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CommieGIR posted:Oh yeah, I forgot about this: Censorship is popular with Kyrie. It actually is, though. Although it is ironic that after fuming through his probation he's putting people on ignore again. -EDIT- Kyrie I don't think you know what obtuse means.
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Dec 30, 2014 16:27
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Who What Now posted:It actually is, though. It is as God intended. And Plato.
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Dec 30, 2014 16:28
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Kyrie eleison posted:Yes, but they all deserve it. Kyrie eleison posted:It cannot be a bad thing that more souls are saved prior to the end.
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Dec 30, 2014 16:30
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CommieGIR posted:It is as God intended. And Plato. I think I actually did blame all of this poo poo on Plato about 20 pages ago. I'm not sure that Kyrie knows what lots of words mean.
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Dec 30, 2014 16:30
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Disinterested posted:I think I actually did blame all of this poo poo on Plato about 20 pages ago. Yes you did. Well, you see, Kyrie is destined for heaven, to laugh as the sinners burn in hell. A Good Christian (TM)
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Dec 30, 2014 16:32
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CommieGIR posted:Well, you see, Kyrie is destined for heaven, to laugh as the sinners burn in hell. Tertullian posted:“What a spectacle. . .when the world. . .and its many products, shall be consumed in one great flame! How vast a spectacle then bursts upon the eye! What there excites my admiration? What my derision? Which sight gives me joy? As I see. . .illustrious monarchs. . . groaning in the lowest darkness, Philosophers. . .as fire consumes them! Poets trembling before the judgment-seat of. . .Christ! Catholics only ever seem to be able to think of heaven as some sort of bizarro sadistic paradise.
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Dec 30, 2014 16:33
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Disinterested posted:Catholics only ever seem to be able to think of heaven as some sort of bizarro S&M paradise. Is it a sin to touch yourself as you watch the sinners be flayed alive?
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Dec 30, 2014 16:34
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CommieGIR posted:Don't take this the wrong way, but you are a loving moron if you think this is true. Well just look at all these interracial marriages that are happening! No one listens to tradition. The decline is unstoppable now. Thanks a lot First Amendment.
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Dec 30, 2014 16:34
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Kyrie eleison posted:Censorship is traditionally supported by the Church, in cases of obscenity or heresy. Also an essential Platonic idea, and by essential I mean he thought it was absolutely necessary that media and ideas be tightly controlled to encourage the strength of the nation-state. Anti-censorship is a modern liberal value, and it contributes more than anything else to cultural decline. Without reference to your religion, what is this "cultural decline" of which you speak? Most forms of violence are at or near historic lows (per capita) in most of the western world, arts and sciences are chugging along nicely, fewer children are dying, what more do you want?
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Dec 30, 2014 16:35
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VitalSigns posted:Thanks a lot First Amendment. Damned Liberal founding fathers! 
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Dec 30, 2014 16:35
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Kyrie eleison posted:You're being intentionally obtuse, so I'm adding you to ignore.  He's argued with others for pages on end, and I go on ignore? Where is the justice? Oh, right, with God. Duh!
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Dec 30, 2014 16:35
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DrProsek posted:Does that mean God has willed that the Czech and French stopped being majority Catholic? Since you claim to know what is and is not God's will, I figure you may as well answer a few other questions since you're already here. "God's will" is used in two ways. Everything that happens is by his will, in one sense, because He allows it. The other sense, what God actively wants for us, is that all men be saved. It is not God's desire that people abandon eternal life.
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Dec 30, 2014 16:35
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Dzhay posted:Why all the Plato, mate-o?  Traditional Values Kyrie eleison posted:"God's will" is used in two ways. Everything that happens is by his will, in one sense, because He allows it. The other sense, what God actively wants for us, is that all men be saved. It is not God's desire that people abandon eternal life. Prove it. God isn't even very good at proving this claim himself if the Old Testament is anything to go off of. "You fuckers made a mess of my grand creation, TIME TO FLOOD YOU OUT OF EXISTENCE!"You cannot claim 'Truth' without some testable way to come to that conclusion. If that was true, anybody could make poo poo up and claim it as truth because they felt it to be true. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 16:41 on Dec 30, 2014 |
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Dec 30, 2014 16:36
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Kyrie eleison posted:"God's will" is used in two ways. Everything that happens is by his will, in one sense, because He allows it. The other sense, what God actively wants for us, is that all men be saved. It is not God's desire that people abandon eternal life. So I take it that after all of your ranting, you don't actually believe in predestination? Hardcore conservative catholics always run to Plato. It is the way of things, and always has been.
