|
Probad posted:You're right, and I suppose that's what you meant by the torture v. prosecution of torture thing. I just don't think it's enough. Evidently most people disagree.
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2014 19:16
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 28, 2024 01:52 |
|
|
Probad posted:You're right, and I suppose that's what you meant by the torture v. prosecution of torture thing. I just don't think it's enough. Like Teayches said, stopping alone does nothing to dissuade future administrations from starting the whole program up again. But it's also hard to imagine "they stopped" being an excuse in any other serious criminal context. A murderer can't go to court and argue that, although they murdered a lot of people in the recent past, they aren't currently murdering anyone and therefore should not be punished. You're implying that we should hold state officials and those in power to the same legal standards we hold to common citizens. That is a pretty radical concept.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2014 19:16
|
|
|
computer parts posted:Evidently most people disagree. Do you have a point? That's not an argument. Please don't troll this thread, it hurts my feelings.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2014 19:17
|
|
|
TEAYCHES posted:Do you have a point? That's not an argument. Please don't troll this thread, it hurts my feelings. The point is that "not voting for these guys will make them listen to us" is a dumb idea.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2014 19:24
|
|
|
computer parts posted:The point is that "not voting for these guys will make them listen to us" is a dumb idea. I agree with that 100%. Those who argued that are incorrect. My view is that we should not vote for these guys because they are war criminals and human rights abusers.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2014 19:27
|
|
|
computer parts posted:I guess the next question is - how much of the base actually finds each program morally repugnant? 45% of democrats think torture is a-okay, not nearly enough.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2014 19:27
|
|
|
I'd really like to know which of these is true because I've heard them both out of the same camp: "No one cares about torture/spying/etc. Don't vote for us if you don't want. There aren't enough of you to matter.  ""You fool! By not voting for us, you're handing the keys to the Republicans. You'll be sorry when Jeb Bush becomes president and does all the same stuff but worse!  "As posted above, there's a point at which one has to take a principled stance. I won't be party to a devil's bargain where I support an administration that chooses not to prosecute torturers in exchange for my team getting the keys to the castle for another four years.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2014 19:48
|
|
|
PhilippAchtel posted:I'd really like to know which of these is true because I've heard them both out of the same camp: I think the principled stand of "I won't vote for them" on it's own is somewhere between "I won't shake their hands" and "I won't buy their book" to be frank. I'm not going to suggest it's wrong because there are all manner of things that I won't vote for someone over that are probably less important than "should we prosecute torturers" though, I just think lesser-of-two-evils is sadly the situation we're in right now.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2014 20:06
|
|
|
Mo_Steel posted:I think the principled stand of "I won't vote for them" on it's own is somewhere between "I won't shake their hands" and "I won't buy their book" to be frank. I'm not going to suggest it's wrong because there are all manner of things that I won't vote for someone over that are probably less important than "should we prosecute torturers" though, I just think lesser-of-two-evils is sadly the situation we're in right now. Basically Democratic victories are the only thing that is going to force a fractured Republican party to jettison its mainstream or tea party elements. They already don't play nice together, but as long as they win numbers, there will be less pressure to get rid of Cruz et al.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2014 20:10
|
|
|
Probad posted:I'm asking Democrats to stop voting Democrat if they actually care as much about those things as they claim. Vote third party. Vote independent. It's not impossible. How about voting in primaries and actually supporting progressive candidates?
