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It's arguable that Pakistan probably needs some sort of wide-sweeping rebuild of the entire government, but at this point everyone just wants to keep it stable enough to not let their nukes loose. Nukes that unlike North Korea, actually work and have proven medium range delivery capability.
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May 19, 2014 20:44
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anonumos posted:edit: quoted the wrong person Yes it is terrifying. Hence why it is a bad strategy. But there is a world of loving difference between "poo poo, this isn't working out how we wanted" and being Grand Moff Tarkin and terrifying people for the sake of terrifying them so they stay down. You cranks have jumped to the latter, just like how every right wing nut goes from seeing a program with the goal of reducing a social illness that has a poverty trap in it due to poor program design to being a conspiracy to subdue the population by making them dependent.
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May 19, 2014 20:45
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Miltank posted:We don't have a legitimate reason to kill people just because the US has defined them as terrorists or militants or whatever. We have Congressional authorization to do so, so maybe you attack the disease instead of complaining about the symptoms?
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May 19, 2014 20:45
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Fried Chicken posted:Yes it is terrifying. Hence why it is a bad strategy. But there is a world of loving difference between "poo poo, this isn't working out how we wanted" and being Grand Moff Tarkin and terrifying people for the sake of terrifying them so they stay down. You cranks have jumped to the latter, just like how every right wing nut goes from seeing a program with the goal of reducing a social illness that has a poverty trap in it due to poor program design to being a conspiracy to subdue the population by making them dependent. I don't see why your rationalization is any more likely hth. I mean you got to see how it pretty silly to assume the best of intentions just as much as the worst. Edit: I mean seriously with the clive Bundy poo poo you sound like a fox news anchor during one of their "debates". CharlestheHammer fucked around with this message at 20:53 on May 19, 2014 |
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May 19, 2014 20:46
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Miltank posted:We don't have a legitimate reason to kill people just because the US has defined them as terrorists or militants or whatever. I'm not sure what you mean by transparency. There's pretty good public evidence from Abdulmuttalab that al-Awlaki helped train him and was part of al-Qaeda. Apparently he was also involved in other plots, but it's unreasonable to ask for the exact sources from inside the Mideast, just like it would be to ask how we knew a bombing target was a Wehrmacht camp or whatever.
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May 19, 2014 20:46
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quote != edit
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May 19, 2014 20:46
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Munkeymon posted:We have Congressional authorization to do so, so maybe you attack the disease instead of complaining about the symptoms? attack huh? Drones deployed, I hope you aren't near any loved ones.
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May 19, 2014 20:47
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Fried Chicken posted:So a quote about "you shouldn't drag your children into your paramilitary to continue your war" is now "we want to scare the living poo poo out of everyone else there so they don't dare raise a hand against us"? Al-Alawki's son hadn't heard from his father in two years, and at this point he'd been dead for several weeks/months so I'm curious how you're getting the idea that he was "dragging his son into the paramilitary to continue his war". quote:We don't want them terrified of us. That is a bad thing. We want them to like us, to have a pro USA political bloc, to cheer us on. Having them terrified is actively sabotaging having that. This is a point that was hammered home constantly - that we were the "tip of the spear" striking military targets, but we had to be careful because we wanted to win hearts and minds. The assholes who scared them were the problem, in other branches the term was "strategic private", the low level dumb poo poo who would do something horrible and mass media meant the scary image was all over the place. The US would never do a thing that is counterproductive to its interests!  Seriously, do you really think it's impossible that the US would be pursuing a carrot and stick approach? Try to win the hearts and minds of the population while making it clear that associating with terrorism in any form is going to be really unpleasant not just for you but for people you love as well? People pursue ends that seemingly come into conflict all the time, we even have cute terms like "carrot and stick" for them. That includes this war, where we've done numerous things that oppose wining hearts and minds. Right off the top of my head, there's the time some tank truck convoy got hit and then we bombed the civvies who came out to try and steal a can of gas to cook their dinner, or the endless night raids. Did that all just not happen because it might hurt ~*hearts and minds*~? Or maybe the situation isn't quite as shallow as you pretend it is, and the US government is a big system that is pursuing lots of ends in ways that are not always complimentary? quote:Get out of your bubbles, you sound like left wing Cliven Bundys, spouting conspiracy theories and your own special "read between the lines" like you get at WND The reading I made of that is perfectly fair. A more valid criticism is that Gibbs is just a press secretary, not a policy decisionmaker, and maybe he just said a dumb thing because he was having a bad day. That said, it very much seems like one of those "unforced errors" in which a politician accidentally says what he's really thinking. Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 21:00 on May 19, 2014 |
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May 19, 2014 20:49
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Munkeymon posted:We have Congressional authorization to do so, so maybe you attack the disease instead of complaining about the symptoms? Ah yes, Abdulrahman Al-Awlaki, noted for his remarkable contributions to the September 11th attacks in 2001 as a precocious six-year-old.
