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Caros posted:Clearly, you haven't been spending time doing anything of good value, you've just been spreading your sickening interpretation of religion. Want to make Jesus happy, go out and do good things for your fellow man instead of trying to scare them by telling them that god will make them suffer forever. Actually, no. Jesus commands us to preach the gospel, and that is what I am doing. You, on the other hand, reject it. If I had to guess, I think JC would come down on my side in this battle. I know that somehow, in your bizarro world, he would favor you, but I am clearly the one advocating for Jesus, his Church, and his message, here.
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Dec 8, 2014 04:27
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Hell sounds like a great place to be, especially when you start with a pistol and 50 bullets.
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Dec 8, 2014 04:30
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Jolly Jumbuck posted:A genuine question: How do you justify the fact that tribes, such as the ancient Native Americans, or precursors to Australian aborigines, who lived in complete isolating and could not possibly have heard of Jesus within a generation of his coming, are doomed to spend eternity in Hell? Do you feel that God has an absolute moral code, and that makes it okay for them to suffer, or is there some other explanation? That's also a good rebuttal to the people who claim that inconsistencies between the Old and New Testaments are because society wasn't advanced enough to receive the full New Testament message. Native Australians especially have culture that stretches back in a stable fashion over thousands of years. If you picked a random Aboriginal group from 4000 years ago they likely would have had a similar level of social development as a group from 250 years ago before Europeans arrived. So with that being the case, it means for the "they weren't ready for the full message" idea to be true the ancient Jewish people (supposedly Gods special chosen ones) must actually have been less developed than other groups around at the time. Either that, or it was wrong for missionaries to spread the word to groups like Australian Aboriginals, since to be consistent you'd have to say they weren't ready for it.
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Dec 8, 2014 04:30
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Kyrie eleison posted:Actually, no. Jesus commands us to preach the gospel, and that is what I am doing. You, on the other hand, reject it. If I had to guess, I think JC would come down on my side in this battle. I know that somehow, in your bizarro world, he would favor you, but I am clearly the one advocating for Jesus, his Church, and his message, here. 11 The Pharisee, standing by himself, was praying thus, ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people: thieves, rogues, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give a tenth of all my income.’ 13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even look up to heaven, but was beating his breast and saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his home justified rather than the other; for all who exalt themselves will be humbled, but all who humble themselves will be exalted.”
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Dec 8, 2014 04:35
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Kyrie eleison posted:Actually, no. Jesus commands us to preach the gospel, and that is what I am doing. You, on the other hand, reject it. If I had to guess, I think JC would come down on my side in this battle. I know that somehow, in your bizarro world, he would favor you, but I am clearly the one advocating for Jesus, his Church, and his message, here. Yet I'm the one who spends twenty hours a week helping at homeless shelters and the food bank.  "What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works." James 2:14-26 ESV Caros fucked around with this message at 04:40 on Dec 8, 2014 |
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Dec 8, 2014 04:37
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Twelve by Pies posted:11 The Pharisee, standing by himself, was praying thus, ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people: thieves, rogues, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give a tenth of all my income.’ 13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even look up to heaven, but was beating his breast and saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his home justified rather than the other; for all who exalt themselves will be humbled, but all who humble themselves will be exalted.” I will happily humble myself to God, but not to you. Caros posted:Yet I'm the one who spends twenty hours a week helping at homeless shelters and the food bank. And by posting this, you have received your reward. Congratulations.
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Dec 8, 2014 04:38
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Kyrie eleison posted:I will happily humble myself to God, but not to you. Didn't read the last verse, huh? That's okay, I don't expect Catholics to actually read their bibles, why read it yourself when you have a bunch of other people to tell you that no, it actually doesn't say what it says.
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Dec 8, 2014 04:40
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No, seriously, you need to address you saying that the Jews deserved the holocaust. I'm not going to let you just pretend that you didn't say that.
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Dec 8, 2014 04:41
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Twelve by Pies posted:Didn't read the last verse, huh? That's okay, I don't expect Catholics to actually read their bibles, why read it yourself when you have a bunch of other people to tell you that no, it actually doesn't say what it says. Listen: I have read the entire thing. I said this in the OP. Who What Now posted:No, seriously, you need to address you saying that the Jews deserved the holocaust. I'm not going to let you just pretend that you didn't say that. Whatever you say, Godwin.