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2014 20:17
|
|
|
The most progressive liberal in the Democratic party is Elizabeth Warren and she's a hardliner on Iran and pro-Israel. She's said nothing on this torture report. I do not believe attempting to reform the Democratic Party from the inside is going to work, but go for it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2014 20:21
|
|
TEAYCHES posted:The most progressive liberal in the Democratic party is Elizabeth Warren and she's a hardliner on Iran and pro-Israel. She's said nothing on this torture report. I do not believe attempting to reform the Democratic Party from the inside is going to work, but go for it. Sanders-Warren 2016 will be announced after Hillary Clinton and Jeb Bush throw their respective hats in the game. "End the Oligarchy", will be their slogan. They probably won't will 
|
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2014 20:29
|
|
|
Call Me Charlie posted:How about voting in primaries and actually supporting progressive candidates? Exactly. Tea Party the Democrats with your leftism.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2014 20:48
|
|
|
Call Me Charlie posted:How about voting in primaries and actually supporting progressive candidates? Also a fine choice. I did a small amount of work for Obama and voted for him when he was claiming to be the progressive guy the first time around. It didn't turn out well in my opinion, but there was plenty of reason to believe in him at the time.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2014 20:50
|
|
|
Also, educate people. Argue with your racist grandpas and your Tea Party-voting coworkers and your fence-sitting neighbors. Don't clam up when they parrot Fox News talking points for the sake of keeping the peace. Touch the poop. Yes, it's going to be a long, thankless ordeal. No, a lot of them won't actually listen. It's still worthwhile and necessary because as long as the general voting base has only the vaguest idea of why there's a problem, or even thinks that there IS no problem (or wouldn't be if those drat LIBRULS would stop AGITATING and RACE-BAITING), "Lesser of Two Evils" is the best we'll ever be able to do.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2014 20:57
|
|
|
TEAYCHES posted:The most progressive liberal in the Democratic party is Elizabeth Warren and she's a hardliner on Iran and pro-Israel. She's said nothing on this torture report. She said it was "deeply troubling" on Twitter, for what that's worth. Not sure if I would really call Warren the most progressive liberal in the Democratic party. Maybe most popular semi-progressive?
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2014 21:34
|
|
|
TEAYCHES posted:I agree with that 100%. Those who argued that are incorrect. My view is that we should not vote for these guys because they are war criminals and human rights abusers. You should probably stop paying taxes then, this country was proudly built by war criminals and human rights abusers.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2014 21:53
|
|
|
Jesus Christquote:Host Chuck Todd asked Cheney to respond to the Senate Intelligence Committee report's account that one detainee was "chained to the wall of a cell, doused with water, froze to death in CIA custody."
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2014 21:54
|
|
|
Nothing surprising about that opinion. Cheney has always been a "Collateral damage is to be expected." kind of a guy. Really he's just giving voice to the standards everyone was and still is operating under.
Rent-A-Cop fucked around with this message at 22:01 on Dec 14, 2014 |
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2014 21:58
|
|
|
Democrats are terrible because they are not actually leftists hope this helps
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2014 22:18
|
|
|
Trabisnikof posted:You should probably stop paying taxes then, this country was proudly built by war criminals and human rights abusers. Yeah, but when you go back far enough, this describes most countries on Earth today, so with "go somewhere else" not an option for escaping vicarious guilt it'd really be nice to know how to un-gently caress this country, right now, instead of succumbing to existential despair or accepting some minimum level of systemic atrocity as just the cost of doing business.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2014 22:19
|
|
|
Probad posted:I'm asking Democrats to stop voting Democrat if they actually care as much about those things as they claim. Vote third party. Vote independent. It's not impossible. Actually have Republicans do this so they can lose, thanks for your bad advice.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2014 22:25
|
|
|
Kitfox88 posted:Democrats are terrible because they are not actually leftists hope this helps Indeed, it would be impossible for a party of actual leftists to ever win majority support in a first-past-the-post America. Thesaurasaurus posted:Yeah, but when you go back far enough, this describes most countries on Earth today, so with "go somewhere else" not an option for escaping vicarious guilt it'd really be nice to know how to un-gently caress this country, right now, instead of succumbing to existential despair or accepting some minimum level of systemic atrocity as just the cost of doing business. I'm just pointing out that if one thinks they can wash their hands of American war crimes and human rights abuses just by voting green/libertarian, there's a lot more they have to do to untangle themselves from America. Like start by not paying your taxes. In fact, there are a few good essays about this very concept.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2014 22:26
|
|
|
Nonsense posted:Actually have Republicans do this so they can lose, thanks for your bad advice. Trabisnikof posted:I'm just pointing out that if one thinks they can wash their hands of American war crimes and human rights abuses just by voting green/libertarian, there's a lot more they have to do to untangle themselves from America. Like start by not paying your taxes. In fact, there are a few good essays about this very concept. Rent-A-Cop fucked around with this message at 22:30 on Dec 14, 2014 |
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2014 22:26
|
|
|
Rent-A-Cop posted:The only thing worse than never ending war crimes is the other team winning! Yes actually.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2014 22:27
|
|
|
Thesaurasaurus posted:Yeah, but when you go back far enough, this describes most countries on Earth today, so with "go somewhere else" not an option for escaping vicarious guilt it'd really be nice to know how to un-gently caress this country, right now, instead of succumbing to existential despair or accepting some minimum level of systemic atrocity as just the cost of doing business. I've been reading up on hydroponics. Newly available grow-lamps push closed-environment hydroponic agriculture into commercial viability for greens, peppers and herbs in high-margin markets. Warehouses into farms. Enough of that, you destroy rural America. Rent-A-Cop posted:The only thing worse than never ending war crimes is the other team winning! Their infinity of war crimes is larger* than ours so yes. * There is an infinity of numbers between 0 and 1. There is a larger infinity of numbers between 0 and 2. Accretionist fucked around with this message at 22:30 on Dec 14, 2014 |
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2014 22:28
|
|
|
Edit: Sheeeit.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2014 22:29
|
|
|
Rent-A-Cop posted:The only thing worse than never ending war crimes is the other team winning! Because Republicans winning would end war crimes?  Or are you just eagerly accelerationist at this point?
