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Smirr posted:I started looking up which countries would get to keep their governments if only Bundesregierungen were deposed, but it turns out I'm too lazy. The guy is certainly not making a very well thought through demand, though. Germany and Austria. Interestingly, Switzerland's government is called Bundesrat, which is something I didn't know until reading it on Wikipedia. (Also Switzerland is neutral, like the poster just before me pointed out.)
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Oct 21, 2014 19:26
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So what's the Austrian government done lately that has Hans Asperger in the video all up in arms? Because if he's just veiledly ranting against the German government only (which seems likely given that his youtube user picture is of the Bundestag)... well, I don't want to live in a world where Austrian weirdos become really preoccupied with German politics.
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Oct 21, 2014 20:05
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Smirr posted:So what's the Austrian government done lately that has Hans Asperger in the video all up in arms? Because if he's just veiledly ranting against the German government only (which seems likely given that his youtube user picture is of the Bundestag)... well, I don't want to live in a world where Austrian weirdos become really preoccupied with German politics. They are even hacking the AfD servers. http://derstandard.at/2000007119258/Anonymous-Austria-hackte-offenbar-deutsche-AfD
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Oct 21, 2014 21:15
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Der Standard posted:Die Gruppe habe auf verschiedenen Internetseiten die Daten von Kunden des parteieigenen Goldhandels veröffentlicht.  Congratulations, you have your own Ron Paul.
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Oct 21, 2014 21:32
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I would have expected somebody with the name Asperger to be detail fixated enough to notice that the Bundesregierung cannot resign on its own. 
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Oct 21, 2014 21:39
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Randler posted:I would have expected somebody with the name Asperger to be detail fixated enough to notice that the Bundesregierung cannot resign on its own. I was joking. See, the guy's from Austria and seems to have Asperger's, and Hans Asperger was Austrian, therefore funny joke, much merriment. His real name is probably Alois Bergfickerl or something like that
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Oct 21, 2014 21:46
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Smirr posted:I was joking. See, the guy's from Austria and seems to have Asperger's, and Hans Asperger was Austrian, therefore funny joke, much merriment. His real name is probably Alois Bergfickerl or something like that Sadly, he's called René Resch instead. The guy's got some pretty amazing videos on his yt channel, though: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tQJgjL3P0s
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Oct 21, 2014 23:36
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That dude is probably retarded, let's not make fun of him Edit: I really can't tell with Austrians tho Boner Slam fucked around with this message at 09:32 on Oct 23, 2014 |
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Oct 23, 2014 09:19
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Randler, since you're the law guy around here and you seem to be in favor of the proposed passport law -- can you explain exactly how the new documents are supposed to function? What exactly does the level of proof look like that the person in question is a radical Islamist? Would there be a court case where the accused can argue their case? How do you feel about the complaints that the ersatz-ID is in violation of the Allgemeines Gleichbehandlungsgesetz?
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Oct 23, 2014 15:00
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botany posted:Randler, since you're the law guy around here and you seem to be in favor of the proposed passport law -- can you explain exactly how the new documents are supposed to function? What exactly does the level of proof look like that the person in question is a radical Islamist? Would there be a court case where the accused can argue their case? How do you feel about the complaints that the ersatz-ID is in violation of the Allgemeines Gleichbehandlungsgesetz? English version which is less in-depth in case non-Germans are reading The revocation of the ID card would be subject to judicial review. The court would basically have to be convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that there are sufficient grounds to revoke the ID card. The Allgemeines Gleichstellungsgesetz has nothing to do with this whatsoever. Cool German version Angelehnt an die entsprechende Regelung im Passgesetz (§§ 7f. PaßG) würde ein entsprechendes Gesetz vereinfacht so aussehen. quote:§ 1 Versagung des Personalausweises