|
Cavaradossi posted:Raises the question. God created Man to share in His own life. Like any parent, his children might choose the wrong thing. Oh that's just stupid and is attributing (sensible, in my opinion) human morality to God. If you compare God to a parent, then by any definition of "good parent" he is not one. A bad parent doesn't allow preventable "accidents," (or plans, if you're to be believed) to harm his children.
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 00:18
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 1, 2024 02:15 |
|
|
Sharkie posted:Oh that's just stupid and is attributing (sensible, in my opinion) human morality to God. If you compare God to a parent, then by any definition of "good parent" he is not one. A bad parent doesn't allow preventable "accidents," (or plans, if you're to be believed) to harm his children.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 00:19
|
|
|
Sharkie posted:Oh that's just stupid and is attributing (sensible, in my opinion) human morality to God. If you compare God to a parent, then by any definition of "good parent" he is not one. A bad parent doesn't allow preventable "accidents," (or plans, if you're to be believed) to harm his children. God doesn't plan to harm us. God gives us the simple choice to know and love him, or to reject him. That's what free will is. It's not a preventable accident if someone chooses to reject God, that is the exercise of their free will. You can't remove that choice without removing free will. A good parent lets go and allows their children to choose.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 00:22
|
|
|
Cavaradossi posted:We don't blame roadlayers for car accidents. They create the situation where car accidents can happen. But the drivers are (sometimes - assuming for example that they don't succumb to brain tumours) morally culpable. If a roadlayer intentionally and needlessly put in unsafe bumps and potholes where they could not be seen or avoided you bet your rear end I'd blame him for every accident those caused. Who What Now fucked around with this message at 00:30 on Dec 12, 2014 |
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 00:24
|
|
|
There's this definition of God as fully omnipotent and omniscient, impossible to comprehend, knows every movement of every electron for every picosecond for all eternity, which included the knowledge of all man's sin and the necessity of Jesus. And then we hear analogies like, "well a parent can't stop their kid from making a bad decision!" or "someone makes a road where accidents could happen, but it's not their fault!" which completely ignore the whole OMNISCIENT CREATOR OF ALL EXISTENCE aspect of God. Yes, a regular-rear end parent might not be perfect; that doesn't excuse God, he IS perfect.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 00:24
|
|
|
Cavaradossi posted:A good parent lets go and allows their children to choose. "Hmm, junior seems to be waddling towards the open outlet with a fork he's picked up off the ground, which I not only left there, but purposefully left there knowing he'd pick it up if given the choice. Also, I know beyond the shadow of a doubt that he's got about thirty seconds before he jams it into that light socket and drat near kills himself. Better keep sitting on the couch and doing nothing, perfectly good parent that I am!"
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 00:25
|
|
|
"Now, don't eat this delicious candy bar. It's full of cyanide." "What's cyanide?" "Just don't eat it while I'm gone." (parent leaves the house, then sneaks around to a window to watch). "Oh, hi Ms. Snake, are you our babysitter"? "You should totally eat that candybar. It's awesome and will make you like your parent." Kid eat candybar, starts to foam from the mouth. The divine parent rushes in, and begins shouting at the kid and kicks them out of the house. Parent decides that every child he has from that point on will be poisoned at birth, and only by obedience will they be given the antidote. Also the parent decides there needs to be a complex fake suicide plot for some reason. Cavaradossi posted:God doesn't plan to harm us. God gives us the simple choice to know and love him, or to reject him. That's what free will is. It's not a preventable accident if someone chooses to reject God, that is the exercise of their free will. You can't remove that choice without removing free will. A good parent lets go and allows their children to choose. You're not even trying, yo. Brain tumors. Birth defects. Schizophrenia. Cancer. Droughts. These are removals of choice and/or preventable accidents. These are either God's plan to harm us or outside of God's control. Sharkie fucked around with this message at 00:29 on Dec 12, 2014 |
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 00:26
|
|
|
Cavaradossi posted:Raises the question. God created Man to share in His own life. Like any parent, his children might choose the wrong thing. A parent having a child does so in the hope that they will have a happy and good life, while you can certainly argue that this is a pretty vain hope, God doesn't even have the option of hope. He KNOWS that the people he creates are going to live lives of suffering and damnation, and spend eternity suffering unimaginable horrors because he made them so that they would. A parent which has a child in the certain and absolute knowledge that their life will be nothing but agony is an immoral parent.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 00:26
