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Which part exactly do you object to? Do you think radical Islam exist in a vacuum, and we are 100% blameless victims of terrorism? Or should the west not object to human rights violations around the world?Duzzy Funlop posted:I'm, uh, what? Englisch als Zweitsprache posh spaz fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Dec 10, 2014 |
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Dec 10, 2014 21:43
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Libluini posted:One warning shot. But we were supposed to aim for the legs in case someone somehow went the entire escalation ladder without getting smart at the last minute, so it balances out again. Got trained the same way in 2003/2004, but the instructors said that aiming for the legs pretty much doesnt work because, unless its really close, you need to be a pretty decent shot for that. From what I have read about the actual Mauerschützenprozesse, a number of Grenzsoldaten made a number of shortcuts on the escalation ladder (which in theory also existed for them). It also seems that Grenzsoldaten that followed GDR law (as in, fully following the escalation ladder, and attempting to provide first aid to downed targets) did get treated more leniently compared to those that did not.
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Dec 10, 2014 21:43
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Mightypeon posted:Got trained the same way in 2003/2004, but the instructors said that aiming for the legs pretty much doesnt work because, unless its really close, you need to be a pretty decent shot for that. Yeah, we were told we should do our best and always state at the inquiry afterwards that we really did aim for the legs, even if we missed correcting for the recoil and accidentally nailed him through the heart. (I faintly remember shooting instructors telling me about this and I myself did gently caress up some shooting exercises when I forgot recoil exists and suddenly shot far above the targets. So it's plausible. I guess our instructors didn't want to tell us "aim for the ground just before them" just in case too many of us were good shots.?  )Then again, I faintly remember someone telling me to aim at the feet, so a shot would have a better chance at hitting the leg. This could have been a joke, though! My time in the military was eight years ago and basic training almost ten years, so I may be misremembering this last part.
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Dec 10, 2014 22:00
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Brustbein und Jochbein. 
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Dec 10, 2014 22:04
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Randler posted:Brustbein und Jochbein. Haha, yeah, propably.
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Dec 10, 2014 22:07
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Libluini posted:Then again, I faintly remember someone telling me to aim at the feet, so a shot would have a better chance at hitting the leg. Looks like somebody needs some help to remember proper procedure. (They also told us to not go for the legs at close range when standing on concrete due to ricoshets.)
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Dec 10, 2014 22:11
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posh spaz posted:Which part exactly do you object to? Do you think radical Islam exist in a vacuum, and we are 100% blameless victims of terrorism? Or should the west not object to human rights violations around the world? This is probably not what you mean though.
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Dec 10, 2014 22:51
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Cingulate posted:It seems like you're proposing a strange dichotomy where we can either not object to human rights violations, or wage a "War on Islam". posh spaz posted:My point was more generally about "The War on Islam," culturally and militarily. Is it the right thing to do? I think so. Tolerance doesn't mean being a doormat. I believe you should stand up to what you believe in. We just have to admit that standing up for what we believe in inspires others to hurt us. Seems pretty clear to me. Germany has a proud tradition of declaring war on foreign cultures, races, and beliefs, why stop now
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Dec 10, 2014 22:57
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"War on Islam" is a horribly dumb and idiotic concept that needs to die an urgent death. Islam is hugely heterogenous, and for the record, Id recon that out of 100 people that fight against the so called Islamic State today, about 90 to 95 will be Muslims. The same percentage would very likely apply to the victims of the so called Islamic State too.
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Dec 10, 2014 23:13
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Cingulate posted:It seems like you're proposing a strange dichotomy where we can either not object to human rights violations, or wage a "War on Islam". posh spaz posted:I think people who believe in radical Islam sincerely believe "The War on Islam" is real. I do not personally support them or that worldview, but it is true some people perceive it to be real. One stream of thought upholds "good" Western values: democracy, egality, the rule of law, protection of minorities, universal suffrage, women/gay rights. The other upholds "bad" Western values: racism, xenophobia, etc. When the CSU says they want to stop immigrants from speaking their own language in their home, that makes some people hate "the West," making us less safe. When a country lets women drive cars and gays get married, that also makes some people hate "the West," also making us less safe. I don't think it's desirable to appease radical Muslims, and I don't even know if it's possible. My point is that "they" hate us for things we do, things we believe, and beliefs we export around the world.
