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Boon posted:Everyone got pretty caught on the whole "life on the line" thing. I'd argue, and if you read my post, that it's a pretty small part of it. It's the time commitment. It's the being away from life that is the real sacrifice. Well, before my current job I was working another one where I earned 9 an hour and spent an average of 3 hours a night sleeping for a year, so I'd say the private sector can be about as lovely as the military in many ways!
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May 31, 2014 18:34
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Torka posted:When was the last time an American soldier was shot for insubordination? WWII
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May 31, 2014 18:34
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Literally a lifetime ago.
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May 31, 2014 18:36
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Kit Walker posted:Well, before my current job I was working another one where I earned 9 an hour and spent an average of 3 hours a night sleeping for a year, so I'd say the private sector can be about as lovely as the military in many ways! I agree, like I said, I don't think the military has a monopoly on poo poo circumstances. The benefits aren't "special", they're a part of the package - they are deserved. Others deserve them as well, but the fact that they don't get them doesn't make the ones that do any less undeserving, I guess that's my point. Boon fucked around with this message at 18:40 on May 31, 2014 |
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May 31, 2014 18:38
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Boon posted:Everyone got pretty caught on the whole "life on the line" thing. I'd argue, and if you read my post, that it's a pretty small part of it. It's the time commitment. It's the being away from life that is the real sacrifice. Oh OK. Well I wouldn't know anything about working that hard. I worked overnight stocking shelves at a grocery store full time while going to college for 4 years. I really can't comprehend the sacrifice because I would work from 9pm to 7am and then be in class a few hours later taking 15+ credit hours a semester. I can't really emphasize with only have 3 hours of sleep a night and having no spare time. I mean, I guess I could have quit my job. I think being homeless while trying to go to college is a good alternative.
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May 31, 2014 18:39
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I still think that talking about who does and doesn't deserve good health service is the completely wrong way to think about it. To me it's like asking who does and doesn't deserve police protection.
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May 31, 2014 18:40
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Chard posted:Yeah we really ought to expand those programs to non-veterans as well. I agree with this totally. I went to school on the GI Bill, and there's no way I would've been able to get through without it. I'd love for it to be extended to everyone in some manner.
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May 31, 2014 18:41
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Boon posted:I agree, like I said, I don't think the military has a monopoly on poo poo circumstances. The benefits aren't "special", they're a part of the package - they are deserved. Others deserve them as well, but the fact that they don't get them doesn't make the ones that do any less undeserving, I guess that's my point. That's fair. It's just a point that's usually used to drag others down. "McDonald's employees want to earn a living wage? How about risking your life for a living before asking for that, huh?"
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May 31, 2014 18:42
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Phone posted:Oh OK. Well you could have quit your job without going to prison. That's a pretty big difference.
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May 31, 2014 18:45
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Prison...or homelessness...prison...or homelessness... Which flavor of poo poo sandwich do you prefer?
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May 31, 2014 18:46
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Phone posted:Oh OK. Like I said, you won't/can't understand the significant differences between the two. It's no less lovely, but it's significantly different. Kit Walker posted:That's fair. It's just a point that's usually used to drag others down. "McDonald's employees want to earn a living wage? How about risking your life for a living before asking for that, huh?" I think it's easy for someone to feel entitled to it once they have it, and yeah, it's lovely. Some people are just stupid and can't comprehend their fortuitous circumstances (AKA, the GOP). Boon fucked around with this message at 18:49 on May 31, 2014 |
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May 31, 2014 18:47
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Samurai Sanders posted:I still think that talking about who does and doesn't deserve good health service is the completely wrong way to think about it. To me it's like asking who does and doesn't deserve police protection. Whether or not someone "deserves" something according to our conceptions of fairness really has no place in policy formation. It would be good for everyone to get better access to healthcare and education. Whether they're 9-5 behind a desk or jumping out of airplanes and getting shot at doesn't enter into it.
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May 31, 2014 18:47
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In prison you still get 3 hots and a cot. You can also work on being the pinnacle of human physique, or whatever Scalia said.
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May 31, 2014 18:47
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Boon posted:Like I said, you won't/can't understand the significant differences between the two. It's no less lovely, but it's significantly different. Yeah, it's because I'm a dumb civ, right?
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May 31, 2014 18:48
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Kit Walker posted:I get paid 15 an hour for doing a job where I might be killed or maimed any day, any minute if I make a single mistake. Or even if I don't make any mistake. Now I'm sort of curious, what do you do for work?
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May 31, 2014 18:49
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Phone posted:In prison you still get 3 hots and a cot. a tremendous fucker posted:Most of them will not be prisoners with medical conditions or severe mental illness, and many will undoubtedly be fine physical specimens who have developed intimidating muscles pumping iron in the prison gym. Never stops being amazing.
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May 31, 2014 18:51
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Phone posted:Yeah, it's because I'm a dumb civ, right? Dude do you have some kind of complex? You're really bitter about this. You can't understand it because you haven't spent most of a year floating around in a tightly constricted body of water in 90+ degree weather day in day out, only able to see 3 miles because sand is so dense that everything after that blurs into nothing. While averaging those 3 hours of sleep we discussed, having one day at 6 in the morning to make a decision on whether or not you need to order someone to kill something because it crossed an imaginary line at the wrong angle and speed and is unresponsive because they don't speak the same loving language. Meanwhile knowing full well that there are international implications to whatever decision you, and you alone, decide to make.