|
|
|
GAINING WEIGHT... posted:There's this definition of God as fully omnipotent and omniscient, impossible to comprehend, knows every movement of every electron for every picosecond for all eternity, which included the knowledge of all man's sin and the necessity of Jesus. Yes, God created Man knowing that he might sin. But Man then chose to sin.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 00:27
|
|
|
Cavaradossi posted:God created Man with free will. Men choose their actions. God knows (in eternity) those choices. Some of the choices are bad ones. You cannot claim that free will exists but that God knows all of our actions before hand. Those are mutually exclusive scenarios.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 00:28
|
|
|
Cavaradossi posted:Yes, God created Man knowing that he might sin. But Man then chose to sin. Wouldn't it be more accurate to say "God created Man knowing that he would sin"? Periodiko fucked around with this message at 00:31 on Dec 12, 2014 |
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 00:28
|
|
|
Cavaradossi posted:Yes, God created Man knowing that he might sin. But Man then chose to sin. Because if God is omniscient, he doesn't know man "might" sin, he knows exactly each and every sin that takes place (explicitly including ADTRW). He knew them all from the beginning of time as we understand it. Do you think there is a difference between knowing something might happen, and knowing something definitely will happen? Who What Now posted:You cannot claim that free will exists but that God knows all of our actions before hand. Those are mutually exclusive scenarios.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 00:29
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:A parent which has a child in the certain and absolute knowledge that their life will be nothing but agony is an immoral parent. Yep. But a parent who has a child and then allows that child not to choose their actions is also an immoral parent. Only a parent who allows their child to choose, even though some of those choices might be wrong, is moral. Such is God.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 00:30
|
|
|
Nessus posted:So God is not omniscient? God is omniscient - he knows the outcome of all Man's choices.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 00:31
|
|
|
Cavaradossi posted:Yes, God created Man knowing that he might sin. But Man then chose to sin. He didn't, as usually defined, possibly know that man would sin; he absolutely, without question, knew the causal chain that would result in man sinning because he built that chain of events himself and as a omnipotent, omniscient deity knew that it could never be otherwise. Seriously, free will is incompatible with a Christian God who is also the tri-omni creator of everthing.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 00:32
|
|
|
Cavaradossi posted:Yep. But a parent who has a child and then allows that child not to choose their actions is also an immoral parent. Only a parent who allows their child to choose, even though some of those choices might be wrong, is moral. Such is God. Cavaradossi posted:God is omniscient - he knows the outcome of all Man's choices.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 00:32
|
|
|
Man I just believe Jesus is the poo poo and ain't a bad guy and likely saved all of our dumb asses.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 00:33
|
|
|
Captain_Maclaine posted:He didn't, as usually defined, possibly know that man would sin; he absolutely, without question, knew the causal chain that would result in man sinning because he built that chain of events himself and as a omnipotent, omniscient deity knew that it could never be otherwise. No. Man has free will and can choose to accept or reject God. God knows the choices we make.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 00:33
|
|
|
Cavaradossi posted:Yep. But a parent who has a child and then allows that child not to choose their actions is also an immoral parent. Only a parent who allows their child to choose, even though some of those choices might be wrong, is moral. Such is God. No, a parent who doesn't allow a child to make obviously harmful choices is actually the moral one. Please tell me you don't have children.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 00:33
|
|
|
Cavaradossi posted:God is omniscient - he knows the outcome of all Man's choices. Right but does he also know what Man is going to choose, before he makes that choice? Because omniscience implies he would.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 00:33
|
|
|
Cavaradossi posted:God is omniscient - he knows the outcome of all Man's choices. So man doesn't have free will. Got it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 00:33
|
|
|
Cavaradossi posted:No. Man has free will and can choose to accept or reject God. God knows the choices we make. That makes no drat sense.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 00:33
