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Crowsbeak posted:Yeah when our interventions instead lead to slow genocides and ethnic cleanings I really don't see how us leaving would make a difference. I say let Turkey, Iran and Saudi Arabia decide what happens to the region. I hate saying this but Iraq was better off with Saddam. The entire region is super hosed now.
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Nov 19, 2014 20:27
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My Imaginary GF posted:Spread of the intifada to American soil I'd point out that ISIS would probably be just as likely to slaughter Palestine as they would be to help them, but you'd just ignore that. Stop posting bad faith arguments and Clancy Chat. down with slavery posted:Are you on some mission to prove how big of a moron you are to D&D? Doflamingo posted:I hate saying this but Iraq was better off with Saddam. The entire region is super hosed now.  It really was, unfortunately, especially after his strike at Kuwait in 1990 was rebuffed.
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Nov 19, 2014 20:28
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My Imaginary GF posted:Spread of the intifada to American soil Stop playing rainbow six. Doflamingo posted:I hate saying this but Iraq was better off with Saddam. The entire region is super hosed now. Oh you'll get no disagreement from me. At the moment the region looks like it is going to have its own 30 years war.
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Nov 19, 2014 20:29
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Effectronica posted:The idea that this tragedy was a tactical action aimed at liberating Palestine seems improbable, unless you think Palestine is a totalitarian state. http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-C...d-hanged-382106 quote:"The attack in Jerusalem is a reaction to the crime and execution of the martyr al-Ramouni and a reaction to the crimes of the occupation, the Hamas movement is calling for more revenge attacks," Hamas said on its official Al-Aksa TV. Abbas condemned it, at least.
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Nov 19, 2014 20:39
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My Imaginary GF posted:Nor do these threads present any realistic policy alternatives for managing the current situation. Because realistically there isn't any alternative. Sometimes poo poo sucks because the world is an awful place but that doesn't mean we can't identify the problems and criticize. But you're sliding all over the place now and selectively replying to posts and moving your justifications...because either you're not arguing in good faith(shocking in an I/P thread) or just lovely at arguing. I'm going with both. Do better.
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Nov 19, 2014 20:41
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JeffersonClay posted:http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-C...d-hanged-382106 Like we could actually expect Hamas to condemn the attacks, regardless of the Palestinian Authorities stance. They tend never to agree, despite Hamas' prevalence
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Nov 19, 2014 20:42
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JeffersonClay posted:http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-C...d-hanged-382106 That doesn't say that they planned it, duder, and Hamas is pretty weak in the West Bank. But it's the Jerusalem Post, where the cartoons talk about how criticizing the government makes you a phony Jew.
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Nov 19, 2014 20:42
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You didn't ask whether Hamas planned it, you asked whether it was a tactical action designed to end the occupation. Hamas claims it was, and calls for more of the same. And jeez, you could have googled the quote and seen it in 50 other publications rather than just asserting it's Hasbara.
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Nov 19, 2014 20:48
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JeffersonClay posted:You didn't ask whether Hamas planned it, you asked whether it was a tactical action designed to end the occupation. Hamas claims it was, and calls for more of the same. And jeez, you could have googled the quote and seen it in 50 other publications rather than just asserting it's Hasbara. Its not like Israel news media doesn't have a legacy of publishing things that help sway public opinion for Israeli Government. Which might explain why Israel got so pissed at Al-Jazeera for not publishing their pre-screened press releases.
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Nov 19, 2014 20:50
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JeffersonClay posted:You didn't ask whether Hamas planned it, you asked whether it was a tactical action designed to end the occupation. Hamas claims it was, and calls for more of the same. And jeez, you could have googled the quote and seen it in 50 other publications rather than just asserting it's Hasbara. No they didn't. That's a lie/gigantic misinterpretation, plain and simple. They are calling for people to fight back, but that's in line with their strategy of repeatedly provoking Israel into cracking down on Palestine and overextending themselves to the point of collapse, and their goal of discrediting Fatah. And I'm pretty sure that the Moonie Times prints actual news too, but they're still owned by a psychotic cultist.