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Dec 8, 2014 04:42
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Kyrie eleison posted:I will not accept it, because it is wrong and against the traditional teaching. We have already discussed this fully. Go needle someone else. Of what? When? Who was she in the first place? And again: you'd think "Joseph's first wife/marriage" would be mentioned somewhere, at least in passing. Despite what I said about "needling", I am legitimately curious about this. It's obviously a fairly important Catholic teaching, and it's also apparently a really ancient controversy: Antidicomarianite posted:The term Antidicomarianites was a term used by defenders of the doctrine of the perpetual virginity of Mary during the 3rd-5th centuries. The term was applied to Christians who believed that the brothers and sisters of Jesus mentioned in the New Testament were not children of Joseph by an earlier marriage, as had become orthodoxy by the 3rd Century, but the younger children of Joseph and Mary after the birth of Jesus. There is no evidence that these Christians considered themselves to be "against Mary" in any sense, except of her being the "Queen of Heaven", which Roman Catholics and the Orthodox Christians used as a title for her, a reflection of the biblical image in Revelation 12. 
fade5 fucked around with this message at 04:46 on Dec 8, 2014 |
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Dec 8, 2014 04:42
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While I'm at this I'm going to put up a few biblical quotes that I think are pretty important.Matthew 15:8-9 posted:"‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’” James 2:14-26, in case you missed my edit posted:"What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works." 1 Corinthians 13:13 posted:So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love. I'd thought the question rather implicit earlier, but I'm curious. Kyrie, do you actually perform any good works other than proselytizing your faith?
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Dec 8, 2014 04:47
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Kyrie eleison posted:Listen: I have read the entire thing. I said this in the OP. Bullshit, you can't possibly have read that part where it says "those who exalt themselves will be humbled" because if you did you wouldn't be exalting yourself in this thread saying how you're totally sure Jesus would side with you and how we're all horrible sociopaths. Alternatively I guess you could have read it and are just ignoring it, but then Jesus wouldn't be on your side, so you're kinda hosed either way.
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Dec 8, 2014 04:47
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Twelve by Pies posted:Bullshit, you can't possibly have read that part where it says "those who exalt themselves will be humbled" because if you did you wouldn't be exalting yourself in this thread saying how you're totally sure Jesus would side with you and how we're all horrible sociopaths. Right. Because what Jesus really wants is for people to dismantle and reject everything about Christianity, and use his words against his loyal followers in an attempt to shame them into submission. Sorry, won't work. Novices defending the faith might crumble when you quote sacred passages you yourself ignore, but this isn't my first rodeo. Caros posted:I'd thought the question rather implicit earlier, but I'm curious. Kyrie, do you actually perform any good works other than proselytizing your faith? Yes.
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Dec 8, 2014 04:52
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Kyrie eleison posted:Right. Because what Jesus really wants is for people to dismantle and reject everything about Christianity, and use his words against his loyal followers in an attempt to shame them into submission. Where did I dismantle and reject everything about Christianity? Ah, you might have had me on ignore, but I'm not an atheist. I even explicitly explained that I'm not an atheist and do not feel comfortable being one. So no, you don't get to do the "Well you're not Christian so you can't even quote scripture at me" because it doesn't work when I am one. I'm not Catholic, that much is true, but even your own Pope has said that non-Catholic Christians are still Christians even if in his eyes we're not doing it right and should probably convert.
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Dec 8, 2014 04:56
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quote:And by posting this, you have received your reward. Congratulations. I'm not intending to brag, but to shame you. You sing the high praises of your faith but I suspect that you don't follow through where it matters. You talk the talk but don't walk the walk as well as a morally bankrupt atheist. Of course while we're talking about arrogance and your argumentative style... Proverbs 27:2 posted:Let another praise you, and not your own mouth; a stranger, and not your own lips. Timothy 2:24 posted:And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil. James 3:17 posted:But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial and sincere. I especially like the second one seeing as you've been a massive rear end in a top hat for large parts of this thread.  quote:Yes. Such as? I'm not asking you to brag by the way, I'm curious because I really don't believe you.