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May 31, 2014 18:53
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Phone posted:Yeah, it's because I'm a dumb civ, right? Stop being a caricature of a retarded leftist shaking your fist at all the undeserving soldiers. The guy already said he believes everyone deserves having their essentials provided for; he agrees with you. Begrudging soldiers for having something you believe everyone should have anyway is retarded.
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May 31, 2014 18:56
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Jobs are hard, man. But if you think yours was especially hard, or if its difficulty was because it was military, you're the one who doesn't understand.
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May 31, 2014 18:57
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Samurai Sanders posted:I still think that talking about who does and doesn't deserve good health service is the completely wrong way to think about it. To me it's like asking who does and doesn't deserve police protection. This is the real answer. As an aside, the government pays based on what is the bare minimum necessary to keep an adequate supply of minimally qualified people in the military. They aren't doing it to be nice or because WE LOVE ARE TROOPS  , rhetoric notwithstanding.
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May 31, 2014 18:58
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I'm not begrudging him. I don't think he's a bad dude or anything, and he has said multiple times that everyone should have similar benefits. His thesis is NO ONE ELSE CAN EMPATHIZE and shoots down any other example of hard work because it wasn't special hard work.
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May 31, 2014 18:58
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Chard posted:Right to Work states come to mind. Don't feel like cleaning the oven while it's still on? You're fired and homeless, get hosed. Its "At-will" employment you're thinking of, Right to Work is the union buster that says you don't have to pay dues to be represented by the union. Phone posted:I'm not begrudging him. I don't think he's a bad dude or anything, and he has said multiple times that everyone should have similar benefits. Military work IS a special crock of poo poo. Even when you're not risking life and limb directly. It really is a different experience and culture, which I think his point was before people started picking up pitchforks and lighting torches. Grognan fucked around with this message at 19:04 on May 31, 2014 |
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May 31, 2014 19:01
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Phone posted:I'm not begrudging him. Nope, didn't say that. You've misunderstood everyone single one of my posts and are trying to argue... I don't even know what. My argument has, and as far as I know, always been that: - Service members deserve the benefits they receive - Those benefits should not be seen as special or special treatment - Others should also receive these benefits Then a bunch of posts in response to you being obtuse about how you can't understand the military's own special lovely circumstances for a number of reasons, which, was the genesis of the discussion on why benefits are deserved. You just seem to think that because we're not talking about your own lovely circumstances that you're somehow inferior, which again, no one has said is the case. Boon fucked around with this message at 19:06 on May 31, 2014 |
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May 31, 2014 19:02
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Guys I spent 6 years in the military. 4 of it was spent in Washington DC firing cannons for ceremonies. 2 in the Iowa National Guard where even when we were in the field we just stood around and talked a lot. I think on average I worked like, 3-4 hours a day, had at least one 3 or 4 day weekend a month, got free housing, medical, and dental, as well as a monthly food allowance paycheck, and had a guaranteed 30 days of vacation a year (lol more like 60 because S1 never charged anybody). It was totes tough. I'm not saying that there aren't tough military jobs, but I'd be willing to wager a lot that the more common experience is closer to mine than 16 hour days. Furthermore I wish I still had the spending power I had in the military. After 3 years I was making 26-30k a year, which when your only bill is a cell phone goes a lot fuckin ways. Other people in DC would have had to have been making a minimum 60k a year to have comparable living conditions as me, which I'm willing to bet no 19-20 year old is gonna find.
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May 31, 2014 19:06
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Boon posted:Dude do you have some kind of complex? You're really bitter about this. Honestly I think this is the wrong way to argue your point. Yes, you have a lovely, lovely job. Most people will argue there are others with equally lovely jobs that don't get taken care of. A better reply would be to point out that we promised these benefits for one, and that for another it is in societies interests not to have a bunch of poor, former soldiers with poor career prospects and training in how to kill.
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May 31, 2014 19:07
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Il Federale posted:Now I'm sort of curious, what do you do for work? Bike courier in NYC. It means dodging between thousands of trucks, buses, taxis, and pedestrians who aren't paying attention. It's been fun other than the times I got hit by a car illegally turning at 30 mph and doored by someone getting out of a taxi without looking.
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May 31, 2014 19:09
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Boon posted:- Those benefits should not be seen as special or special treatment Which other professions do you think should have completely/significantly tax-exempt income like is the case with combat zone pay?
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May 31, 2014 19:12
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ThirdPartyView posted:Which other professions do you think should have completely/significantly tax-exempt income like is the case with combat zone pay? The ones who get shot at in 3rd world hellscapes? 
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May 31, 2014 19:16
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sean10mm posted:The ones who get shot at in 3rd world hellscapes? So Xe-style mercenaries? Oil workers?