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Dec 10, 2014 23:17
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germany discussion: they hate us for our freedoms
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Dec 10, 2014 23:24
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I honestly think a lot of their grievances re:things we do, are legitimate. One could make a very long list of American/British interventions in the Middle East, and we've had support from most other Western countries along the way. For instance, Germany was (is?) one of our extraordinary rendition buddies. Torture and abduction are pretty bad, IMO. I don't think hating us for things we believe is legitimate, and I'm not sure if we should be exporting our values.
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Dec 10, 2014 23:36
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you literally said that the War on Islam was a good idea and the right thing to do?
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Dec 10, 2014 23:42
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icantfindaname posted:you literally said that the War on Islam was a good idea and the right thing to do? God, no. I said standing up for "good" Western values is the right thing to do, but it makes people hate us. Some of the people who hate us want to harm us. Therefore, standing up for what what we believe in makes us less safe. Radical Muslims perceive our "standing up for 'good' Western values" as the "War on Islam®." That's why ISIS gets all those stupid people to come help them kill other Muslims. They say "Hey, the West is waging a War on Islam®! Come help us decapitate journalists!" Also doing poo poo like overthrowing democratically-elected governments, and blowing up wedding parties via drones makes people hate us as well. I think that hate is completely justified and we should stop doing those things.
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Dec 10, 2014 23:56
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posh spaz posted:God, no. posh spaz posted:My point was more generally about "The War on Islam," culturally and militarily. Is it the right thing to do? I think so. Alright then.
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Dec 11, 2014 00:04
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posh spaz posted:I said standing up for "good" Western values is the right thing to do, but it makes people hate us. Some of the people who hate us want to harm us. Therefore, standing up for what what we believe in makes us less safe. Wtf? I'm pretty sure people in Iraq don't give a poo poo about women being allowed to drive cars in California. What they care about is the massive, never ending stream of death, suffering and destruction that the west has been importing into the region for over 60 years. And only about that. Are you seriously pulling a "They hate are freedoms" in the year of our lord 2014?
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Dec 11, 2014 00:10
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Well, there is a significant school of thought that pushes radical Islam, but the mass popular support is mostly a result of never ending war. Radical Islam didn't become A Thing until recently for a reason. As late as the 1980s the Iraqis, Syrians, and Egyptians were known as dirty godless commies, not religious zealots.
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Dec 11, 2014 00:14
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icantfindaname posted:germany discussion: they hate us for our freedoms The transformation is complete  icantfindaname posted:Well, there is a significant school of thought that pushes radical Islam, but the mass popular support is mostly a result of never ending war. Radical Islam didn't become A Thing until recently for a reason The stagnation of scientific advancement in the 12th century arabic world would like to have a word with you 
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Dec 11, 2014 00:15
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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icantfindaname posted:Well, there is a significant school of thought that pushes radical Islam, but the mass popular support is mostly a result of never ending war. Radical Islam didn't become A Thing until recently for a reason. As late as the 1980s the Iraqis, Syrians, and Egyptians were known as dirty godless commies, not religious zealots. Quite right, while religious hardliners have obviously always existed, radical Islam as a political force is pretty much a product of the Seventies and as a response to the western and Soviet influence in the region, to unite people of different cultures and ethnicities under a common cause that could stand up to the two power blocks. It is really interesting how much the public conscious shifted after 911 and remade thousand of years of history into a continues struggle of Christianity vs. Islam when even a month earlier the majority of people probably couldn't tell anything about the Middle east at all asides from oil. Same with Islam as this religion of evil bullcrap. e X fucked around with this message at 00:32 on Dec 11, 2014 |
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Dec 11, 2014 00:19