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Dec 8, 2014 04:59
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Caros posted:I'm not intending to brag, but to shame you. You sing the high praises of your faith but I suspect that you don't follow through where it matters. You talk the talk but don't walk the walk as well as a morally bankrupt atheist. Of course while we're talking about arrogance and your argumentative style... Shut up, hypocrite. I don't need you to shame me. Shame on you, for acting like that is your role here, for making presumptions about my good works, for using your own good works to try to shame others. Pathetic. Like I said, you have received your reward for your charity.
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Dec 8, 2014 05:01
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Caros posted:Of course while we're talking about arrogance and your argumentative style... Don't forget these verses: If I speak in the tongues of mortals and of angels, but do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 4 Love is patient; love is kind; love is not envious or boastful or arrogant 5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful
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Dec 8, 2014 05:01
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Kyrie eleison posted:Shut up, hypocrite. I don't need you to shame me. Shame on you, for acting like that is your role here, for making presumptions about my good works, for using your own good works to try to shame others. Pathetic. Like I said, you have received your reward for your charity. Timothy 2:24 posted:And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil. Biblical scholar and true follower of Christ ladies and gentlemen. What I enjoy about this post is how much it clearly bothers you. You're less charitable than me, aren't you? For all your bluster you actually give less of a poo poo about taking care of your fellow man than some heathen atheist. That is fantastic. You are right tho, I have recieved the reward for my charity, which is nothing. Charity given in search of a reward isn't really charity is it? Somehow I suspect that you view any charity you do engage in as part of your biblical subway stamp card to the afterlife. Caros fucked around with this message at 05:05 on Dec 8, 2014 |
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Dec 8, 2014 05:01
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Kyrie eleison posted:Shut up, hypocrite. I don't need you to shame me. Shame on you, for acting like that is your role here, for making presumptions about my good works, for using your own good works to try to shame others. Pathetic. Like I said, you have received your reward for your charity. dude you gotta hang level when pressed if you want to maintain this troll
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Dec 8, 2014 05:02
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Kyrie, simple little question. I assume that calling a priests pedos is totally out of bounds for a good Catholic like you, right?
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Dec 8, 2014 05:03
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Caros posted:Biblical scholar and true follower of Christ ladies and gentlemen. You still aren't getting it, are you? "When you give alms, do not blow a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets to win the praise of others. Amen, I say to you, they have received their reward." - Matthew 6:2 Your charity is earning you nothing in heaven because you boast about it.
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Dec 8, 2014 05:05
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Kyrie eleison posted:Your charity is earning you nothing in heaven because you boast about it. And because you do not speak with love, you are a noisy gong, a clanging cymbal, and you are nothing, by the words of St. Paul.
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Dec 8, 2014 05:07
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Kyrie eleison posted:You still aren't getting it, are you? You still aren't getting it, are you? I don't believe in heaven, at all. The only reason I am bringing up my charity was as a contrast to the fact that you, the religious man, do little to nothing for your fellow man beyond simply screaming at random passerby in an attempt to convert them to your faith. While I will happily admit that I'm proud that I am able to devote time to people that need help, I'm not at all doing it to get into God's good graces because that would be sort of a contradictory point even if he did exist. Doing charity for a reward in the afterlife is not charity, its just deferred payment. Good job ignoring the biblical quote that points out how you shouldn't be a huge rear end in a top hat by the way, hey have one more. quote:Judge not, that ye be not judged. Caros fucked around with this message at 05:12 on Dec 8, 2014 |
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Dec 8, 2014 05:10
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Twelve by Pies posted:And because you do not speak with love, you are a noisy gong, a clanging cymbal, and you are nothing, by the words of St. Paul. Who says I am not speaking out of love? What am I doing here? Aren't you the people who say, "if you really believed in Hell you would try to save everyone?" And here I am, trying to save D&D. I may not take a tone of weakness, or of apology, but neither did Our Blessed Lord, and neither did Paul, even in his loftier passages on love. Now, are you loving me right now? Are you criticizing me because you love me? Do you see how that is exactly what I am doing?