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Nov 19, 2014 20:51
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Relevant crosspost from the Political Cartoons thread:Fried Chicken posted:The homes of the perpetrators (where their families still live) were seized and are slated for demolition and resettlement in response, btw Choice quotes (just go read the whole article): quote:But on November 6, following two deadly Palestinian attacks in a fortnight, Netanyahu approved plans to knock down or seal up the homes of anyone attacking Israelis as part of a raft of measures to "restore calm" in Jerusalem. Article One, Section Nine of the United States Constitution posted:No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed. You can probably figure out which Palestinian families are going to have their houses destroyed (note that the person who actually committed the crime is already dead in all cases): quote:Three other families in east Jerusalem have now been formally notified that their homes are slated for demolition. 
fade5 fucked around with this message at 21:07 on Nov 19, 2014 |
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Nov 19, 2014 20:59
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CommieGIR posted:Its not like Israel news media doesn't have a legacy of publishing things that help sway public opinion for Israeli Government. Effectronica posted:No they didn't. That's a lie/gigantic misinterpretation, plain and simple. They are calling for people to fight back, but that's in line with their strategy of repeatedly provoking Israel into cracking down on Palestine and overextending themselves to the point of collapse, and their goal of discrediting Fatah. 1) This is a quote from a Hamas spokesman that was broadcast on Hamas' TV channel. Seriously, google the quote if you doubt its veracity. 2) Hamas claims this was an act of resistance against the occupation. Hamas wants more of the same. Their statements directly contradict your assertions. You are wrong.
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Nov 19, 2014 21:02
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JeffersonClay posted:1) This is a quote from a Hamas spokesman that was broadcast on Hamas' TV channel. Seriously, google the quote if you doubt its veracity. 3) This is what Hamas always claims and always does, even if they have no actual connection to it. I'm not doubting you as far as what happened, but it in no way signifies Hamas did it or was even remotely connected to it.
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Nov 19, 2014 21:04
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JeffersonClay posted:1) This is a quote from a Hamas spokesman that was broadcast on Hamas' TV channel. Seriously, google the quote if you doubt its veracity. Hamas claims that this was done because people are mad about the occupation, and specifically because of the recent murder of a Palestinian. Not that this is a grand plan to drive the Israelis out. Not to mention that Hamas did not order the attack, and is not composed of telepaths, so this is their assertion. I said why Hamas calling for more attacks is in line with their stated strategy, and it's not because they believe these attacks will bring about peace. EDIT: In fact, this specific phrasing is traceable only to the Jerusalem Post, so either they're the only ones who bothered to use Hamas's statement, or they translated it specifically in line with their implicit claim that this was a planned attack. Effectronica fucked around with this message at 21:10 on Nov 19, 2014 |
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Nov 19, 2014 21:07
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Even if Hamas didn't do it, Bibi is going to make no effort in making the distinction and blame them anyway.
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Nov 19, 2014 21:24
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CommieGIR posted:Prove. NONE of us want to justify these acts, but these acts are rooted in a deeper problem. This is not an honest argument. Yeah, why would anybody think that the usual suspects are justifying terrorist violence against Israeli civilians? Job Truniht posted:Before we go down this rabbit hole: What in particular about Israel is civilian? As I mentioned before, they are a militarized state with a significant part of the population having a military background. Let's ensure it's not the same "they're attacking civilians" bullshit argument used when Hamas uses rockets since the IDF puts military compounds next to hospitals. See also: basically every other post in this thread.
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Nov 19, 2014 21:34
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The Insect Court posted:Yeah, why would anybody think that the usual suspects are justifying terrorist violence against Israeli civilians? Is collective punishment justified?