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Dec 30, 2014 16:36
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Disinterested posted:So I take it that after all of your ranting, you don't actually believe in predestination? We have talked about predestination before, and how it is compatible with free will. Predestination means that God knows what choices you will make. I have also talked about Plato before in this thread.
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Dec 30, 2014 16:41
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Kyrie eleison posted:We have talked about predestination before, and how it is compatible with free will. Predestination means that God knows what choices you will make. One of these things is not like the other, one of these things is incompatible with Free Will.
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Dec 30, 2014 16:42
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Kyrie eleison posted:"God's will" is used in two ways. Everything that happens is by his will, in one sense, because He allows it. The other sense, what God actively wants for us, is that all men be saved. It is not God's desire that people abandon eternal life. If God wants all men to be saved them he should just save all men regardless. Boom, problem solved. Apparently according to you though he hates women and doesn't want all of them to be saved. Gonna be a real sausagefest in heaven.
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Dec 30, 2014 16:46
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Who What Now posted:If God wants all men to be saved them he should just save all men regardless. Boom, problem solved. Ahem.... .....God Works in Mysterious Ways. There. Gap Found.
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Dec 30, 2014 16:47
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Kyrie eleison posted:We have talked about predestination before, and how it is compatible with free will. Predestination means that God knows what choices you will make. You were wrong about it then and you're still wrong about it now, as are the drooling idiots of your church that you're parroting.
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Dec 30, 2014 16:48
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Who What Now posted:Apparently according to you though he hates women and doesn't want all of them to be saved. Gonna be a real sausagefest in heaven. More women are religious than men.
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Dec 30, 2014 16:50
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Kyrie eleison posted:More women are religious than men. Too bad they are all Predestined, so their choices are for naught.
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Dec 30, 2014 16:52
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One soul saved is worth more than an infinite damned.
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Dec 30, 2014 16:57
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Kyrie eleison posted:One soul saved is worth more than an infinite damned. "Better a thousand innocent men be wrongfully executed than allow one guilty man free"
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Dec 30, 2014 16:58
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Kyrie eleison posted:One soul saved is worth more than an infinite damned. Because we're weighing the worth of people. Christians are worth more than others. Why do you hate people?
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Dec 30, 2014 16:59
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Who What Now posted:"Better a thousand innocent men be wrongfully executed than allow one guilty man free" There are no innocent men. But there are repentant men.
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Dec 30, 2014 17:03
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Kyrie eleison posted:There are no innocent men. But there are repentant men. There are Predestined Men.
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Dec 30, 2014 17:04
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CommieGIR posted:One of these things is not like the other, one of these things is incompatible with Free Will. I hate to defend anything Kyri says, but this is fine. "Free will" never really meant much in the first place and having someone outside the system who can see all variables that you can't measure doesn't make it mean any less.
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Dec 30, 2014 17:06
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CommieGIR posted:Too bad they are all Predestined, so their choices are for naught. I mean, the classic doctrine of predestination is logically coherent depending on what your definition of freedom is. Mine is not the same as the church's. The (allegedly infallible - hahaha) church has shitted it up progressively though. The argument eventually becomes, in simple terms: Free will is ordained by god: all sinners have a concrete chance at being saved. However, if people saved themselves, it would not be God's will or the sacrifice of Christ at work. Moreover, god is omniscient and omnipotent. Therefore, god knows you will sin, and has pre-ordained his permission that you do. Ergo, god has pre-ordained who will and will not be saved, but you are (in a sense) still free. The circle never really does get comfortably squared, in my view, but to some people all of this poo poo seems quite coherent and reasonable. CommieGIR posted:There are Predestined Men. Catholics aren't full Calvinist. So Catholics simultaneously have to make this weird noise of 'yes there are but no there aren't. Disinterested fucked around with this message at 17:09 on Dec 30, 2014 |
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Dec 30, 2014 17:06
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Disinterested posted:I mean, the classic doctrine of predestination is logically coherent depending on what your definition of freedom is. Mine is not the same as the church's. The Church embraces the complexity of things. Others try to oversimplify and thus lose the full picture.
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Dec 30, 2014 17:11
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Kyrie eleison posted:The Church embraces the complexity of things. Others try to oversimplify and thus lose the full picture. That's one way of trying to explain how a supposedly infallible church has backpedalled on a thousand issues and created a cluttered mess of its doctrine. It's almost as if the doctrines of the church are becoming a little...relativised. I think the pope should claim to the be the secular ruler of the whole earth again, that would be super.