Realitätsnah würde die zuständige Behörde einem entsprechenden Bürger gegenüber einen Bescheid erlassen in dem ihm der Personalausweis entzogen wird und er zur Abgabe desselben aufgefordert würde. Grundsätzlich würde man dem Bürger vor Erlass des Bescheides die Möglichkeit zur Stellungnahme geben. Gegen diesen Bescheid stünde ihm dann wohl der Rechtsweg zu den Verwaltungsgerichten offen. Das Verwaltungsgericht würde dann feststellen, ob die Voraussetzungen für den Erlass des Bescheids vorgelegen haben. Es würde also insbesondere prüfen, ob bestimmte (im Sinne von konkrete) Tatsachen die Annahme begründen dass der Kläger eine Gefahr für die innere oder äußere Sicherheit ist oder dass erhebliche Belange der Bundesrepublik Deutschland gefährdet sind. Dass Gericht muss von dem Vorliegen dieser Voraussetzungen auch voll überzeugt sein, es genügt also nicht, dass es das Vorliegen der Voraussetzungen für wahrscheinlicher hält als das Nicht-Vorliegen; es muss voll davon überzeugt sein. Mit dem Allgemeinen Gleichberechtigungsgesetz hat das Ganze übrigens gar nichts zu tun. Nebenbei, dass man Leuten unter gewissen Umständen den Reisepass wegnehmen kann um deren Bewegungsfreiheit einzuschränken ist vom Bundesverfassungsgericht für verfassungsrechtlich in Ordnung eingestuft worden. (Elfes-Entscheidung)
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Oct 23, 2014 17:23
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Randler posted:English version which is less in-depth in case non-Germans are reading My point about the AGG comes from here, but it's pretty difficult to find more on that. The problem, as far as I can articulate it, is this:
Again, you're the law expert here, any input would be appreciated.
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Oct 23, 2014 17:55
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botany posted:My point about the AGG comes from here, but it's pretty difficult to find more on that. I can find hardly any news including that thought regarding the AGG. Considering the generally pretty lax attitudes German journalists have when it comes to fact-checking their legal opinions, I'm inclined to believe this is either a layman's own attempt at legal analysis or a misrepresentation of an actual legal expert's opinion on the matter. (The AGG could be relevant in situations where, for example, businesses discriminate against somebody based on the alternative ID card but the AGG does not affect the hypothetical law for the revocation and the procedure itself.) Regarding the arresting part I have to switch back to German, because I think it's important to give some general legal background for that kind of argument. (Warning: Slightly long) The short version für unsere kleineren Gäste is that there is a strict divide in "security politics" between preventation and punishment. Man kann das Gebiet des "Sicherheitsrechts" in zwei Bereiche aufteilen, namentlich das Gefahrenabwehrrecht und das Strafrecht. Diese beiden Rechtsgebiete haben unterschiedliche Zielrichtungen, die bereits in ihren Namen anklingen. Das Gefahrenabwehrrecht bezweckt die Abwehr von drohenden oder gegenwärtigen Gefahren, wobei zu den Gefahren auch Straftaten zählen. Das Strafrecht setzt zeitlich später an und bezweckt die Bestrafung von bereits begangenen Straftaten. Die Trennung in zeitlicher Hinsicht von Gefahrenabwehrrecht und Strafrecht lässt sich in manchen Fällen nicht ganz durchhalten, sodass sie parallel anwendbar sind (Beispiel: Banküberfall. Der Ganove hat dem Bankmitarbeiter bereits die Pistole ins Gesicht gedrückt und unmissverständlich die Herausgabe der Tageseinkünfte verlangt. Aus der Sicht des Gefahrenabwehrrechts ist dies eine gegenwärtige Gefahr. Aus der Sicht des Strafrechts hat der Ganove jedenfalls schon den Straftatbestand der versuchten räuberischen Erpressung verwirklicht. Der Sachverhalt ist also in beiden Rechtsbereichen relevant.) Häufig ist es aber so, dass wir nur eine Gefahrenlage für das Gefahrenabwehrrecht haben aber noch keine Straftaten begangen worden sind. (Beispiel: Am Vorabend obigen Beispiels hat der Ganove bereits alles zurechtgelegt und müsste am nächsten Morgen nur noch zur Bank fahren, die Strumphose überziehen und drohen und fordern. Hier haben wir schon eine drohende Gefahr auf die je nach Fallgestaltung gefahrenabwehrrechtlich reagiert werden kann. Strafrechtlich ist noch nichts passiert. Die reine Planung einer Straftat ist regelmäßig nicht strafbar, auch wenn es sich um eine Straftat handelt deren Versuch bereits strafbar wäre.) Ähnlich ist es im Falle eines hypothetischen Islamisten. Bei dem können wir uns schon ziemlich sicher sein, dass er böse Dinge tun will, aber es ist noch nicht konkret genug um einen Straftatbestand zu verwirklichen. (Und, aus Vereinfachungsgründen einfach mal so hinnehmen, Freiheitsentziehende Maßnahmen im Rahmen des Gefahrenabwehrrechts können in diesem Stadium auch nicht wirksam verhängt werden.) quote:Forcing an adherent of a specific religious ideology to carry identifying papers is obviously illegal under the Basic Law. Given the large number of things Germans use their ID cards for, I highly doubt that forcing Salafists to carry specific warning papers would