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Nov 19, 2014 21:35
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Effectronica posted:Is collective punishment justified? Gotta make space for
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Nov 19, 2014 21:36
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Effectronica posted:Is collective punishment justified? No. Having said that, this guy's family probably knew what was coming the moment he took off in his car with the objective of harming Israelis. It's like The Scorpion and The Frog except both of them are scorpions.
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Nov 19, 2014 21:41
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Does anyone want to bother making that distinction? What constitutes a crime and what constitutes a terrorist attack in Israel? The Israeli government sure loving doesn't.
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Nov 19, 2014 21:43
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Effectronica posted:Hamas claims that this was done because people are mad about the occupation, and specifically because of the recent murder of a Palestinian. Not that this is a grand plan to drive the Israelis out. Not to mention that Hamas did not order the attack, and is not composed of telepaths, so this is their assertion. Human rights watch: http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/11/19/israelpalestine-5-dead-synagogue-attack quote:“Hamas calls for the continuation of revenge operations and stresses that the Israeli occupation bears responsibility for tension in Jerusalem,” the spokesperson said. So you agree that: 1) Hamas has a strategy of deliberate provocation to accelerate the conflict, 2) Hamas praised the attack as resistance to the occupation and 3) Hamas encourages more attacks of similar character. Does it matter what the individual motives of the attackers were? As analogy, if the US government encouraged settlers to flood into Oklahoma and displace (again) native Americans in order to perpetrate genocide, but all the settlers were motivated solely by a desire to farm land, does that somehow mitigate the genocidal intent of the leadership?
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Nov 19, 2014 21:44
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Job Truniht posted:Does anyone want to bother making that distinction? What constitutes a crime and what constitutes a terrorist attack in Israel? The Israeli government sure loving doesn't. You kind of start to realize where the US government got the idea of throwing terrorism out as a broad definition.... JeffersonClay posted:As analogy, if the US government encouraged settlers to flood into Oklahoma and displace (again) native Americans in order to perpetrate genocide, but all the settlers were motivated solely by a desire to farm land, does that somehow mitigate the genocidal intent of the leadership?  "Settlers"
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Nov 19, 2014 21:44
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Job Truniht posted:Does anyone want to bother making that distinction? What constitutes a crime and what constitutes a terrorist attack in Israel? The Israeli government sure loving doesn't. Are you an Arab harming a Jew? You're a terrorist. There, that about covers it. 
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Nov 19, 2014 21:47
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JeffersonClay posted:So you agree that: 1) Hamas has a strategy of deliberate provocation to accelerate the conflict, 2) Hamas praised the attack as resistance to the occupation and 3) Hamas encourages more attacks of similar character. Does it matter what the individual motives of the attackers were? As analogy, if the US government encouraged settlers to flood into Oklahoma and displace (again) native Americans in order to perpetrate genocide, but all the settlers were motivated solely by a desire to farm land, does that somehow mitigate the genocidal intent of the leadership? Genocidal intent is misleading in a sense that it trivializes the motives of any of the anti-occupation organizations. Hamas and Hezbollah are long established political organizations, not just a group of rowdy terrorists, that have very well defined short and long term goals- not just "kill all Jews". As I pointed out earlier, Hamas has been playing Israel pretty hard with their collective punishment card.
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Nov 19, 2014 21:48
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CommieGIR posted:You kind of start to realize where the US government got the idea of throwing terrorism out as a broad definition.... Does this mean you're adopting the Job Truniht position that every Jewish Israeli is a legitimate and non-civilian target? For someone who doesn't want to justify the murder of innocent people, you sure seem enthusiastic to do just that.
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Nov 19, 2014 21:50
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The Insect Court posted:Does this mean you're adopting the Job Truniht position that every Jewish Israeli is a legitimate and non-civilian target? This is about as bad as saying "You don't like Israel? You must be anti-Semitic" Also, that post had nothing to do with what I just said. Nice strawman. Please cite where I said anything of the sort.
