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In America, the way we dealt with the assimilation issue was to forcibly remove Native Americans children from their parents, send them to English-only boarding schools, beat them if they spoke their native tongue, then have white families adopt them. Maybe the CSU could try that with the Turks? It wouldn't matter what language is spoken in the home then.
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Dec 7, 2014 15:48
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The language Gestapo already exists... IN THIS VERY THREAD.
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Dec 7, 2014 16:00
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posh spaz posted:In America, the way we dealt with the assimilation issue was to forcibly remove Native Americans children from their parents, send them to English-only boarding schools, beat them if they spoke their native tongue, then have white families adopt them. Don't worry. We "got this".
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Dec 7, 2014 16:17
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Cingulate posted:How cute. A Yankee giving advice on how to be racist ... to Germans. Hey now, we INVENTED eugenics! The Stanford-Binet IQ test was developed to identify mental defectives, since the super retards were easy to identify, but there were lots of low-functioning defectives that kept breeding with impunity. The IQ test was a way to identify and sterilize these defectives. I know Hitler was a big fan, and Harry Laughlin got an honorary degree from Universität Heidelberg for his work on the "science of racial cleansing." edit: In case it's not obvious, I don't actually support eugenics. I just think it's incredibly hosed up how Americans are basically oblivious to our history of eugenics, and the direct role we played in developing eugenics programs in Nazi Germany, including the Rockefeller Foundation funding and training Mengele before he went to Auschwitz. posh spaz fucked around with this message at 16:31 on Dec 7, 2014 |
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Dec 7, 2014 16:24
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Gatac posted:Insofar as we're tackling problems with the integration of immigrants into German society, there are many bigger issues that, if tackled, could benefit more people, but they're almost all on the side of society: starting from high-level issues like discrimination against immigrants and general racism in everyday life to more detailed things like providing helpful translations of relevant laws and regulations in multiple languages, revisiting the way we grant work permits to people who are otherwise staying here for years completely dependent on the state as well as the opaque and unfair process for deportation. Gatac posted:On the other hand, forcing them darn furreiners to speak the Sprache der Dichter und Denker not only seeks to establish the superiority of our Kultur, but also places the onus squarely on those we can other and exclude, who have no voice of their own in the political discourse. However, good luck for changing germany into some kind of melting pot society, you will need it. icantfindaname posted:Why should people be forced to participate in the 'normal life' of a new society? If they want to, clearly they will, however choosing not to seems to be an unacceptable choice to you.  that are the meatier topics of cultural conflict: womens rights, forced marriages and the whole parallelgesellschaften thing. Ignoring those topics ("whatever they do, its ok because its normal for them") or denying that they even exist is fairly naive, and IMO highly dangerous in the long run. Gatac posted:You could make an argument against immigration solely based on 'well we can't let anyone who wants to come here come here' but that's not the argument you're making, and anyways Germany's demographics are such that cheap immigrant labor is an economic positive from any angle. Attracting highly qualified people would be more sensible, but I guess I can understand why those do not want to come here. icantfindaname posted:The reasoning behind making people speak the language is patently "people are choosing to be Different Than Us, and we don't like it one bit". Deutschland den Deutschen, in other words. icantfindaname posted:Outside of situations where it would cause economic hardship people have a right to freedom of movement, but Germany does not have a right to impose its way of life on others. icantfindaname posted:You don't have a right to ensure your neighbors are the Right Kind of People, sorry  icantfindaname posted:TL/DR Nation-states are an affront to God and the sooner they die the sooner I can piss on their grave Edit: vvvv Good to hear I guess. Nektu fucked around with this message at 20:54 on Dec 7, 2014 |
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Dec 7, 2014 20:42
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Nektu posted:Thats the reasoning of the CSU. My reasoning was more pragmatic: at the moment you absolutely need german as a language to be successful here. Thats a fact. Ignore it at your own peril. It's only anecdotal, but I personally know successful people in Germany that managed to not learn the language for over 7 years.