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Dec 8, 2014 05:15
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Caros posted:You still aren't getting it, are you? NO JESUS SAID I CAN JUDGE YOU WHY DON'T YOU LOVE JESUS YET
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Dec 8, 2014 05:16
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Out of curiosity, Kyrie, has it occured to you that your vile argumentative style wherein you insult vast swaths of people and tell them they are going to suffer for eternity is counterproductive? I mean, even ignoring biblical quotes that ask you to be gentle with people who do not believe, there isn't a single person in this thread who is swayed by your arguments. You are, in fact, actively turning people way from your point of view by way of your zealous nature. I personally, have had my view of the Catholic church vastly improved by Pope Francis because he is a humble, gentle man who lives by the actual actions of the man and god he purports to worship. If I were ever going to be swayed into attending a religious ceremony, or being converted, It would be by the style of someone like Pope Francis. So are you really doing anything good by 'spreading the word' in the fashion you have chosen? The whole point of preaching the gospel is to save people, and you are actively driving people away from god. Does that concern you?
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Dec 8, 2014 05:16
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Kyrie eleison posted:Who says I am not speaking out of love? All the people you called sociopaths for one.
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Dec 8, 2014 05:16
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Caros posted:Out of curiosity, Kyrie, has it occured to you that your vile argumentative style wherein you insult vast swaths of people and tell them they are going to suffer for eternity is counterproductive? Does it concern you that you are turning people away from atheism? Literally The Worst posted:All the people you called sociopaths for one. I described being sociopathic as the human condition without God, sorry you took it so personally. "If there is no God, everything is permitted"
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Dec 8, 2014 05:20
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Kyrie eleison posted:Does it concern you that you are turning people away from atheism? Not at all, even if this were true, why would it? If people find happiness in religion all the more power to them and yet more power if it turns out that god actually does exist. I'm agnostic, I believe in the great 'What if?' If religion brings someone peace and keeps them from killing themselves, like it apparently did with you, then good for you. Now how about you do some introspection and actually answer the question. Because unlike your scathing rebuttal, my statement is based in actual fact. There isn't a person in this thread who has expressed any interest in what you've been selling, and there are plenty of people who are actively hostile towards you. Since you are speaking as a catholic, people who have a bad opinion of you are going to have their opinions lowered, however slightly, towards what you believe is the one true path to salvation. Through your method of argument you are not only failing to bring people into the arms of Christ, but you may in fact actively be working in the service of Satan, unwittingly though it may be. You are driving people away from salvation. Have you considered taking a tact of argument wherein you do not alienate every single person who reads your work. Perhaps one more in line with biblical teachings of kindness, love, forgiveness and humility as opposed to stating that roughly six billion of the world's inhabitants are sociopaths (or at least partially since they don't follow the 'true' god)
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Dec 8, 2014 05:29
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Kyrie eleison posted:Who says I am not speaking out of love? quote:Now, are you loving me right now? Are you criticizing me because you love me? Do you see how that is exactly what I am doing? I'm criticizing you because I feel you're vastly misunderstanding the book you claim to have read. Look, I'll admit. I have not read the entire bible. I've read a lot of it, but not the entire thing. That poo poo in say, Numbers, is just too dull to get through. So I'm not saying "I'm a better Christian than you" (not that you'd believe me anyway, I'm not Catholic, which makes me a heretic in your eyes). What I am attempting to do, rather than try and convert you (you're clearly not receptive to what others are saying, which I'm not using as an insult, but you're not going to take the word of anybody here over the Pope, am I wrong?), is to show other people that no, not all Christians act like you do, and in fact many verse in the bible are directly opposed to how you act. It's more that I'm defending myself rather than trying to criticize you. I'm saying "Look, here's what the bible says, Kyrie isn't following it, don't judge me by how he acts."
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Dec 8, 2014 05:30
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drat people do you still think Kyrie isn't a disturbed troll?
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Dec 8, 2014 05:31
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Sharkie posted:drat people do you still think Kyrie isn't a disturbed troll? Nah, I'm honestly pretty convinced. I'm also bored. 