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Nov 19, 2014 21:52
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The Insect Court posted:Does this mean you're adopting the Job Truniht position that every Jewish Israeli is a legitimate and non-civilian target? Don't misunderstand. I asked a question in which someone gave a good answer that I agreed with. He made good definitions of what a combatant and what a non-combatant were in Israel, so we could roll with that in future discussion and avoid the nonsense.
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Nov 19, 2014 21:52
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Some conservatives on facebook were gleefully posting a video they claimed was Palestinians getting blown up by the still-active 'suicide belt' on a body of a bomber who got shot down by the IDF. Any truth to that? Google is useless with any combination of the relevant words, so
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Nov 19, 2014 21:55
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Suicide bomber tactics are so 20 years ago. It tells you a little about the age of people making the claim.
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Nov 19, 2014 21:56
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I don't think Hamas is attempting to perpetrate genocide. I do think they bear at least some responsibility when they advocate attacks against civilian targets and people listen to them. I do think it's reasonable to see those attacks as part of a larger strategy to resist occupation, even if the individual attackers have a diverse set of motives.
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Nov 19, 2014 22:00
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The Insect Court posted:Yeah, why would anybody think that the usual suspects are justifying terrorist violence against Israeli civilians? The Insect Court posted:Does this mean you're adopting the Job Truniht position that every Jewish Israeli is a legitimate and non-civilian target? TIC, why do you fight so hard for Israel's honour? They won, they don't need your help. They control the country. They have all the guns. They won the war. So soundly, in fact, that once every few years, they get to roll into Palestine and kill thousands, the majority of them civilians, with near impunity. They face no harsher sanctions than a couple hippies refusing to buy their oranges abroad and maybe a stern tutting from the UN. They have done this three times in the last six years, and it will happen again, many times. Sure, the clock may be ticking against Israel's favour, what with the Palestinian population explosion that is due to really gently caress Israel's poo poo up in a generation or two, but for now, Israel is supreme in the region. What, do you feel that a few people on the internet who disagrees with Israel Über Alles is a grave threat to its security? Your trolling is pretty weak poo poo too. "Dislike the occupation? You're antisemites who want to kill all the jews!!"? Yawn!
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Nov 19, 2014 22:05
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My Imaginary GF posted:If their cause is truly about something more than earthly hatreds and desires, it will survive the test of time.  Not a single violent crime committed by a member of a minority against the majority group, despite active oppression, apartheid, and violent crimes committed by the majority against the minority? For, what, eight years? I see the good old "colonialist's excuse" standard continues to fare well despite its growing age.JeffersonClay posted:I don't think Hamas is attempting to perpetrate genocide. I do think they bear at least some responsibility when they advocate attacks against civilian targets and people listen to them. I do think it's reasonable to see those attacks as part of a larger strategy to resist occupation, even if the individual attackers have a diverse set of motives. How much responsibility does Israel bear for actually carrying out attacks against about a thousand civilian targets during the Gaza invasion?
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Nov 19, 2014 22:07
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Main Paineframe posted:
Might makes right is alive and well.
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Nov 19, 2014 22:09
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SedanChair posted:Why would it be hard? It doesn't seem to be hard to sympathize with people who take carefree selfies in bomb shelters because they know there is no real danger, while voting in psychopaths who kill thousands of innocent people. What would be appropriate behavior while being in bomb shelter?
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Nov 19, 2014 22:09
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Lady Morgaga posted:What would be appropriate behavior while being in bomb shelter? Well, setting up couches and watching the carnage is probably not appropriate considering the danger of being hit by Hamas rockets.... ....oh wait.  You guys are in so much danger! 
CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 22:14 on Nov 19, 2014 |
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Nov 19, 2014 22:11
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FreshlyShaven posted:Israelis have a much higher tolerance for bloodshed than the Brits did. During the First Intifada, when Palestinian society rose up in an act of concentrated civil disobedience, Israel reacted by expelling foreign observers and humanitarian-aid workers, rounding up tens of thousands of activists and electrifying their genitals and plucking out their toenails for crimes such as handing out flyers or attending illegal protests(all protests are illegal for Palestinians in the OT because they are granted no human rights) or merely being named as a subversive by the last torture victim and putting down protests with live ammunition. The government's actions were supported by the Israeli public by wide margins. Wait, what? I'm having a bit of trouble believing Israel would be that disturbingly brutal.