be legal. The (presumed) phrasing of the law would not force Salafists to carry alternative identity cards, but persons who are a threat to national security (simplified). It is not an unconstitutional singling out of a certain religious group. That the inspiration for that law comes from the behaviour of certain Salafists does not change that. Unconstitutional would, however, be a general phrasing that is then factually only enforced in an illegal discriminatory manner. (Which boils down to whether the phrasing or the execution of a law is okay.) In the interest of briefness right now I'll say I don't see any indication for that here. The design of the alternative documents also isn't discriminatory in itself (re: "Yellow crescent moon!?"). quote:So the big difference between pulling someone's passport and switching out their ID card is that you literally only need your passport if you want to leave the country, so pulling it in cases where you're forbidden from leaving the country in the first place doesn't open you up to more discrimination outside of just the travel ban. Making someone carry a "dangerous person" ID card is different because it singles the carrier out in a vast number of situations that have nothing to do with travelling It's true that the Personalausweis has more everyday uses than the passport and that people will probably make negative assumptions about people with the proposed alternative ID cards. Despite this certainly having a negative impact on those persons' ability to live their lives, I do not think this would make the proposed legislaton unconstitutional. The "labeling" effect alternative ID cards have would have to be taken into consideration when deciding whether or not the revocation of the ID card is proportionate (compare § 1 II of my fictional revocation law molded after the passport revocation rules). The stigma of having an alternative ID, in my opinion, does not make the them generally unconstitutional but might limit when it is appropiate. I.e. only in situations where less impacting measures, like "Meldeauflagen" (which are used to keep known Hooligans from traveling at certain points), would not work. (I did not mention "arresting" them, because that would be a harsher measure than the revocation of the Personalausweis.)
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Oct 23, 2014 18:34
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Yeah to be honest the invocation of the AGG seemed a bit suspect to me as well, hence my post asking for clarification.Randler posted:The (presumed) phrasing of the law would not force Salafists to carry alternative identity cards, but persons who are a threat to national security (simplified). It is not an unconstitutional singling out of a certain religious group. That the inspiration for that law comes from the behaviour of certain Salafists does not change that. Unconstitutional would, however, be a general phrasing that is then factually only enforced in an illegal discriminatory manner. (Which boils down to whether the phrasing or the execution of a law is okay.) In the interest of briefness right now I'll say I don't see any indication for that here. The design of the alternative documents also isn't discriminatory in itself (re: "Yellow crescent moon!?"). So basically this boils down to how the law would be applied. Given that the proposed law is specifically intended to deal with radical Islamists I disagree that it automatically doesn't constitute an unconstitutional singling out of a religious group. There are many ways to phrase a law such that it doesn't single out any specific minority group by name, but still does so in effect. So the question is whether the law in application would unfairly single out Islamists rather than merely persons (of unspecified religious adherence, lol) who are planning to fight for a terrorist group. And there again I don't see how you would put the law into use without putting undue pressure on Islamists. So I agree with you that the phrasing of the law would be fairly easy to bring into accordance with the constitution, but I'm skeptical about the execution. Part of that skepticism is about third party reactions to the new documents. You posted that Randler posted:(The AGG could be relevant in situations where, for example, businesses discriminate against somebody based on the alternative ID card but the AGG does not affect the hypothetical law for the revocation and the procedure itself.) I'm not sure how this is generally seen in law, but I'd assume that there is some consideration of probable effects when deciding whether or not a new law is constitutional. Given that I think it's fairly obvious that persons carrying the documents are going to face discrimination whenever they identify themselves, my gut feeling says that this should factor into the decision. Is that the case, or is constitutionality decided solely on the basis of wording? (Just for Americans who might be following this, Germans use their ID for a lot of stuff. I need to show my ID for things ranging from travelling on a train to opening an account at a video rental place, not to mention everytime I pick up a package at the post office.)