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waitwhatno posted:Wtf? I'm pretty sure people in Iraq don't give a poo poo about women being allowed to drive cars in California. What they care about is the massive, never ending stream of death, suffering and destruction that the west has been importing into the region for over 60 years. And only about that. Except most terrorists who attack Western targets are not Iraqi. Almost all the 9/11 guys were Saudis. I think Iraqis completely have a reason to hate the West, but they don't turn to terrorism en masse. I think those Saudis who are part of Al-Qaeda and other terrorist groups absolutely hate the West because of Western values. Bin Laden was goddamn royalty, do you think he hated America because we blew up his family's yak? Duzzy Funlop posted:Alright then. Just FYI, in the English language, sometimes people use quotation marks to denote something they don't personally believe, but are discussing how others talk about it. That's why I used "the War on Islam" in quotes as a shorthand for "supposed" or "so-called." http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/quote_unquote e X posted:It is really interesting how much the public conscious shifted after 911 and remade thousand of years of history into a continues struggle of Christianity vs. Islam when even a month earlier the majority of people probably couldn't tell anything about the Middle east at all asides from oil. One of the most troubling effects of that narrative has been to recast the whole Judaism vs Islam thing as well. Jews fled the Catholic Inquisition to the Ottoman Empire, and lived more or less peacefully there until Zionism started taking off in the late 1800's. Both the Christianity v Islam and Judaism v Islam conflicts sound too much like "Oceania was at war with Eurasia; therefore Oceania had always been at war with Eurasia" posh spaz fucked around with this message at 00:33 on Dec 11, 2014 |
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Dec 11, 2014 00:21
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posh spaz posted:Just FYI, in the English language, sometimes people use quotation marks to denote something they don't personally believe, but are discussing how others talk about it. That's why I used "the War on Islam" in quotes as a shorthand for "supposed" or "so-called." Thank you for educating me on the use of quotes in the english language. Now, if you could address the little issue of you saying that, culturally and militarily, that thing you put in quotation marks (you know, that thing you don't personally believe, but that others are talking about in a totally different way) is the right thing thing to do in your personal opinion.
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Dec 11, 2014 00:36
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Duzzy Funlop posted:Thank you for educating me on the use of quotes in the english language. The thing that we are doing (supporting democracy/womens' and gays' rights/protecting minorities/etc.), that radical Muslims perceive as "the War on Islam," which they perceive to consist of BOTH cultural imperialism + military intervention, is the right thing to do. I personally think military intervention has been justified at times, although has mostly been unjustified. However, I don't believe it is part and parcel of the cultural imperialism radical Muslims take umbrage with. So to (hopefully) clarify, military intervention =/= cultural imperialism, even though radical Muslims (apparently) conflate both into "the War on Islam."
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Dec 11, 2014 00:42
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the bad things Muslims are presently doing in the Middle East are not motivated by Are Freedoms. actually, they're motivated by decades of war and economic stagnation, not entirely but mostly the fault of Western European countries and the United States, and the lack of any apparent way out of this situation besides fascism. you should be familiar with this line of thinking, your own country was one of the pioneers back in the day, only Germany's problems weren't imposed on it by foreign powers
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Dec 11, 2014 00:46
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icantfindaname posted:
This is a pretty good joke.
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Dec 11, 2014 00:50
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Wait, the brutal reparations after WW1 weren't imposed by foreign powers? Gimme the Rheinland or gtfo! Fun fact: the occupation of the Ruhrgebiet was one of the primary reasons Henkel began manufacturing adhesives.
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Dec 11, 2014 00:52
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posh spaz posted:I think those Saudis who are part of Al-Qaeda and other terrorist groups absolutely hate the West because of Western values. He also probably really didn't like western values, but he probably also doesn't like South American values and he didn't attack Chile. (He was also complaining about attacks against Iraqis before not only Enduring Freedom, but even before 9/11.) posh spaz posted:Wait, the brutal reparations after WW1 weren't imposed by foreign powers? Germany actually had tons of reparations to pay after WWII, and lost even more territory, and yet it's still been rather peaceful since then. I understand how the Treaty of Versailles was a powerful motive for WWII, but it wasn't a good reason.