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Nov 19, 2014 22:17
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CommieGIR posted:This is about as bad as saying "You don't like Israel? You must be anti-Semitic" You have this bizarre paranoia about being accused of being an anti-semite, C.G. Lots of the more extreme anti-Zionists who show up in I/P threads do. I'm not sure why, I haven't called you an anti-semite and don't plan to. Still, I have to wonder where that fear and preoccupation of yours comes from. It's clear that there are some posters who have a very intense, very personal hatred of Jewish Israelis that goes beyond mere disagreement with the policies of the current Israeli government. Their regular characterization of many or most Jewish Israelis as bloodthirsty, unfeeling, inhuman, greedy, dishonest, etc., and the almost violent loathing expressed exceeds what you'll see in any other thread, opinions towards ISIS end up being sedate in comparison. I'm simply trying to understand where such intense and near murderous hatred comes from, especially when it's coming from people with no personal connection to the conflict. What motivates such hatred? I'm just asking question here, I don't have any answers and it just seems so bizarre to me 
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Nov 19, 2014 22:17
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http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/11/demolitions-not-stopped-attacks-20141119113711144909.html Like many terrible things, we need to sort out Israel with mockery. You don't really win people over by pointing out that they're the fourth Reich so instead maybe we could just laugh at their attempts at counter-terror. I mean obviously the truth behind counter-terror is that its just state terror used primarily to destroy independence or solidarity movements, but the narrative is that its somehow a smarter form of controlled violence aimed at preventing violence; attacking that narrative is pretty easy because obviously, none of it works to that intention. "Oh, yeah, great loving idea there, brainboxes. Bulldoze some random houses that'll calm things down. Oh you have some violent organised crime groups in your ghettoes, well have you tried killing a couple of thousand of them every couple of years? You HAVE? Well I'll be!" etc. but actually funny. Also stop feeding the trolls, everyone knows MIGF is either trolling or barely sapient, the last 10 pages have been 70% MIGF posts and replies, please stop. There is nothing to be gained by debating with people who haven't gone to the basic effort of educating themselves. You wouldn't have a debate about WW2 with a guy who thought the allies were the ones with the pointy hats.
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Nov 19, 2014 22:18
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Main Paineframe posted:How much responsibility does Israel bear for actually carrying out attacks against about a thousand civilian targets during the Gaza invasion? All of it, or close enough to make no difference.
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Nov 19, 2014 22:23
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The Insect Court posted:It's clear that there are some posters who have a very intense, very personal hatred of Jewish Israelis that goes beyond mere disagreement with the policies of the current Israeli government. Their regular characterization of many or most Jewish Israelis as bloodthirsty, unfeeling, inhuman, greedy, dishonest, etc., and the almost violent loathing expressed exceeds what you'll see in any other thread, opinions towards ISIS end up being sedate in comparison. I'm simply trying to understand where such intense and near murderous hatred comes from, especially when it's coming from people with no personal connection to the conflict. What motivates such hatred? I'm just asking question here, I don't have any answers and it just seems so bizarre to me "You are paranoid of being called an anti-semite, YOUR'RE AN ANTI-SEMITE AREN'T YOU?!" You literally just called us Anti-Semites. Well-Done. Bad faith argument/strawman in this post. And then you use the 'Just Asking Questions' fallacy. Nice. We characterize the Israeli GOVERNMENT as such, not the people. There are plenty of Israelis including prominent Holocaust survivors that know what is going on is wrong, but the Israeli government is largely controlled by the Religious Right. Stop stop living up to your custom title. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 22:25 on Nov 19, 2014 |
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Nov 19, 2014 22:23
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