|
|
|
Nessus posted:Would it be wrong of a parent to leave their child in risk of agony and permanent mutilation if they had the knowledge of that future agony, and the means to prevent it? Means like...becoming incarnate and redeeming all our sins? Yes, it would be bad if that hadn't happened.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 00:34
|
|
|
"Hey dad, I'm drunk as hell and I'm gonna go for a drive." "Hmm, this is bad, and will lead to his suffering and death, but truly, interfering with his free will would be impossible for a Good Parent like me. Now, time to make sure one of my kids gets a mental impairment." Cavaradossi posted:Means like...becoming incarnate and redeeming all our sins? Yes, it would be bad if that hadn't happened. He knows it won't be good enough for everyone. Why is incarnation necessary? Why does he not just let everyone into heaven anyways? And anyways it doesn't prevent any of the bad things that cause suffering I mentioned earlier. You're not nearly as entertaining as Kyrie. Sharkie fucked around with this message at 00:37 on Dec 12, 2014 |
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 00:34
|
|
|
Cavaradossi posted:Yep. But a parent who has a child and then allows that child not to choose their actions is also an immoral parent. Only a parent who allows their child to choose, even though some of those choices might be wrong, is moral. Such is God. Yes, that is also arguable, but if your choices are between allowing your child to be born, knowing their choices will drat them, and allowing your child to be born, and controlling their life absolutely, those are both bad choices. The moral choice is not to have children. If you cannot give your child a good life, do not have one, that is fairly standard reasoning. The further issue with this is that if God is all powerful, why can't he create a world where we can exist but not suffer? If he can and chooses not to, he is not good, if he would but cannot, he isn't God.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 00:34
|
|
|
Periodiko posted:Right but does he also know what Man is going to choose, before he makes that choice? Because omniscience implies he would. Yes, but He didn't make the choice.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 00:35
|
|
|
Captain_Maclaine posted:That makes no drat sense. What makes less sense is infinite punishment for foreseen circumstances. There seems to be no possible crime for which infinite torment would be just.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 00:35
|
|
|
Cavaradossi posted:Yes, but He didn't make the choice. But He made the person making the choice, right?
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 00:35
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:If you cannot give your child a good life, do not have one, that is fairly standard reasoning. We all have it within us to be good.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 00:35
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:The further issue with this is that if God is all powerful, why can't he create a world where we can exist but not suffer? He did! We rejected it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 00:37
|
|
|
Cavaradossi posted:We all have it within us to be good. You said that God knows some of us won't be good, if God knows that, how can we be good? We would be defying God's knowledge. Cavaradossi posted:He did! We rejected it. Then he didn't create a world in which we wouldn't suffer... Humans are a part of the world, if he has perfect knowledge, he knew humans would reject Eden, so he knew that his design of either Eden or humanity was not going to make us happy. So why did he make it that way? The general problem with all of this is that if God knows how things are going to happen, then everything that happens is part of God's expected outcome for the world. He would have known this when he created the world, which means he created the world so that it would suffer. God cannot be fallible and omnipotent at the same time. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 00:40 on Dec 12, 2014 |
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 00:37
|
|
|
"Whelp, having somehow survived electrocuting himself, junior is now crawling across the living room right towards a loaded bear trap I left out specifically for him to eventually stumble into. 'Course, he probably wouldn't have recognized it under the best of circumstances, being all of two years old, but certainly can't know since his eyes were fried by that light-socket thing I just watched happen as I knew it would. Better do absolutely nothing, again. Man, I should so write this up and send it in to Modern Parenting, I am like the best parent ever!"Nessus posted:We don't have access to God's knowledge, so from our perspective we choose freely. I think that makes sense. I agree we might delude ourselves that we have some say in the matter, but it's a false perspective in a world with an omniscient creator God who, before even the first atom came into existence, knew exactly the chain of events every single action ever would lead to, including man's apparent choices, which were never, ever going to play out other than how he intended from the start. I'd say we're nothing more than bots in such a hypothetical, but even as cruel as man can be, he's not yet devised a machine that can experience suffering. Captain_Maclaine fucked around with this message at 00:41 on Dec 12, 2014 |
