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The Iroquois are pretty close to vanilla but they don't have any crippling penalties that would make them unplayable. e: I mean obviously having a worse workshop sucks but the amount of damage that does to your production is nowhere near that of "you only have one city". Irony Be My Shield fucked around with this message at 13:14 on Nov 11, 2014 |
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Nov 11, 2014 11:48
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Somebody who is well versed in SP might be fooled in to thinking that Venice is playable in MP, I guess.
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Nov 11, 2014 12:33
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What mod currently available would be the best to get to balance the games Social Policies a bit better than they are with vanilla BNW? Aside from that are there any other balance mods I should consider using? I couldn't care less about achievements, just about having a balanced game.
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Nov 11, 2014 13:39
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Attestant posted:Somebody who is well versed in SP might be fooled in to thinking that Venice is playable in MP, I guess. You rely on so many AI-crutches when playing SP though, I can easily imagine that MP is much more vicious.
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Nov 11, 2014 16:22
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Gort posted:OK, I remade the modpack for the new patch Oh hey, I'm really liking the sound of your modpack, but it seems to conflict with Enhanced User Interface pretty bad. Mainly the city view screen turns in to a black jumbled mess for me, making city management impossible. Any idea what might cause that, or if there's some select component I can just leave out from either mod to make them play nice?
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Nov 11, 2014 16:35
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Attestant posted:Oh hey, I'm really liking the sound of your modpack, but it seems to conflict with Enhanced User Interface pretty bad. Mainly the city view screen turns in to a black jumbled mess for me, making city management impossible. Any idea what might cause that, or if there's some select component I can just leave out from either mod to make them play nice? I bet it's Active AI in Multiplayer. Do multiplayer functionality or achievements matter to you?
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Nov 11, 2014 16:53
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Gort posted:I bet it's Active AI in Multiplayer. Do multiplayer functionality or achievements matter to you? Not really, no. So maybe try installing every other mod manually rather than the full pack, then? (edit) actually both full mod packs seem to have a CityView, InGame and LeaderHead LUA file. These might be the conflicting part of the mods? Attestant fucked around with this message at 18:41 on Nov 11, 2014 |
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Nov 11, 2014 18:15
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Attestant posted:Not really, no. So maybe try installing every other mod manually rather than the full pack, then? Delete CityView.lua out of Gort's modpack, that fixes the problem and doesn't cause any other problems far as I can tell; Enhanced UI just takes over for the City screen when you do that.
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Nov 11, 2014 18:42
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I like it when others find fixes for my shoddy code 
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Nov 11, 2014 19:01
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Could someone explain why the Longhouse is worse than the Workshop? I have some friends that like the Iroquois. They're also p bad so I don't take their word for it.
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Nov 11, 2014 19:22
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Makaris posted:Could someone explain why the Longhouse is worse than the Workshop? I have some friends that like the Iroquois. They're also p bad so I don't take their word for it. Longhouse is +1 hammer per worked forest, while Workshop is +10% hammers overall. Typically most of your forests get chopped down and replaced by farms, which prevents making use of the longhouse bonus. Meanwhile, the workshop's bonus applies to everything that produces hammers, including not just tiles but also buildings (Factories, Forges, Stoneworks, etc.), Engineer specialists (and any specialist with the Statue of Liberty, and unemployed citizens) and I think even production trade routes. A reasonably productive city is going to have at least 30 hammers/turn in the midgame, and there's no way you're going to have 3 forests in range by that point. Later on the discrepancy gets even worse. So basically you're looking at a building that might give a minor hammer upgrade compared to the original when you first build it, but pretty quickly is going to be strictly worse.
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Nov 11, 2014 19:26
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Yeah, if the Longhouse kept the +10% production but also added +1 per forest, it'd be pretty awesome. As it is, it's kind of a so-so tradeoff at best, though it does help more in the early game when you've got more forests around and +10% won't amount to much of anything.