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Dec 7, 2014 20:45
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Nektu posted:Attracting highly qualified people would be more sensible, but I guess I can understand why those do not want to come here. I have an MBA, I speak decent German, my wife has a bachelor's in English education. We wanted to stay in Germany but I couldn't find any company willing to sponsor me for a work permit, and I didn't qualify for the Blue card because I didn't get any suitable job offers. If Germany had some sort of points-based immigration system I would've had a good chance of staying. Honj Steak posted:It's only anecdotal, but I personally know successful people in Germany that managed to not learn the language for over 7 years. This is what pissed me off about living in Germany and immigration to EU generally. I actually cared about integrating, put in a lot of work to learn the language, and I wasn't allowed to stay, while EU citizens with no education and no language skills can live wherever they want (with a few constraints). There is also an exception for graduates of Germany universities from the Vorrangsprüfung, and it pissed me off how many students went to Germany for the free school, only took classes in English, refused to learn German, then got preferential treatment over me in their job search. posh spaz fucked around with this message at 21:02 on Dec 7, 2014 |
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Dec 7, 2014 20:56
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niethan posted:It's so transparent because nobody ever talks about schiebing ab criminal germans. Maybe we could revoke citizenship from undesirable elements of German society to change that, ja?
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Dec 7, 2014 22:07
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Randler posted:Maybe we could revoke citizenship from undesirable elements of German society to change that, ja? Better idea: We should build prisons in every little Kaff in Germany, so we can transport every criminal back to the place he/she came from!
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Dec 7, 2014 22:12
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Nektu posted:However, good luck for changing germany into some kind of melting pot society, you will need it. We don't care who you are or how you look. As long as you follow the Leitkultur, you are a
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Dec 8, 2014 01:50
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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I'm sure we will get some hilarious anti-turkish TV spot out of this to make fun of, so I don't know why everyone is complaining. Of course, doing something substantial like de-segregating our 1950's Alabama-style school system would have been nice too, but I think this brilliant idea is enough work for one election cycle. They certainly have my vote now.
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Dec 8, 2014 09:58
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waitwhatno posted:I'm sure we will get some hilarious anti-turkish TV spot out of this to make fun of, so I don't know why everyone is complaining. Die PARTEI needs to watch out, or the joke party vote will be split 
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Dec 8, 2014 10:38
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"Aus den privaten Lebensgewohnheiten hat sich eine Partei herauszuhalten." - Horst Seehofer about the Greens wanting to introduce a vegetarian day Telling people which language to talk is certainly keeping out of citizens' private lifes. gently caress the CSU.
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Dec 8, 2014 11:29
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blowfish posted:We don't care who you are or how you look. As long as you follow the Leitkultur, you are a
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Dec 8, 2014 19:01
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Nektu posted:No need for sarcasm. What do you think the worldwide promotion of human rights, democracy, womens- and LGBR-rights is if not the attempt to impose our (and americas) Leitkultur onto the rest of the world? I think it's good to admit this. I don't condone radical Islam, but it's ridiculous to try to impose our values on other people, then shrug and go "Hey, we're not attacking your religion, just your deeply-held beliefs and culture."
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Dec 8, 2014 19:12
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posh spaz posted:I think it's good to admit this. I don't condone radical Islam, but it's ridiculous to try to impose our values on other people, then shrug and go "Hey, we're not attacking your religion, just your deeply-held beliefs and culture." The counterargument being that going to a western country is a package deal where you either live with terrible things like womens' rights, non closeted gays and separation of church and state or go back home. e: and regarding "attacking your religion": if you think your religion forbids womens' rights, gays, and mandates a theocracy then, hey, sucks to be you. Most people where you want to go disagree with you, it's you who insists on going, deal with it. suck my woke dick fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Dec 8, 2014 |
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Dec 8, 2014 19:19
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blowfish posted:The counterargument being that going to a western country is a package deal where you either live with terrible things like womens' rights, non closeted gays and separation of church and state or go back home and enjoy life there. My point was more generally about "The War on Islam," culturally and militarily. Is it the right thing to do? I think so. Tolerance doesn't mean being a doormat. I believe you should stand up to what you believe in. We just have to admit that standing up for what we believe in inspires others to hurt us. I absolutely agree if you're in a country you should respect their rules, and if you want to emigrate to a country, you should have to support their values. I'm pretty sure most countries require you to pledge your allegiance to democracy/federalism/the rule of law/whatever to obtain citizenship. posh spaz fucked around with this message at 19:28 on Dec 8, 2014 |
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Dec 8, 2014 19:24
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posh spaz posted:My point was more generally about "The War on Islam," culturally and militarily. Is it the right thing to do? I think so. Tolerance doesn't mean being a doormat. I believe you should stand up to what you believe in. We just have to admit that standing up for what we believe in inspires others to hurt us. I object to the term "The War on Islam", since there are a lot of shitheads in other religions, too. And those shitheads also don't like things like basic human rights or equality of men and women. Let's call it "The War on Shitheadism", this is less racist and far more accurate.
