity.

that and i really hate the sort of insecure wankers who just have to do things in the cleverest way possible. do it the stupidest possible way that still gets things done in a reasonable amount of time and stop loving showing off.

# ? Feb 27, 2014 19:28

Nomnom Cookie: Aug 30, 2009

programmers just tend to be too clever for their own good. no you dont need to write a script for this, just type it in by hand in five minutes. suck it up and do some 10-key

# ? Feb 27, 2014 19:37

Max Facetime: Apr 18, 2009

vOv posted:

yeah blub is actually a good essay right until he ends it with 'except lisp which is OBVIOUSLY the most powerful language ever'

I think it's a wonderfully apt demonstration of how there isn't any one thing LISP can teach someone, just things one can learn from LISP. What is to be learned here is that what looks like a straight-line continuum of lower to higher level programming languages from one person's viewpoint is not at all a straight line when many people are considered together. Rather than a line it's more like a circle.

Only once someone has internalized this lesson can they fully appreciate that what all these PLs are circled around is ... Java

# ? Feb 27, 2014 19:39

Nomnom Cookie: Aug 30, 2009

for real one of the things i like about java is that its hard to be excessively clever

# ? Feb 27, 2014 19:39

Shaggar: Apr 26, 2006

yeah that's one of its best features and also why those people hate it so much

# ? Feb 27, 2014 19:41

Gazpacho: Jun 18, 2004; by Fluffdaddy; Slippery Tilde

the proliferation of compilers to JS pretty much validates a CS essay I saw years ago that said any platform based on continuations is destined to be replaced by higher-level tools that perform the CPS transformation automatically, trusting humans to write continuations by hand is nuts

# ? Feb 27, 2014 19:41

Shaggar: Apr 26, 2006

its so great because if someone does java and c# you know they're probably pretty good, but if they do a p-lang and then maybe also c# you know they're gonna have some toxic habits

# ? Feb 27, 2014 19:42

Sapozhnik: Jan 2, 2005; Nap Ghost

Kevin Mitnick P.E. posted:

for real one of the things i like about java is that its hard to be excessively clever

# ? Feb 27, 2014 20:03

Sapozhnik: Jan 2, 2005; Nap Ghost

i do kinda want to dick around with c++11 a bit but i do recognise it for the evil it represents and i'm not going to actually ship poo poo written in that language

really looking forward to rust 1.0 tho

# ? Feb 27, 2014 20:04

Malcolm XML: Aug 8, 2009; I always knew it would end like ｔｈｉｓ．

Mr Dog posted:

i do kinda want to dick around with c++11 a bit but i do recognise it for the evil it represents and i'm not going to actually ship poo poo written in that language

really looking forward to rust 1.0 tho

ya worst part of rust is waiting til it stabilizes

# ? Feb 27, 2014 20:07

JewKiller 3000: Nov 28, 2006; by Lowtax

Otto Skorzeny posted:

can you expand upon your earlier zinger re: jane street btw

he doesn't have one besides "they didn't hire me"

# ? Feb 27, 2014 22:25

MononcQc: May 29, 2007

I welcome javascript on the server-side the way I welcomed java applets in the browser side.

# ? Feb 27, 2014 22:29

Blotto Skorzany: Nov 7, 2008; He's a PSoC, loose and runnin'
came the whisper from each lip
And he's here to do some business with
the bad ADC on his chip
bad ADC on his chiiiiip

MononcQc posted:

I welcome javascript on the server-side the way I welcomed java applets in the browser side.

with a shotgun aimed at your monitor?

# ? Feb 27, 2014 22:37

double sulk: Jul 2, 2010

elixir is the future imo

# ? Feb 27, 2014 23:12

tef: May 30, 2004; -> some l-system crap ->

Kevin Mitnick P.E. posted:

oh gently caress paul graham was right. this is a blub post

smuggo spotted

# ? Feb 28, 2014 00:45

tef: May 30, 2004; -> some l-system crap ->

hepatizon posted:

for reasons other than syntactical ambiguity?

bundler, rails, gems, pretty much everything i've used to maintain a rails website (ask me about inheriting bad code when working at a non profit)

# ? Feb 28, 2014 00:46

tef: May 30, 2004; -> some l-system crap ->

Kevin Mitnick P.E. posted:

primitive types gently caress yeah

unironically

primitive types are the backbone of high performance code

gotta go fast

# ? Feb 28, 2014 00:46

MononcQc: May 29, 2007

double sulk posted:

elixir is the future imo

At least until you decide something else is the future :v:

# ? Feb 28, 2014 00:47

tef: May 30, 2004; -> some l-system crap ->

vOv posted:

yeah blub is actually a good essay right until he ends it with 'except lisp which is OBVIOUSLY the most powerful language ever'

his essay serves as an example of a point he fails to grasp, so i guess there's some usefulness by accident

lisp users are generally intolerable assholes, or at least the highest correlation. the naggum effect