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Dec 30, 2014 17:14
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Kyrie eleison posted:The Church embraces the complexity of things. Others try to oversimplify and thus lose the full picture. "We can make things mean whatever we want to through the power of 'interpretation', nyah nyah" Dzhay posted:I hate to defend anything Kyri says, but this is fine. "Free will" never really meant much in the first place and having someone outside the system who can see all variables that you can't measure doesn't make it mean any less. I know, but Kyrie bringing up Predestination was just too good to pass up. At this point I've accepted that this thread is just masturbatory fantasies for Kyrie, so might as well have fun with it. Disinterested posted:Catholics aren't full Calvinist. So Catholics simultaneously have to make this weird noise of 'yes there are but no there aren't. True.
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Dec 30, 2014 17:15
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Dzhay posted:I hate to defend anything Kyri says, but this is fine. "Free will" never really meant much in the first place and having someone outside the system who can see all variables that you can't measure doesn't make it mean any less. God can't just see "all the variables" though, he can see the exact and only choices you will make in your life from birth to death and it is impossible to deviate from the 'choices' he knows you will make. A choice of only one option isn't a choice at all, and so there can be no free will. I mean, there isn't free will anyway because we're constrained by the limits of our meat-brains, but still.
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Dec 30, 2014 17:16
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Who What Now posted:God can't just see "all the variables" though, he can see the exact and only choices you will make in your life from birth to death and it is impossible to deviate from the 'choices' he knows you will make. A choice of only one option isn't a choice at all, and so there can be no free will. No no, but you see, he gives you permission to make that only choice, so it's K.
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Dec 30, 2014 17:17
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A lot of words about this. God would not be God if he didn't know if a single person was going to heaven or hell even before he created the universe. The question is why does God want us in heaven with him. Been there for eons without us, then all of a sudden wants to force bipeds to cut either their cocks or other peoples heads off to join him and sing forever. If God wants us with him, he has an insecurity over something, and therefore isnt God.
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Dec 30, 2014 17:18
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Disinterested posted:No no, but you see, he gives you permission to make that only choice, so it's K. Well, he does in the New Testament. Old Testament god would've hit the big red button and nuked your rear end back to the stone age.
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Dec 30, 2014 17:18
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To the various Christians and pseudochristian trolls in this thread: if you're going to go full Plato, does your God not end up being timeless and unchanging? If so, how can it think, or have opinions on whither dicks should go?
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Dec 30, 2014 17:19
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Dzhay posted:To the various Christians and pseudochristian trolls in this thread: if you're going to go full Plato, does your God not end up being timeless and unchanging? If so, how can it think, or have opinions on whither dicks should go? God never said don't be gay, he said don't be fay. Being gay is fine, he's just against prancing.
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Dec 30, 2014 17:22
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Disinterested posted:That's one way of trying to explain how a supposedly infallible church has backpedalled on a thousand issues and created a cluttered mess of its doctrine. It's almost as if the doctrines of the church are becoming a little...relativised. Essential doctrines held by the Church are infallible, such as the Trinity, the Assumption of Mary, the Real Presence, outside the Church there is no salvation, etc. Not everything the Church does is infallible. It is human and has had plenty of corruption throughout its history. During and after Vatican II, there have been some excessive attempts at "ecumenism" by some overly ambitious (and likely corrupt) theologians, but they will ultimately be seen as errors by history. The Protestant solution to the problem of corruption in humanity, and therefore the Church, is to just endlessly schism so you can always say you're in the "pure" church. I prefer to stand by the traditional church of Christ, warts and all. I have myself failed, so I feel quite at home amongst my brethren.
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Dec 30, 2014 17:23
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Who What Now posted:God can't just see "all the variables" though, he can see the exact and only choices you will make in your life from birth to death and it is impossible to deviate from the 'choices' he knows you will make. A choice of only one option isn't a choice at all, and so there can be no free will. Well yeah, but that wouldn't affect the rest of us who aren't gods. We're still unpredictable as far as we're concerned. Yeah, it does seem a bit crazy for a guy to be looking at a still image of wavy lines and then getting annoyed because one of the lines "decided" to zig rather than zag. Especially if he drew the lines himself. (Also see my previous question about how he could "get" anything)
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Dec 30, 2014 17:24
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Dzhay posted:Well yeah, but that wouldn't affect the rest of us who aren't gods. We're still unpredictable as far as we're concerned. Yeah, it does seem a bit crazy for a guy to be looking at a still image of wavy lines and then getting annoyed because one of the lines "decided" to zig rather than zag. Especially if he drew the lines himself. (Also see my previous question about how he could "get" anything) Oh sure, we appear to have free will but do not have it in actuality.
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Dec 30, 2014 17:25
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