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Dec 8, 2014 19:57
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blowfish posted:The counterargument being that going to a western country is a package deal where you either live with terrible things like womens' rights, non closeted gays and separation of church and state or go back home. 
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Dec 8, 2014 20:01
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We can't even decide among ourselves what "support our values" means on a scale roughly from "welcome aboard, don't be a dick" to "welcome to Germany, here are your Lederhosen, church is in the morning, Helene Fischer in the evening."
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Dec 8, 2014 20:07
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Libluini posted:I object to the term "The War on Islam", since there are a lot of shitheads in other religions, too. And those shitheads also don't like things like basic human rights or equality of men and women. Let's call it "The War on Shitheadism", this is less racist and far more accurate. By population, there are more muslims than most other religions put together. Probably still true if you only count middle east theocratic shitholes and not ~moderate~ majority-muslim countries nobody has a problem with. Also something something monolithic groups. My Lovely Horse posted:We can't even decide among ourselves what "support our values" means on a scale roughly from "welcome aboard, don't be a dick" to "welcome to Germany, here are your Lederhosen, church is in the morning, Helene Fischer in the evening." Hence my No True Roman comment
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Dec 8, 2014 20:10
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Libluini posted:I object to the term "The War on Islam", since there are a lot of shitheads in other religions, too. I think people who believe in radical Islam sincerely believe "The War on Islam" is real. I do not personally support them or that worldview, but it is true some people perceive it to be real. Libluini posted:Let's call it "The War on Shitheadism", this is less racist and far more accurate. That's not more accurate at all, although I wish it were. There is not seriously any concerted effort to confront radical Christianity in the west. In fact, many shithead Christians try (sometimes successfully) to enforce their own religious beliefs in the west, while in every western country stuff like "Sharia law" is loudly and pretty uniformly condemned. Please don't misinterpret my views as being "gegen Multikulti." I do feel conflicted, because I really want to support cultural relativism and personal freedom. I think people should be able to make their own decisions about how to live their life. But also I feel there are some lines that shouldn't be crossed, and society/law should protect the weak, and even people who I hate. posh spaz fucked around with this message at 20:18 on Dec 8, 2014 |
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Dec 8, 2014 20:11
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posh spaz posted:In fact, many shithead Christians try (sometimes successfully) to enforce their own religious beliefs in the west, ...and write anti gay laws for developing countries (  world leaders in exporting bullshit )
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Dec 8, 2014 20:16
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Certain practices and attitudes found in Muslim societies will not be tolerated in western countries, this is why we're going to force your children to abandon their native language and only speak GermanNektu posted:Careful, the thread may turn on you any second now The fabled German passive-aggression is seeming more real by the minute here
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Dec 8, 2014 20:46
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icantfindaname posted:Certain practices and attitudes found in Muslim societies will not be tolerated in western countries, this is why we're going to force your children to abandon their native language and only speak German icantfindaname posted:The fabled German passive-aggression is seeming more real by the minute here
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Dec 8, 2014 21:01
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icantfindaname posted:Certain practices and attitudes found in Muslim societies will not be tolerated in western countries, this is why we're going to force your children to abandon their native language and only speak German It's pretty generous to assume they're smart enough to learn German. I thought you guys might get a kick out of this, if you haven't seen it before. It's from Benjamin Franklin, talking about how German immigrants will ruin America. "Those who come hither are generally of the most ignorant Stupid Sort of their own Nation…and as few of the English understand the German Language, and so cannot address them either from the Press or Pulpit, ’tis almost impossible to remove any prejudices they once entertain…Not being used to Liberty, they know not how to make a modest use of it…I remember when they modestly declined intermeddling in our Elections, but now they come in droves, and carry all before them, except in one or two Counties...In short unless the stream of their importation could be turned from this to other colonies, as you very judiciously propose, they will soon so out number us, that all the advantages we have will not in My Opinion be able to preserve our language, and even our Government will become precarious. Why should Pennsylvania, founded by the English, become a Colony of Aliens, who will shortly be so numerous as to Germanize us instead of our Anglifying them, and will never adopt our Language or Customs, any more than they can acquire our Complexion."