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Dec 11, 2014 02:26
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The only problem with Germany post WWI was that they lost. If they had won, they would've been heroes. There was a huge difference between hyper inflation and deflation of the Weimar Republic and the Marshall Plan. In War: Resolution. In Defeat: Defiance. In Victory: Magnanimity. In Peace: Good Will.
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Dec 11, 2014 03:05
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posh spaz posted:The only problem with Germany post WWI was that they lost. If they had won, they would've been heroes. There was a huge difference between hyper inflation and deflation of the Weimar Republic and the Marshall Plan. In War: Resolution. In Defeat: Defiance. In Victory: Magnanimity. In Peace: Good Will. I've read this post three times through and I'm really unsure what you're trying to say here.
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Dec 11, 2014 09:47
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"Maybe he forgot the quotation marks."
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Dec 11, 2014 09:56
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Default Settings posted:"Maybe" he "forgot" the "quotation" marks "." FTFY
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Dec 11, 2014 09:58
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He is clearly saying that if German troops had marched into Paris in 1914 they would have been praised as liberators and that the world would have been better off with an autocratic super-Germany and Kaiser Wilhelm running it. Guys, this happens all the time with people visiting Germany and seeing how awesome we are and how well our trains are run. Give him a break, it will pass.
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Dec 11, 2014 10:46
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waitwhatno posted:He is clearly saying that if German troops had marched into Paris in 1914 they would have been praised as liberators and that the world would have been better off with an autocratic super-Germany and Kaiser Wilhelm running it. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he meant to say that if Germany had won WW1, the Nazis would never have risen in Germany. Which is a silly discussion to even have considering the many variables involved.
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Dec 11, 2014 11:16
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Germany Discussion (closed sundays): You should know this, it was YOUR country that...
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Dec 11, 2014 11:40
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Please change the thread title from Discussion to Stammtisch
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Dec 11, 2014 12:01
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Sereri posted:Please change the thread title from Discussion to Stammtisch Too little beer involved imo (or is it?)
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Dec 11, 2014 12:07
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Sereri posted:Please change the thread title from Discussion to Stammtisch Stammtisch in unserer Jaghütte (bitte nur "echte" Jäger!)
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Dec 11, 2014 12:11
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System Metternich posted:Too little beer involved imo (or is it?) Ist ja auch Glühweinsaison.
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Dec 11, 2014 12:19
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waitwhatno posted:Guys, this happens all the time with people visiting Germany and seeing how awesome we are and how well our trains are run. Give him a break, it will pass. The secret of our trains: The Deutsche Bahn defines a "Verspätung" as a train coming late by more than five minutes. Turns out if you use special German train time your trains will always be on time! (No, really.)  Edit: In welcher Jahreszeit hat die Deutsche Bahn die meisten Verspätungen? -Frühling, Sommer, Herbst und Winter. (In which season does the Deutsche Bahn has the most late arrivals? -Spring, Summer, Autumn and Winter.)
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Dec 11, 2014 12:21
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e X posted:Ist ja auch Glühweinsaison. Glühwein at the Stammtisch? C'mon, you're better than that. Christkindlmarkt or bust! fake edit: Stammtisch means beer in most regions of Germany and Austria. Wine is very popular in eastern Austria as well, possibly in other wine regions too. And I have the mental image of some Frisian sailors just drinking Korn and/or Grog all day while not saying a single word, but that may be a cliché, who knows.
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Dec 11, 2014 12:28
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Sereri posted:Please change the thread title from Discussion to Stammtisch Since we had an actual and unironic argument of ~are freedoms~ over the last couple of pages, I'd be all for this, but I'd also need an appropriate german translation for that expression with the very same amout of irony attached to it.
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Dec 11, 2014 12:36
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