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May 31, 2014 19:17
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Caros posted:Honestly I think this is the wrong way to argue your point. Yes, you have a lovely, lovely job. Most people will argue there are others with equally lovely jobs that don't get taken care of. Yeah, it's a personal topic for me so I think I get defensive about it, but you're right. quote:Which other professions do you think should have completely/significantly tax-exempt income like is the case with combat zone pay? I don't know? Anyone who gets paid poorly for hard work in a combat zone under government employment? Boon fucked around with this message at 19:25 on May 31, 2014 |
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May 31, 2014 19:20
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ThirdPartyView posted:Which other professions do you think should have completely/significantly tax-exempt income like is the case with combat zone pay? Is this separate from the normal $90k out of the country exemption? Because you can get that doing anything, the trick is not to pay local taxes.
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May 31, 2014 19:21
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ThirdPartyView posted:So Xe-style mercenaries? Oil workers? Since we're dealing in hypothetical poo poo that will never happen in the US like a universal college fund and real UHC, sure, why the hell not. E: also what they said. sean10mm fucked around with this message at 19:26 on May 31, 2014 |
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May 31, 2014 19:22
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hobbesmaster posted:WWII Specifically, it was the sad case of Eddie Slovik.
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May 31, 2014 19:26
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hobbesmaster posted:Is this separate from the normal $90k out of the country exemption? Because you can get that doing anything, the trick is not to pay local taxes. Combat zone pay is specifically excluded entirely (under Section 112) without being subject to the foreign tax credit or foreign earned income exclusion, just like muni-bond interest is completely tax exempt.
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May 31, 2014 19:31
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ThirdPartyView posted:So Xe-style mercenaries? Ah the fabled Xenon Warriors.
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May 31, 2014 19:36
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DemeaninDemon posted:Ah the fabled Xenon Warriors. If only (I didn't even realize Xe/Blackwater renamed themselves yet again 3 years ago to Academi).
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May 31, 2014 19:37
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This whole series of posts is hilarious. Are you still in the military, Boon? You might find that many of the same stressors that exist in the military exist when you get out of the military. Your chief didn't really care about you then and your manager won't care about you in the future. I did nine years in the army, and when I was stateside I was in places nowhere near as glamorous as Hawaii. Still, I see a lot of my Facebook friends bitch about every little change in compensation that they get, and I don't hear them griping about things like people losing their entire pensions on their way to go vote for Romney. You absolutely think you're special for having been in the military, and it's only right because the military drove that home every day. Thank you for your service, and God Bless America for giving you the GI Bill.
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May 31, 2014 19:43
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You're navy, right? Because honestly, most of the shittiness you're describing sounds like it comes from being a sailor moreso than being a soldier. And the navy is probably one of the tougher of the maritime jobs, but honestly pretty much all of them are dangerous, all of them have insane hours, and I'm not sure how much that experience reflects non-navy. But it's not important. The only reason you posted was in response to someone arguing that soldiers shouldn't get special benefits for killing fr'ners. You argued that they should. You later said the benefits shouldn't be special, that everyone should get them, which leads me to question what exactly it is you're trying to argue here? I don't think anyone has disagreed with that. So I'm guessing, since you specifically responded to the argument that soldiers shouldn't get special benefits, and proceeded to repeatedly talk up how different it is being a soldier, that you do, in fact, believe they should get special benefits. If you honestly don't, the conversation is over. It never even bloody started. If you do, be honest about. There's arguments to be made, good, practical arguments, but you're not going to make them successfully by moving the goalposts and saying that's not really what you're looking for.
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May 31, 2014 19:46
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^^^^ I guess to outline my position on the GI Bill specifically. - It's a great program. - Service members are deserving of said program (this doesn't mean that others are not, it's merely a statement that the program should be maintained). - It shouldn't be viewed as special treatment, but it is something available to only a minority which does makes it exclusive. - It should not be exclusive, but should be expanded into a broader form of welfare for college assistance for those deserving (however that is determined - qualifying might be a better word than deserving). I don't think that's out of character from my posts, but I may have said something that could be misunderstood. EngineerSean posted:This whole series of posts is hilarious. Are you still in the military, Boon? You might find that many of the same stressors that exist in the military exist when you get out of the military. Your chief didn't really care about you then and your manager won't care about you in the future. I did nine years in the army, and when I was stateside I was in places nowhere near as glamorous as Hawaii. Still, I see a lot of my Facebook friends bitch about every little change in compensation that they get, and I don't hear them griping about things like people losing their entire pensions on their way to go vote for Romney. You absolutely think you're special for having been in the military, and it's only right because the military drove that home every day. Thank you for your service, and God Bless America for giving you the GI Bill. I am, I'm getting out next year. I don't know if I've been clear, I don't think it's more or less stressful but it's different and people don't understand that which leads to people thinking that things like the GI Bill are undeserved or special treatment - they're not. No more than any other federal welfare program and no more than a job which offers health insurance over a job which does not. This is the last post I'll make about it because it's getting (has been) pedantic. Boon fucked around with this message at 20:09 on May 31, 2014 |
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May 31, 2014 19:49
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Meanwhile at the Republican Leadership Conference Prayer Breakfast
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