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Oct 23, 2014 18:54
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Bernd Lucke advised to watch YouTube videos in order to understand the AfD. 
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Oct 23, 2014 22:02
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Frankly, I'm having my doubts as to how the judical review would look like. Because we can probably assume that the information on which the revocation is based on intelligence reports, so when the whole thing comes up for review, the judges will ask for that same evidence. And since that would probably give a bigger view into intelligence operations than the various services might like, I don't see them providing it in full. And then its down to "no seriously, this guy is, like, totally bad, no we can't tell you how we know but would we ever lie about that?". Full judical review is a nice principle, but I don't see it work in practice because it would render the law utterly toothless.
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Oct 24, 2014 06:35
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Honj Steak posted:Bernd Lucke advised to watch YouTube videos in order to understand the AfD.
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Oct 24, 2014 08:58
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An article about the GDL that doesn't involve giving out Weselksys private information somehow made it onto Spiegel.de. Nice to see that there are some sensible commentaries after reading all the poo poo Focus/Bild wrote. http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/bahn-streik-der-lokfuehrer-arbeitskampf-ist-ein-geschenk-a-1001337.html
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Nov 6, 2014 22:40
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3peat posted:I have an odd request, could ya'll tell me how good this guy's german is? Like does he sound native or does he have an accent? (he's most probably the future president of Romania) From 4 months ago, but I was right ya'll, Iohannis is now the president of Romania I now expect him to plant himself in front of the Bundestag with his hand out, wink at frau Merkel a little, and bleed yall dry 
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Nov 17, 2014 00:36
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I think he will have to wait in line. Between the Brits, Ukrainians, Greeks, Italians, Portugese, Irish, Spaniards, French, American banks and other such things there is only so much German Gold to go around. Frankly, German policy has been partly successfull in setting up different "give me money Germany" factions against each other so far.
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Nov 17, 2014 11:21
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I can smell the "Wir sind Zigeuner Präsident!" BILD headline already.
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Nov 17, 2014 13:28
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Now it's not only the passport but also the ID card of suspected jihadists which is supposed to be confiscated. http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/kampf-gegen-islamismus-dschihadistensoll-personalausweis-entzogen-werden-1.2238920 Is this still legally sound?
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Nov 27, 2014 02:47
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Honj Steak posted:Now it's not only the passport but also the ID card of suspected jihadists which is supposed to be confiscated. The proposal has always been about allowing to confiscate the ID card as well and that's what we have been talking about here, so I don't think that should change whether it's legally sound.
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Nov 27, 2014 11:17
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The first minister-president by Die Linke. This is the end of Germany. (According to idiots.)
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Dec 5, 2014 11:27
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Lucy Heartfilia posted:The first minister-president by Die Linke. This is the end of Germany. (According to idiots.) Build a wall around Thüringen.
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Dec 5, 2014 11:56
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Lucy Heartfilia posted:The first minister-president by Die Linke. This is the end of Germany. (According to idiots.) To be fair, if Wagenknecht ever becomes Bundeskanzlerin, I would indeed think the end of Germany has come -and the long history of the new westernmost province of the Great Russian Empire will have begun.  On the regional level, I'll be lenient and assume not every possible minister-president the Linke could set up is secretly a spy for mother Russia.
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Dec 5, 2014 11:56
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Libluini posted:To be fair, if Wagenknecht ever becomes Bundeskanzlerin, I would indeed think the end of Germany has come -and the long history of the new westernmost province of the Great Russian Empire will have begun. Easternmost province? Well 
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Dec 5, 2014 11:58
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Lucy Heartfilia posted:The first minister-president by Die Linke. This is the end of Germany. (According to idiots.) The end of Germany was foretold by half of my friends when the FDP stopped being a joke (for a while).
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Dec 5, 2014 12:00
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blowfish posted:Easternmost province? Well Holy loving poo poo, I took less then half a minute to correct that error, how could you respond that fast, you machine?