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Nov 11, 2014 20:10
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It’s rare that a city has enough forests for the flat production to outweigh the multiplier, and even when it happens, lumber mills blow. Anyone else’s city is going to be more flexible, able to switch between freshwater farms and mined hills to tilt the balance of growth and production when building settler or wonders or when limited by happiness. The Iroquois are stuck working their food/production tiles in a constant ratio. Taking advantage of the longhouse’s bonus also means that you can’t chop forest to rush important projects, and when you get to the later eras, all your strategic resources are buried under forest that takes several turns to clear. Vil posted:Yeah, if the Longhouse kept the +10% production but also added +1 per forest, it'd be pretty awesome. As it is, it's kind of a so-so tradeoff at best, though it does help more in the early game when you've got more forests around and +10% won't amount to much of anything. Eh, it would still compare unfavourably to Russian UA or Incan UI in my mind. Granted, the Russian UA and Incan UI are really good, but the Iroquois UA and UU remain bad. What I’m saying is that Firaxis has no excuse for denying the Longhouse the multiplier when it would at best put the Iroquois in the middle of the pack.
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Nov 11, 2014 20:17
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:A reasonably productive city is going to have at least 30 hammers/turn in the midgame, and there's no way you're going to have 3 forests in range by that point. Later on the discrepancy gets even worse. It kinda depends on how hilly your map is. Unless there are resources on them, I tend to lumbermill up on Forest/Hills. If you're using settings to reduce the world's age (which is, admittedly, kind of unlikely), I can see Longhouses coming into play then, but yeah, they're pretty lovely, aren't they? Platystemon posted:Eh, it would still compare unfavourably to Russian UA or Incan UI in my mind. Granted, the Russian UA and Incan UI are really good, but the Iroquois UA and UU remain bad.  It would be tied for best with Polders, except you can build them loving everywhere with no restrictions.
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Nov 11, 2014 20:30
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How is the Iroquois UU lovely? Isn't it a resource-free swordsman replacement? That gives you a guaranteed sword rush, which when combined with the forest "roads" means you can invest more early resources to getting a murder machine running. Can't say I've ever played them myself, but the AI seems to do well with Hiawatha. E: I have started in mostly flat forested turndra 6-10 tiles deep before. There's the one and only scenario where the longhouse would shine. For a while. Maybe.
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Nov 12, 2014 03:21
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The one time I randomed Iroquois I got stuck in a giant forest/jungle hybrid that allows room for 2-3 cities to be connected for free, right next to the celts. When i got invaded I destroyed 6 units with one Mohawk because of the insane movement discrepancy. And then I ended up with a ridiculous science bonus from that jungle and went to the moon in 1780. Faster than my Korea game beforehand. I never even thought about longhouses since the free roads/ movement is soooooo good on anything but island/fractal maps. Instead of needing a small force to defend each city, i only ever needed one until I got so far into science I went America style and ended wars for fun while building the spaceship.
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Nov 12, 2014 03:43
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Pvt.Scott posted:How is the Iroquois UU lovely? Isn't it a resource-free swordsman replacement? That gives you a guaranteed sword rush, which when combined with the forest "roads" means you can invest more early resources to getting a murder machine running. Can't say I've ever played them myself, but the AI seems to do well with Hiawatha. The problem with the Mohawk Warrior is that it’s still a swordsman. The UA works for city connections, saving you a few GPT maybe (but the governor hates forests so good luck getting your borders to encompass the tiles you need), but it’s bugged in that a unit that moves from a proper road to a forest “road” consumes two movement points, so you probably want to build roads on forest tiles anyway and get no advantage from it.
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Nov 12, 2014 03:45
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The Iroquois UU isn't bad, but Swordsmen aren't usually a unit you're going to prioritize; taking away the resource requirement doesn't really change that. Being able to focus-fire ranged units (Composite Bowmen in this case) is more flexible, plus of course ranged units don't take damage when they attack 
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Nov 12, 2014 03:46
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Well yeah, but you are going to need meatshields to block people off while your bows stand there and plink (unless you're Genghis), so they may as well be good ones.
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Nov 12, 2014 04:02
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On the other hand, they’re just meat shields, so they might as well be cheap. Spearmen and horsemen can hold the line till pikemen arrive.
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Nov 12, 2014 04:25
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The ultimate problem with Iroquois's UA and UB is that forests are unequivocally terrible tiles that should be cleared ASAP. Attempting to take advantage of their unique traits leaves you in a worse position than if you had pretended they had no abilities at all.