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Dec 8, 2014 05:33
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Sharkie posted:drat people do you still think Kyrie isn't a disturbed troll? I'm 50/50 between TT levels of dedication to his gimmick without a fraction of the skill and just batshit nuts
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Dec 8, 2014 05:34
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Sharkie posted:drat people do you still think Kyrie isn't a disturbed troll? Whether he is or isn't makes no difference to me (but I'm pretty sure he is). I'm still going to take his posts at face value and just roll with it. I mean even if he isn't personally being sincere there are people out there like him so it's good practice if I run into someone who is genuine.
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Dec 8, 2014 05:36
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Sharkie posted:drat people do you still think Kyrie isn't a disturbed troll? Disturbed? Absolutely. A troll? No, he's been at this long enough now that I'm more or less certain that he's the real deal. It'd be sad, if it wasn't so laughable.
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Dec 8, 2014 05:43
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So, how come God is fussy about whether you believe in him or not? Because, I mean, Jesus had some neat ideas about being good to other people and that, but apparently praising and praying and telling other people that God is really good is more important? Because God will apparently forgive you if you're a horrible person, so long as you are duly regretful and ask Him nicely, but if you're the most upstanding person in the world, if you aren't worshipful of God, you go to hell. Doesn't that seem a bit off to you? I mean, that's always been a bit off to me. Seems like a hard thing to really justify. Like this off the front page: Kyrie eleison posted:Yes, like Abraham, out of obedience to God, and trusting in his Will; and like with Abraham, God would never require evil from me, only the evidence that my loyalty is so great that I would be willing to commit evil for His sake. Why is God really hung up on what you think of Him rather than what you do for the cause? OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 05:53 on Dec 8, 2014 |
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Dec 8, 2014 05:44
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Caros posted:Not at all, even if this were true, why would it? If people find happiness in religion all the more power to them and yet more power if it turns out that god actually does exist. I'm agnostic, I believe in the great 'What if?' If religion brings someone peace and keeps them from killing themselves, like it apparently did with you, then good for you. Dude, this is D&D. People here hate Catholicism and Christianity. I knew this going in. I didn't expect a warm or even-handed response, and it's no surprise that people ended up attacking me. This is entirely what I expected. What I am interested in doing is gaining practice and skill in arguing for the faith, rebutting common critiques, and also serving as a guideline for others, because face it, fellow Christians, the hippie-dippie approach is not working, nor is it the approach of Christ. Leave the pastoral stuff to the Pope, it's up to us to educate people and hold the line. Educate yourself on orthodox teachings, don't apologize, and speak with the Spirit. These guys and their little theories are no match for the Truth. Atheists love to make fools of themselves, just give them the rope. I think some people, in realizing that the faith can be competently held and defended, might have their views changed. I am also interested in testing the current tolerance levels of the authorities towards traditional Christian ideas. Honestly, it's more welcoming than I expected on that front.
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Dec 8, 2014 05:45
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Kyrie eleison posted:Dude, this is D&D. People here hate Catholicism and Christianity. I knew this going in. I didn't expect a warm or even-handed response, and it's no surprise that people ended up attacking me. This is entirely what I expected. We don't attack you because you're Catholic or Christian. We attack you because you're an aggressively offensive simpleton. quote:I think some people, in realizing that the faith can be competently held and defended, might have their views changed. So when will you get around to doing that, then?
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Dec 8, 2014 05:49
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Kyrie eleison posted:I am also interested in testing the current tolerance levels of the authorities towards traditional Christian ideas. Honestly, it's more welcoming than I expected on that front. This is, at least partially, one of those things where crazy people get obsessed about somethingawful mods, isn't it?
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Dec 8, 2014 05:53
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Kyrie eleison posted:Educate yourself on orthodox teachings, don't apologize, and speak with the Spirit. These guys and their little theories are no match for the Truth. Atheists love to make fools of themselves, just give them the rope. I have educated myself on orthodox teachings, that's part of why I'm not Catholic.  I'm also not interested in seeing atheists make fools of themselves. I'm much more interested in trying to help others. The parable of the sheep and the goats and all that.
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Dec 8, 2014 05:55
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