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2014 22:30
|
|
|
Trabisnikof posted:Because Republicans winning would end war crimes? So whichever you like better I guess.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2014 22:33
|
|
|
Rent-A-Cop posted:Nothing surprising about that opinion. Cheney has always been a "Collateral damage is to be expected." kind of a guy. Really he's just giving voice to the standards everyone was and still is operating under. I can understand the attitude in wartime because, well, the whole point is to be such a dick that the other guy gives up, but I would prefer the intelligence community was the careful and precise scalpel they sell themselves as, not doing a Keystone Kops routine that is actively harmful to western security.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2014 22:35
|
|
|
Rent-A-Cop posted:Well right now the two party's thoughts on interrogation are "lol butt stuff" or "gently caress questions, just blow up their wedding." Even if you vote Nader till you die you'll still be complicit in all those things you hate. Just because I didn't vote for Bush doesn't mean my tax dollars didn't help pay for butt-hummus. Besides, I'm pretty sure Climate Denialism is a far-far worse crime against humanity in the long run. Yeah it sucks we tortured a few hundred foreigners. It sucks more we torture thousands of Americans every year in our prisons. But it pales in comparison to the abject human misery we're adding onto the world by delaying action on Climate Change.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2014 22:42
|
|
|
Rent-A-Cop posted:Well right now the two party's thoughts on interrogation are "lol butt stuff" or "gently caress questions, just blow up their wedding." Right, as if the previous administration wasn't droning the poo poo out of weddings. It's not much, but I'll take blowing up weddings over blowing up weddings AND butt stuff AND a "gently caress you for asking questions" for good measure.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2014 22:49
|
|
|
Trabisnikof posted:Even if you vote Nader till you die you'll still be complicit in all those things you hate. Just because I didn't vote for Bush doesn't mean my tax dollars didn't help pay for butt-hummus. I'm an expatriate, so I don't pay US taxes.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2014 22:54
|
|
|
PhilippAchtel posted:I'm an expatriate, so I don't pay US taxes. I'm sure your new country is war-crimes free since ____ 
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2014 22:57
|
|
|
PhilippAchtel posted:I'm an expatriate, so I don't pay US taxes. I don't suppose you went to any of these countries? 
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2014 22:57
|
|
|
There was a very telling moment to me in Cheney's interview with Bret Baier from last week about the torture report. He called the report something like "a load of crap," and then apologized, saying he said "hooey" on another network and but this was cable so he thought he could say "crap." I just can't understand the idea behind thinking the word "crap" is offensive while defending these brutal, dehumanizing acts of torture—which are actually, legitimately offensive. The dissonance between showing hesitation to use a word a 4th grader wouldn't get in trouble for at the same time that he's spouting enthusiasm for these gruesome acts of depravity is just... I need a drink. The reaction of conservatives (other than McCain) to this report has really bummed me out for the past week.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2014 23:05
|
|
|
Probad posted:I'm asking Democrats to stop voting Democrat if they actually care as much about those things as they claim. Vote third party. Vote independent. It's not impossible. Sadly it is in my state. The last election simply had Democrats or Republicans on the ballot in Oklahoma. I literally cannot vote for anyone else, including write-in.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2014 23:16
|
|
|
Trabisnikof posted:I'm sure your new country is war-crimes free since ____ Keep shifting those goalposts.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2014 23:29
|
|
|
Just be sure you don't step foot back if you really are avoiding paying those taxes.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2014 23:31
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 28, 2024 01:52 |
|
|
Nonsense posted:Just be sure you don't step foot back if you really are avoiding paying those taxes. US citizens living overseas still file income taxes returns, but are allowed to deduct the first $100k-ish, so I'm still fulfilling my obligations. I appreciate your concern, though.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2014 23:33
|
|