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Nov 12, 2014 06:09
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I kindof like the idea of a civ that gets to keep forest tiles around to defend themselves, maybe it would work if they had some bonus to/some improvement for forests that let you avoid cutting them down.
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Nov 12, 2014 06:39
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You mean like the Celts, who get faith?
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Nov 12, 2014 06:44
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I guess there'd be some overlap, but as far as I can tell with Celts it's just a matter of leaving one forest next to your city up and ignoring it, making forests into an actual viable work tile could turn out differently.
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Nov 12, 2014 06:49
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If Iroquois had some way to add food yields to forest tiles that'd go a long way to making them viable.
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Nov 12, 2014 07:03
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Wouldn't that be in keeping with the aim the civ is going for as well? Just build a hunting camp or something that adds a minor food bonus?
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Nov 12, 2014 09:56
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Man, it's weird to discover I've been doing something wrong for a very long time. I've almost always left most forests around, unless they're freshwater tiles, and just built lumber mills on them. Now I feel dumb. 
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Nov 12, 2014 10:58
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lenoon posted:Wouldn't that be in keeping with the aim the civ is going for as well? Just build a hunting camp or something that adds a minor food bonus? Replace the Longhouse UB with a Longhouse UI that gives +1 Food, +1 Production, +1 Gold on forest tiles. Add a kicker to it somewhere in the Renaissance/Industrial era.
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Nov 12, 2014 15:36
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I would like a mod that creates a check box for "accept embassy requests".
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Nov 12, 2014 15:42
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Attestant posted:Man, it's weird to discover I've been doing something wrong for a very long time. I've almost always left most forests around, unless they're freshwater tiles, and just built lumber mills on them. Am I doing horribly by just putting my workers on auto? I just assumed they would upgrade whatever gave the most.
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Nov 12, 2014 15:47
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THE BAR posted:Am I doing horribly by just putting my workers on auto? I just assumed they would upgrade whatever gave the most. You're certainly not helping yourself, and if you want to move up in difficulty you'll want to take more manual control. The game doesn't really understand that food is the most important tile yield, so it'll do things like put mines on freshwater hills, and it loves to throw down trading posts everywhere. It also has pretty awful prioritization in my experience. Certainly your first worker should be manually controlled, especially if barbarians are a potential issue. You want that guy to be building nothing but farms and resource improvements basically nonstop.
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Nov 12, 2014 15:54
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THE BAR posted:Am I doing horribly by just putting my workers on auto? I just assumed they would upgrade whatever gave the most. Yeah, you're doing horribly by doing this.
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Nov 12, 2014 18:39
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You really should be able to tell it some priorities, at least.
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Nov 12, 2014 18:43
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Gort posted:Yeah, you're doing horribly by doing this. Horribly is a strong word. Less than perfect is more accurate. For the most part the automator does an acceptable job.
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Nov 12, 2014 18:43
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Attestant posted:Man, it's weird to discover I've been doing something wrong for a very long time. I've almost always left most forests around, unless they're freshwater tiles, and just built lumber mills on them. I've been doing the same thing, so at least you're not the only one. 
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Nov 12, 2014 18:45
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Auto workers arent so bad on islands if all you can build is farms. That's the only exception i've found. And I've found lumber mills far more useful than farms in most situations where i have forests. So maybe im just lucky.
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Nov 12, 2014 18:46
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Nasgate posted:Auto workers arent so bad on islands if all you can build is farms. That's the only exception i've found. Unfortunately trading posts can go anywhere farms can and the worker AI will prefer trading posts (massively so during Golden Ages.)
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Nov 12, 2014 18:48
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The worker AI also has a massive love affair with railroads. It will drop goddamn everything to railroad your entire civilization once it can.
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Nov 12, 2014 19:46
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If you could program some proper priorities for automated workers (EG: Farms on everything that'll take a farm) the game would probably get about 20% harder since the AI wouldn't build as many stupid tile improvements. If you removed workers and just directly built improvements with gold the game'd probably be 10% harder just because the AI would stop losing its workers to barbarians.
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Nov 12, 2014 19:50
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The worst thing about AI workers is the loving road systems they set up. I can set up massive road networks connecting every city to the capital almost as quickly as I build cities manually, but with the AI, they take forever and lay it out in retarded places.
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Nov 12, 2014 21:53
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