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May 19, 2014 20:53
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Kiwi Ghost Chips posted:I'm not sure what you mean by transparency. There's pretty good public evidence from Abdulmuttalab that al-Awlaki helped train him and was part of al-Qaeda. Apparently he was also involved in other plots, but it's unreasonable to ask for the exact sources from inside the Mideast, just like it would be to ask how we knew a bombing target was a Wehrmacht camp or whatever. Treating pakistani/yemeni herders as though they are the literal nazis is the reason the war on terror is completely hosed up.
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May 19, 2014 20:58
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Paul MaudDib posted:Al-Alawki's son hadn't heard from his father in two years, and at this point he'd been dead for several weeks/months so I'm curious how you're getting the idea that he was "dragging his son into the paramilitary to continue his war". quote:The US would never do a thing that is counterproductive to its interests! quote:The reading I made of that is perfectly fair. A valid criticism is that Gibbs is just a press secretary, not a policy decisionmaker, and maybe he just said a dumb thing because he was having a bad day. quote:That said, it very much seems like one of those "unforced errors" in which a politician accidentally says what he's really thinking.
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May 19, 2014 20:58
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Hey y'all didn't see this anywhere in drone chat. Oregon's the next state to have their majority oppressing the minority ban overturned.
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May 19, 2014 20:59
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VitalSigns posted:Ah yes, Abdulrahman Al-Awlaki, noted for his remarkable contributions to the September 11th attacks in 2001 as a precocious six-year-old. if only we could have killed him when he was a 5yo none of this would have happened. You see what all of this liberal hand wringing leads to?
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May 19, 2014 20:59
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Us PNWers are busy high fiving. http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2014/05/19/federal-judge-strikes-down-oregons-ban-on-same-sex-marriage
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May 19, 2014 21:00
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Fried Chicken posted:do you have even the slightest iota of evidence that drone strikes are a psyops campaign rather than exactly what they are stated to be? The drone strikes are a terror campaign whether that is the intended effect or not.
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May 19, 2014 21:01
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Miltank posted:someone please tell these children that they are missing the point So it's your position that the terror component is an intended outcome and not a lovely side effect we should try to mitigate?
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May 19, 2014 21:02
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GreyjoyBastard posted:So it's your position that the terror component is an intended outcome and not a lovely side effect we should try to mitigate? I am not sure that is really possible. Its kind of inherent to the program. Intentional or not.
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May 19, 2014 21:04
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VitalSigns posted:Ah yes, Abdulrahman Al-Awlaki, noted for his remarkable contributions to the September 11th attacks in 2001 as a precocious six-year-old. I'm not going to argue any specific cases that they did(n't) gently caress up because I don't have enough information*, but, in general, you do not drag your kids into whatever stupid/dangerous poo poo you get up to and assume they're going to be OK whether that poo poo is conspiring to attack the United States and its allies, joining an armed defense of a crazy racist rear end in a top hat's right to mooch off the government or making pipe bombs in the shed out back. These people are endangering their loved ones through deliberate action and, while I feel bad for their loved ones, I'm not going to blame the scorpion for its nature. *obviously, that is also an issue, but I'm going to point it out because I'm pretty sure that if I don't, the only reply will be some smuglord captain obvious
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May 19, 2014 21:04
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GreyjoyBastard posted:So it's your position that the terror component is an intended outcome and not a lovely side effect we should try to mitigate? lol They are are inseparable. E: A bombing campaign that isn't a terror campaign? Miltank fucked around with this message at 21:11 on May 19, 2014 |
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May 19, 2014 21:05
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hey guys i just wanted to note how quickly people go to a stock "you're a left wing version of some right wing thing" response i found it interesting thank 
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May 19, 2014 21:09
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Edit: nope, spoke to soon, you are still kooks.