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Dec 8, 2014 21:09
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posh spaz posted:It's pretty generous to assume they're smart enough to learn German. 
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Dec 8, 2014 21:20
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This honestly seems pretty settled to me, at least insofar we're talking about immigration to Germany. Freiheitlich-demokratische Grundordnung, human rights as outlined by the Grundgesetz, that is the minimum consensus I expect from anyone and everyone who wants to live here. You can go in different directions while keeping this core, but you can't throw out the parts of it you don't like. If you try to, you're a jerk and wrong. On the other hand, once we've agreed on this, I do not give a drat what you do in your home. What language you speak, who you love and how you organize your life and your family, those are all things that the state should stay out of. (The sound of squealing brakes as I hasten to add: as long as you are not infringing on the human rights of another person. I shouldn't have to add this, since we're already positing adherence to the Grundgesetz, but just to be clear. Be who you want to be, but keep it safe sane and consensual, eh?) I mean, I get that this is the kind of wide-eyed idealism that can be easily nitpicked to death a thousand ways, but I keep coming back to the idea that within this metaphorical body of society there are a few things that make up its skeleton, and these are the axioms upon which that society is built. You can't go around rejecting those fundamental ideas without damaging the society built on them, just like you can't go adding more bone until the whole body ossifies. (No dual-language pun intended by this Ossi.) If you want to fundamentally change how our society works, you need to change the Grundgesetz. Work on building the consensus for it. Can't get it? Too bad for your plans. This is what the CSU doesn't seem to understand, or at least pretends not to in the hopes that we'll forget it, too: a minority, no matter how loud and connected, cannot force everyone else to agree with them. There's a difference between the temporary rule of a simple majority (good enough for your day to day governance) and trying to actively and semi-permanently change how we define our society. If you think that such change is too hard and that surely this "crisis" warrants that we bend the rules to deal with it, you've missed the reason why the people who drafted our Until-we-get-a-real-Constitution Grundgesetz made it so difficult to change. If you know why, ignore it and try to push your agenda through the back door, you deserve to be mocked and vocally opposed. So it's not a war on shitheadism, as I see it. It's a struggle against those that deny the bare essentials of what makes us a society, not just a clump of roughly 80 million people watching Wer Wird Millionär? and complaining about the Energiewende. The question of whether our values are worth spreading or even whether we should try to actively export them, though, those are far murkier waters. I might just admit that I see no clear right answer to that one.
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Dec 8, 2014 21:30
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Gatac posted:This honestly seems pretty settled to me, at least insofar we're talking about immigration to Germany. Freiheitlich-demokratische Grundordnung, human rights as outlined by the Grundgesetz, that is the minimum consensus I expect from anyone and everyone who wants to live here. What does Freiheitlich-demokratische Grundordnung entail? I'd wager that to most people, Germans and immigrants alike, it is just some empty phrase learned by rote memory, with maybe one or two guys looking it up in Wikipedia a few years ago. As an aside, was we're mentioning the Grundgesetz, it should be pretty obvious even to the CSU that proscribing which language to speak at home doesn't work with the Grundgesetz.
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Dec 8, 2014 21:33
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what does the Grundgesetz say about revoking citizens' passports without due process?
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Dec 8, 2014 21:49
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icantfindaname posted:what does the Grundgesetz say about revoking citizens' passports without due process? It'd probably disagree. But it's totally cool with revoking passports while having due process. 
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Dec 8, 2014 21:51
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That was sarcasm, in case it wasn't obvious, since later on, I talked about how Ben Franklin thought Germans were too stupid to learn English. At least German racists assume filthy immigrants can learn German. posh spaz fucked around with this message at 21:59 on Dec 8, 2014 |
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Dec 8, 2014 21:55
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Randler posted:It'd probably disagree. It does raise the interesting question what would happen if a person who had their passports revoked attempted to leave the country illegally. Would the state have to stop them, using lethal force if necessary? Because, uh, I'm pretty sure there are other judgments that concern a German state preventing its citizens from leaving without proper documentation, and they were all very clear...