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Dec 5, 2014 12:13
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Libluini posted:Holy loving poo poo, I took less then half a minute to correct that error, how could you respond that fast, you machine? this way 
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Dec 5, 2014 12:14
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blowfish posted:Build a wall around Thüringen. vote DIE PARTEI - sie ist sehr gut!
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Dec 5, 2014 12:18
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blowfish posted:this way Duzzy Funlop posted:The end of Germany was foretold by half of my friends when the FDP stopped being a joke (for a while).
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Dec 5, 2014 12:19
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blowfish posted:Build a wall around Thüringen. I would assume they'll do that themselves very soon. Sure, currently nobody has any intention of building a wall but we know how this will turn out.
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Dec 5, 2014 12:24
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Libluini posted:Holy loving poo poo, I took less then half a minute to correct that error, how could you respond that fast, you machine? German efficiency joke goes here.
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Dec 5, 2014 12:55
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Please no humor in the German thread.
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Dec 5, 2014 13:02
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botany posted:Please no humor in the German thread. Humor is that yellow guy on TV, right?
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Dec 5, 2014 13:03
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bignose posted:vote DIE PARTEI - sie ist sehr gut!
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Dec 5, 2014 13:12
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I'm kind of curious what you guys make of this. When I lived in Germany I spent a lot of time in Belgium. I'd take the bus just over the border then hop on a train because SNCB tickets are super cheap. Usually there were only a few Germans waiting with me at the bus stop on the Belgian side. One time when we were coming back, there were like a dozen black guys with duffle bags and backpacks waiting for the bus. I thought that was kinda weird, since 1) there aren't a ton of black guys in Germany, and 2) there aren't many people who use that bus, period. So we all get on the bus. The black guys mostly don't seem to know each other, but one guy sits next to someone who was on the bus already and they started speaking French to each other. None of the other guys were talking. The bus gets one stop into Germany, and a guy walks on with street clothes and had an ID card hanging around his neck. He made the bus driver stop driving. He didn't say who he was or what the deal was, he just went to each of the black guys and demanded their passports. Anyone who didn't have a passport was taken off the bus by two more men in street clothes. The one black guy who was on the bus already had a passport, and was like "wtf?" and visibly shaken because I don't think he spoke German. I think like two of the other guys didn't get kicked off either. So I have a couple questions because I'm not really sure what happened. Who were the men and where did they take the black guys? Is racial profiling (by what I assume were police officers?) legal? I forgot my passport that day and was super relieved I looked German enough not to get questioned. I thought EU countries stopped internal border controls, but I guess they still do checks? Did someone tip the cops off?
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Dec 5, 2014 19:16
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What you saw was probably Schleierfahndung. Those persons were likely federal police in plain clothes. They basically look for foreigners who are likely to be illegal immigrants or criminals. So those people were arrested. There is criticism and some regard it as against the constitution, but it is here to stay. And they weren't tipped off I think. They know where to look out of experience. I see them in uniform all the time at train stations and in plain clothes regularly in trains. They are also active on the highways. If you are black, you are basically guaranteed to be questioned by them by the way. posh spaz posted:Is racial profiling (by what I assume were police officers?) legal? Ahahahahaha. Lucy Heartfilia fucked around with this message at 19:29 on Dec 5, 2014 |
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Dec 5, 2014 19:26
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Regular border checks within the EU have been abolished but that does not mean that the states are not able to do singular checks. Racial profiling is very likely to be illegal. I say likely because despite press articles to the contrary the BVerwG did not actually decide the latest high-publicity case on that matter. (How pragmatic a strict "No racial profiling" approach is when controlling for illegal immigrants from Asian or African countries is explicitly allowed is another question.  )
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Dec 5, 2014 19:30
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Interesting. "Die verfassungsrechtliche Zulässigkeit der Schleierfahndung ist umstritten. Sie wird als verfassungswidrig angesehen, weil sie unverhältnismäßig sei und den Gleichheitssatz verletze. So werden in der polizeilichen Praxis vor allem „ausländisch“ aussehende Personen kontrolliert." That was pretty much my impression of what happened.
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Dec 5, 2014 19:31
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