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 00:37
|
|
|
Cavaradossi posted:Yes, God created Man knowing that he might sin. But Man then chose to sin. That doesn't address my point Cavaradossi posted:Yep. But a parent who has a child and then allows that child not to choose their actions is also an immoral parent. Only a parent who allows their child to choose, even though some of those choices might be wrong, is moral. Such is God. STOP using the parent analogy, it does not hold up to scrutiny! First of all, how many parents DO impose some lack of choice on their child? A curfew? A grounding? No you can't date this 35 year old man? And second, a parent is not omniscient and omnipotent like God is! If a parent could foresee and prevent a choice made freely by the child that resulted in a mangled, bloody death, wouldn't the parent exercise its superpower to prevent that from happening? Or would you really argue that the most moral and loving thing is to let the tragedy happen? That's what I mean. I'm not trying to even argue the whole "free will and omniscience are incompatible" thing (which I DO think, for the record, but that's not my point here) - I'm saying there is a disconnect between arguing the God possesses these omni-qualities and then using the analogy of a parent or a road builder or something to explain the realities of the world.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 00:39
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:So why did he make it that way? This is what free will is: the ability to choose to reject God.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 00:42
|
|
|
Cavaradossi posted:He did! We rejected it. But you established that God would know that they would reject it, because He's omniscient. So it's reasonable to say that God created humans knowing that they would fall. Moreover, because he is omnipotent, you can say that God created humans to fall, because this is all part of God's all-knowing plan, no? Because if God hadn't wanted it so, then he simply wouldn't have done it. Is there any part of this that is inconsistent with Christian dogma? To put it another way, because God knows of all sin, and because God created all beings that will sin knowing exactly how they would sin, it would stand to reason that all sin is a part of God's plan, right? Am I making any errors or assumptions inconsistent with Christianity? Periodiko fucked around with this message at 00:45 on Dec 12, 2014 |
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 00:42
|
|
|
Cavaradossi posted:Means like...becoming incarnate and redeeming all our sins? Yes, it would be bad if that hadn't happened. No, as in physically appearing and stopping the harm before it happens. God does not do this and he is immoral for it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 00:45
|
|
|
GAINING WEIGHT... posted:First of all, how many parents DO impose some lack of choice on their child? A curfew? A grounding? No you can't date this 35 year old man? God has ground rules too. GAINING WEIGHT... posted:And second, a parent is not omniscient and omnipotent like God is! If a parent could foresee and prevent a choice made freely by the child that resulted in a mangled, bloody death, wouldn't the parent exercise its superpower to prevent that from happening? Or would you really argue that the most moral and loving thing is to let the tragedy happen? God can't stop us from choosing to reject him without removing free will. The point of the creation of Man was to create a creature with free will who could know God.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 00:45
|
|
|
Cavaradossi posted:This is what free will is: the ability to choose to reject God. Yes, that isn't disputed. But it doesn't answer the paradox of why God would choose to create a world like this. If God is all powerful and all loving, why is he powerless, or unwilling, to make it so that we don't suffer for rejecting him? Or, why did he create us in the first place? It is still immoral to create something you know is going to suffer.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 00:45
|
|
|
Cavaradossi posted:This is what free will is: the ability to choose to reject God. God already knows who will or will not reject him before they are even born. Man has no choice in the matter. Nessus posted:We don't have access to God's knowledge, so from our perspective we choose freely. I think that makes sense. The illusion of free will still isn't free will though. So it's a lie to say that we have it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 00:47
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 1, 2024 02:15 |
|
|
OwlFancier posted:make it so that we don't suffer for rejecting him? Because that's what suffering is: the rejection of God.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2014 00:47
|
|