# ? Feb 28, 2014 00:48

tef: May 30, 2004; -> some l-system crap ->

Kevin Mitnick P.E. posted:

for real one of the things i like about java is that its hard to be excessively clever

having a high bar for cleverness, means you get mediocre code and impossible code with little in-between

# ? Feb 28, 2014 00:50

tef: May 30, 2004; -> some l-system crap ->

java could have been a lot better at letting you write stupid code if you didn't have to do defensive copying

# ? Feb 28, 2014 00:58

Gazpacho: Jun 18, 2004; by Fluffdaddy; Slippery Tilde

one person's cleverness is another person's competence :chord:

# ? Feb 28, 2014 02:35

qwerasdf: Oct 1, 2006; (Eat shit)

C# keeps getting more awesome:

http://coolthingoftheday.blogspot.co.uk/2014/02/for-c-aka-c-might-be-getting-object.html

enjoy yore toy languages though

# ? Feb 28, 2014 02:45

motedek: Oct 9, 2012

qwerasdf posted:

C# keeps getting more awesome:

http://coolthingoftheday.blogspot.co.uk/2014/02/for-c-aka-c-might-be-getting-object.html

enjoy yore toy languages though

monads

# ? Feb 28, 2014 02:49

Nomnom Cookie: Aug 30, 2009

tef posted:

gotta go fast

some people have latency targets they can't hit by doing multiple hash lookups per integer operation

# ? Feb 28, 2014 03:21

Nomnom Cookie: Aug 30, 2009

tef posted:

having a high bar for cleverness, means you get mediocre code and impossible code with little in-between

sometimes both at once. but not being clever is the path of least resistance

# ? Feb 28, 2014 03:26

Dessert Rose: May 17, 2004; awoken in control of a lucid deep dream...

Damiya posted:

i may be a 6'6" trans non-passing gay woman but gently caress me if you think i'd make the kind of terrible rear end life choices that would lead to debugging PHP in production

this may be the best post anyone has ever made in this thread

# ? Feb 28, 2014 04:38

Dessert Rose: May 17, 2004; awoken in control of a lucid deep dream...

Otto Skorzeny posted:

snack overflow

mods omg please

# ? Feb 28, 2014 04:38

Socracheese: Oct 20, 2008

professors tell students to look it up on stackoverflow now but all i can think about is heft fatwood of snack overflow

# ? Feb 28, 2014 05:11

MeruFM: Jul 27, 2010

i'm glad after a few pages of monad talk, we're back to lolplang lolC# loljabba

# ? Feb 28, 2014 05:17

multigl: Nov 22, 2005; "Who's cool and has two thumbs? This guy!"

write programs for fun and profit

# ? Feb 28, 2014 08:15

gonadic io: Feb 16, 2011; >>=

I'm writing a paper comparing C99, Java7 and Haskell for dynamic prog stuff. I'm doing a 1k word extended abstract and wanted a simple example I could fit in and benchmark. Given a function int gcd (int, int), a capacity and an array of weights, the code finds the gcd of the cap and all the weights.

C code:

int gcds (int capacity, size_t n, int weights[restrict static n]) {
	int i, gcd_all = capacity;
	for (i = 0; i < n; i++) {
		gcd_all = gcd (gcd_all, weights[i]);
	}
	return gcd_all;
}

Java code:

public int gcds (int capacity, int[] weights) {
	int gcd_all = capacity;
	for (int weight : weights) {
		gcd_all = gcd (gcd_all, weight);
	}
	return gcd_all;
}

code:

gcds :: Int -> Vector Int -> Int
gcds capacity weights = V.foldl' gcd capacity weights

is this a reasonably fair comparison? Anybody want to suggest changes to their chosen language? I don't suppose Java7 has a fold or join or reduce function hiding somewhere?

# ? Feb 28, 2014 11:19

Brain Candy: May 18, 2006

it's fairish except for that java8 is officially out in two weeks and has foldl

# ? Feb 28, 2014 12:02

qntm: Jun 17, 2009

Brain Candy posted:

it's fairish except for that java8 is officially out in two weeks and has foldl

it also has String.join() :woop:

# ? Feb 28, 2014 12:47

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# ? May 15, 2024 08:20

Damiya: Jul 3, 2012

Kevin Mitnick P.E. posted:

oh gently caress paul graham was right. this is a blub post

Not sure I follow like I think Paul Graham had a point minus the lisp bit.

node is a good tool for the things it's good for and a bad tool for the things it's bad for.

Dessert Rose posted:

this may be the best post anyone has ever made in this thread

happy to help :drac:

# ? Feb 28, 2014 13:20

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > YOSPOS > p-lang thread: (now (have you (problems two)))

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