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May 19, 2014 21:09
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Miltank posted:Treating pakistani/yemeni herders as though they are the literal nazis is the reason the war on terror is completely hosed up. I'm making the point that it's weird to expect that the intelligence behind military actions will be fully transparent. If you have evidence that civilians are being intentionally targeted feel free to show it.
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May 19, 2014 21:10
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GreyjoyBastard posted:So it's your position that the terror component is an intended outcome and not a lovely side effect we should try to mitigate? Certain characteristics are certainly tending that way. For example, "double tap" strikes (hitting a target, waiting for rescuers to arrive, then hitting the rescuers) was once considered a hallmark of terrorist activity. quote:"'The problem is that once the initial explosion goes off, many people will believe that's it, and will respond accordingly,' [the Heritage Foundation's Jack] Spencer said … The goal is to 'incite more terror. If there's an initial explosion and a second explosion, then we're thinking about a third explosion,' Spencer said." This has become a pretty standard tactic used in the prosecution of the War On Terror, both in human-involved situations like the Collateral Murder video as well as drone strikes and such. quote:The frequency with which the US uses this tactic is reflected by this December 2011 report from ABC News on the drone killing of 16-year-old Tariq Khan and his 12-year-old cousin Waheed, just days after the older boy attended a meeting to protest US drones: The President isn't going to come out cradling a white cat and twirling a moustache and announce that he's going to blow up the moon if there's one more terrorist attack, but the tactics we employ, the standards we use to employ them, etc are all pointing in the direction of a "terror" component to the campaign, which the administration probably perceives along the lines of "incentive not to become involved in terrorist activity". And when people like Gibbs come out and say things like that, well... The idea that the US only attempts to "win hearts and minds" and does not attempt to provide harsh incentives for people to stay the gently caress away from anything potentially definable as terrorism is really the oddball one here. We don't even like people showing up to aid wounded terrorists. If you're willing to attack good-Samaritan first responders why is an implied threat against your family (should you become a terrorist) such a big leap? Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 21:50 on May 19, 2014 |
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May 19, 2014 21:11
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Miltank posted:lol So what's your alternative? More boots on the ground? Do you really think that's going to solve the problem of civilian casualties? Do you really think that boy would be alive if a platoon of Marines had ambushed the man he was with?
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May 19, 2014 21:11
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Kiwi Ghost Chips posted:I'm making the point that it's weird to expect that the intelligence behind military actions will be fully transparent. If you have evidence that civilians are being intentionally targeted feel free to show it. I cannot prove innocence or intent, no.
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May 19, 2014 21:12
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Who What Now posted:So what's your alternative? More boots on the ground? Do you really think that's going to solve the problem of civilian casualties? Do you really think that boy would be alive if a platoon of Marines had ambushed the man he was with? My own alternative would be Pakistan, Yemen, et al getting workable governments that can handle their own security issues. But welp, I don't think that's going to be happening any time soon.
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May 19, 2014 21:13
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lol http://www.theroot.com/articles/politics/2014/02/chelsi_p_henry_why_i_m_a_black_female_republican.html?wpisrc=policymic CHELSI P. HENRY posted:My mother gave birth to me when she was 16 years old, and we received government assistance during the first few years of my life. When I was growing up, she taught me the importance of making a budget and living by it. In our home I learned the importance of having a plan and delaying gratification for the things I wanted or thought I deserved. It meant generic brands instead of name brands and buying what I needed, rather than what I may have wanted. It meant living more conservatively.