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Dec 9, 2014 00:42
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ArchangeI posted:It does raise the interesting question what would happen if a person who had their passports revoked attempted to leave the country illegally. Would the state have to stop them, using lethal force if necessary? Because, uh, I'm pretty sure there are other judgments that concern a German state preventing its citizens from leaving without proper documentation, and they were all very clear... Leaving the country without a passport is a misdemeanor (§ 24 I PaßG), as is the attempt (§ 24 II PaßG). The Federal Police has a catalog of authorizations regarding gun use (§ 10- UZwG) which does not include the authorization to use guns to stop the commission of a misdemeanor (unless certain additional facts are given, e.g. use of military hardware or explosives). As an historical aside, the authorizations for gun use in the GDR and the FRG weren't that different. The difference was that under GDR criminal law Republikflucht was a felony. Both the GDR and the FRG allowed the use of gun to halt the commission of felonies.  (The Mauerschützen judgements, by the way, are kinda weird in their reasoning and get criticized even by academics not on the left's payroll. Ach, die Freuden der juristischen Aufarbeitung eines untergegangenen Staates. )
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Dec 9, 2014 01:29
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Randler posted:Leaving the country without a passport is a misdemeanor (§ 24 I PaßG), as is the attempt (§ 24 II PaßG). The Federal Police has a catalog of authorizations regarding gun use (§ 10- UZwG) which does not include the authorization to use guns to stop the commission of a misdemeanor (unless certain additional facts are given, e.g. use of military hardware or explosives). IIRC, the German border was also "Militärisches Sperrgebiet". While unlawfully entering this in the BRD is also just a misdemeanor, in the GDR this iirc was also a felony. Even today, a soldier on patrol is, in theory, supposed to shoot at tresparsers (if they dont stop when called to stop, and at the very end of the escalation ladder after warning shots etc.). Bottom line, if you are collecting mushroom in a Military area, and some dude in uniform sees you, you do what he says. A friend did that once and got away with some paperwork, 35 Euros, and a stern talking about "dude, this area is chock full of heavy metals, why the gently caress do you collect mushrooms here? There are so many mushroom here because the wildlife is smart enough to not eat them for fucks sake...". Note that this would have ended much less harmless in the GDR. One should also note that unlawfully entering Soviet "Militärisches Sperrgebiet" (there were a couple of these in the GDR) would have iirc meant being under Soviet jurisdiction if you get caught.
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Dec 10, 2014 21:19
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Mightypeon posted:IIRC, the German border was also "Militärisches Sperrgebiet". While unlawfully entering this in the BRD is also just a misdemeanor, in the GDR this iirc was also a felony. Even today, a soldier on patrol is, in theory, supposed to shoot at tresparsers (if they dont stop when called to stop, and at the very end of the escalation ladder after warning shots etc.). One warning shot. But we were supposed to aim for the legs in case someone somehow went the entire escalation ladder without getting smart at the last minute, so it balances out again.
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Dec 10, 2014 21:23
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posh spaz posted:My point was more generally about "The War on Islam," culturally and militarily. Is it the right thing to do? I think so. Tolerance doesn't mean being a doormat. I believe you should stand up to what you believe in. We just have to admit that standing up for what we believe in inspires others to hurt us. posh spaz posted:It's pretty generous to assume they're smart enough to learn German. You are quite the fountain of interesting opinions, friend.
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Dec 10, 2014 21:24
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Libluini posted:One warning shot. They didn't specify that you can't use the GraPi for it. 
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Dec 10, 2014 21:26
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Duzzy Funlop posted:You are quite the fountain of interesting opinions, friend. I get you're like, ESL or whatever, so maybe tongue-in-cheek humor might be hard to understand. In case you missed it, I explained the joke: posh spaz posted:That was sarcasm, in case it wasn't obvious, since later on, I talked about how Ben Franklin thought Germans were too stupid to learn English. At least German racists assume filthy immigrants can learn German. Libluini posted:One warning shot. But we were supposed to aim for the legs in case someone somehow went the entire escalation ladder without getting smart at the last minute, so it balances out again. You give them one warning shot? That's a lot more generous than what happens when you get caught being black in America. (Again, joke).
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Dec 10, 2014 21:30
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posh spaz posted:I get you're like, ESL or whatever I'm, uh, what? posh spaz posted:In case you missed it, I explained the joke: My bad, I actually missed that. Let's stick with just this quote then: posh spaz posted:My point was more generally about "The War on Islam," culturally and militarily. Is it the right thing to do? I think so. Tolerance doesn't mean being a doormat. I believe you should stand up to what you believe in. We just have to admit that standing up for what we believe in inspires others to hurt us.
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Dec 10, 2014 21:35
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