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May 19, 2014 21:13
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Fried Chicken posted:Thomas Friedman outs himself as a goon here. Remember, capitalism and consumer culture prevents war! No, but Kenny Loggins and Steppenwolf do.
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May 19, 2014 21:14
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Fried Chicken posted:Edit: nope, spoke to soon, you are still kooks. Probably for the best, you weren't doing to hot in this discussion. You desperately wanted to paint your opponents as kooks but all you managed to do is make yourself look like a hyperbolic rear end in a top hat.
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May 19, 2014 21:15
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Dystram posted:lol I... I don't get it. She literally probably wouldn't be alive if it weren't for the assistance her family received growing up and republicans want to cut that. what the gently caress. WHAT AM I MISSING?! I need a drink.
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May 19, 2014 21:16
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Install Windows posted:My own alternative would be Pakistan, Yemen, et al getting workable governments that can handle their own security issues. But welp, I don't think that's going to be happening any time soon. I really really wish this was a viable alternative. 
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May 19, 2014 21:17
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I mean, it seems like so many people don't get that that's why the program is used. Drones for the most part aren't really suitable for flying over truly hostile territory, but you also have no reason to use them when the country in question has a suitable police/military force then go in and just grab the guys wanted. So you have these loosely stable, loosely allied countries like Pakistan that have people that are wanted, but the governments are unable or unwilling to kill or capture the people themselves. But they'll allow the overflights and even basing of the craft to take care of the job by explosive force. And this is to mention nothing of how reliance on intelligence provided by said host countries goes into determining what places are targeted for each mission - which might involve grudge or retaliations by the host government or elements within it.
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May 19, 2014 21:21
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Tigntink posted:Us PNWers are busy high fiving. Don't forget to shot gun your preferred PNW beer: Olympia or Vitamin R.
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May 19, 2014 21:22
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Kiwi Ghost Chips posted:I'm not sure what you mean by transparency. There's pretty good public evidence from Abdulmuttalab that al-Awlaki helped train him and was part of al-Qaeda. Apparently he was also involved in other plots, but it's unreasonable to ask for the exact sources from inside the Mideast, just like it would be to ask how we knew a bombing target was a Wehrmacht camp or whatever. Christ, is this ever a stupid analogy.
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May 19, 2014 21:25
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DemeaninDemon posted:Don't forget to shot gun your preferred PNW beer: Olympia or Vitamin R. Gotta be on the hoity toity poo poo - Gotta get your Descutes or Widmir on for Oregon.
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May 19, 2014 21:25
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CharlestheHammer posted:Probably for the best, you weren't doing to hot in this discussion. No see if you think the US government should reform its prosecution of the War on Terror and prefer to vote for politicians who agree, that is just the same as refusing to obey federal law, pointing guns at federal agents, and threatening to murder anyone with a BLM sticker on their truck. Sorry you hate America.
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May 19, 2014 21:26
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Chantilly Say posted:Christ, is this ever a stupid analogy. You think every "Wehrmacht emplacement" we hit in WWII actually was one? Just saying.
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May 19, 2014 21:26
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CharlestheHammer posted:Probably for the best, you weren't doing to hot in this discussion. Yeah, and your analogy was in no way the dumbest thing said/low water mark of the exchange.
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May 19, 2014 21:26
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CharlestheHammer posted:Probably for the best, you weren't doing to hot in this discussion. We know what a psyops campaign looks like and how it operates. This is nothing like it. Apparently the point is to cause as much damage and make it as widely known as possible, which is why we are using the most limited method and covering it up. You have prevented nothing that at all substantiates your views, and the best response you have when that is pointed out is "nu uh". The only response you have offered is "you are wrong, I am right" Fried Chicken fucked around with this message at 21:29 on May 19, 2014 |
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May 19, 2014 21:27
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Tigntink posted:Gotta be on the hoity toity poo poo - Gotta get your Descutes or Widmir on for Oregon. That's for after. Gotta enjoy the far superior Oregon beer. Plus it's hard to shotgun glass.
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May 19, 2014 21:27
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