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emanresu tnuocca posted:I had a whimsical thought yesterday as I was going to bed, as an extension of the 'what is there to negotiate' notion, it would be a grand move by Abbas to publicly call for Israel to list its pre-requisites for a peace treaty, to clearly state what it requires from Palestinians so that it could end the occupation, pushing this point would really be the best way to unmask Israel and prove to anyone who still doubts that the occupation is intended to be permanent. I dunno, it doesn't seem like much of a "gotcha" to me - Israel could easily list off some conditions that are totally unacceptable to Palestine but not so odious that Israel's supporters can be convinced that there's anything wrong with the conditions. Besides, although they haven't really ever announced a formal list, there's been some fairly common demands from the Israel side in I/P negotiations: for example, prohibiting a potential future Palestinian state from allying with any country without Israel's say-so, maintaining full Israeli control over Palestinian airspace, giving Israel the right to make military incursions into Palestinian territory at any time for "security purposes", and demanding that Palestine forever renounce any and all claims and grievances it may have against Israel. I've noticed Israel repeatedly making demands like those in negotiations in recent years, and while they're totally and completely unacceptable to Palestinians, they fall closely enough to existing talking points that Israel's supporters don't have to do much stretching to claim they're justified and necessary.
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Jan 1, 2015 11:14
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Main Paineframe posted:I dunno, it doesn't seem like much of a "gotcha" to me - Israel could easily list off some conditions that are totally unacceptable to Palestine but not so odious that Israel's supporters can be convinced that there's anything wrong with the conditions. Besides, although they haven't really ever announced a formal list, there's been some fairly common demands from the Israel side in I/P negotiations: for example, prohibiting a potential future Palestinian state from allying with any country without Israel's say-so, maintaining full Israeli control over Palestinian airspace, giving Israel the right to make military incursions into Palestinian territory at any time for "security purposes", and demanding that Palestine forever renounce any and all claims and grievances it may have against Israel. I've noticed Israel repeatedly making demands like those in negotiations in recent years, and while they're totally and completely unacceptable to Palestinians, they fall closely enough to existing talking points that Israel's supporters don't have to do much stretching to claim they're justified and necessary. Well, that's true but ultimately Abbas can always keep calling Israel's bluffs, as his administration did several times in the past but never on a truly public stage. The fact is that Abbas actually agreed to some of these completely unacceptable demands in the past, all negotiations ultimately failed when the issue of IDF withdrawal from the west bank with or without the evacuation of the non-major settlements. I suspect that Abbas realizes that whatever terms Israel dictates right now that infringe upon Palestinian sovereignty could eventually be renegotiated from a much better position once Palestine actually exists as an internationally recognized sovereign entity which is why he was willing to discuss some of these terms with Olmert/Livni. Israel will never willingly withdraw its troops from the West Bank, this is what the majority of the "truth is in the middle" kind of people around the world fail to recognize and need to be shown.
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Jan 1, 2015 11:33
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My Imaginary GF posted:anti-semetic rhetoric like "Israel made ICC drop charges" How is that anti-semitic? Is "Kenya made ICC drop charges" anti-semitic too?
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Jan 1, 2015 11:39
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So here is a bit more fuel to the fire. HarperCollins omits Israel from school atlas. An atlas publisher deliberately removed Israel off of a series of Atlas' that were to be sold in the Middle East. At the same time, they marked in Gaza and the West Bank. quote:However, Collins Bartholomew, the subsidiary of HarperCollins that specialises in maps, said that including Israel would have been “unacceptable” to their customers in the Gulf and the amendment incorporated “local preferences”. Apparently though, they're removing said Middle East Atlas from sale and destroying their inventory of it. E: One step forward, one step back I guess. Pointing out Gaza and the West Bank is good (would it be better labeled as Palestine?), but scraping Israel off the map is a terrible, terrible, terrible idea. It'd be nice if they actually had both. Brainbread fucked around with this message at 21:22 on Jan 1, 2015 |
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Jan 1, 2015 21:19
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Brainbread posted:So here is a bit more fuel to the fire. Since wiping Israel off the map is literally genocide, I guess that makes them genocidaires, subject to universal jurisdiction for crimes against humanity 
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Jan 1, 2015 21:31
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eSports Chaebol posted:Since wiping Israel off the map is literally genocide, I guess that makes them genocidaires, subject to universal jurisdiction for crimes against humanity It's really stupid and indicative of the ostrich-head anti-Zionist politics rampant in the Arab world. Yeah, I'm sure ignoring Israel is going to make it go away. Worked really great for the past 67 years. 
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Jan 1, 2015 21:38
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The same basic story pops up every few years. An oddly decent source is typing site:snopes.com israel into google.
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Jan 1, 2015 22:07
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In election-related news, Likud had their primaries. Here's a picture of places 1-25, where I think 1-20 are considered "realistic" for getting into the Knesset (where you might say it's time to think about quitting your day-job, or preparing to vacate it for a bit): Notably absent is Moshe Feiglin, the deputy speaker of the Knesset notorious for his unapologetic racist views and his abuse of power to silence Arab MK's. Don't think anyone is going to miss him. I guess his entryists just couldn't do better than Netanyahu's machine.
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Jan 1, 2015 22:21
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Notably absent is Moshe Feiglin
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Jan 1, 2015 23:29
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So Israel is expecting the ICC to reject Palestine's bid to join. What are the odds of this happening?
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Jan 1, 2015 23:31
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A. Beaverhausen posted:So Israel is expecting the ICC to reject Palestine's bid to join. What are the odds of this happening? That's hard to believe, considering their chief prosecutor declared not a few months ago that she was just waiting for an official request from them.
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Jan 1, 2015 23:33
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Guess it's just Israel once again expecting poo poo they have no reason too.
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Jan 1, 2015 23:36
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A. Beaverhausen posted:So Israel is expecting the ICC to reject Palestine's bid to join. What are the odds of this happening? Yeah, they are going to be allowed to join. Whether or not they file an ad hoc declaration to "back date" ICC jurisdiction to June of last year in order to file a complaint re:Protective Edge is another issue. The OTP would open a prelim investigation which could (and probably will) take months/years to reach a conclusion before a formal investigation is even opened, which would give Israel time to open their own domestic investigation that would scupper attempts to kick it up to the ICC under the complementarity principle. If they are going to file a complaint they would probably be better suited to focus on the settlement issue.
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Jan 1, 2015 23:48
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Absurd Alhazred posted:In election-related news, Likud had their primaries. Here's a picture of places 1-25, where I think 1-20 are considered "realistic" for getting into the Knesset (where you might say it's time to think about quitting your day-job, or preparing to vacate it for a bit):
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Jan 2, 2015 00:11
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Cat Mattress posted:Is "Minority sector Ayoob Kara" an Arab? Yes, he's a druze.
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Jan 2, 2015 00:15
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Cat Mattress posted:Is "Minority sector Ayoob Kara" an Arab? "Mintority" is a euphemism for Arabs and Druze, usually. In this case, he is a Druze. e: beaten, but I've got a link! It counts!
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Jan 2, 2015 00:15
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Absurd Alhazred posted:"Mintority" is a euphemism for Arabs and Druze, usually. In this case, he is a Druze. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I've been led to understand that Druze are viewed as somewhat of a "model minority" by right wing Israelis and are more accepted than other Arabs.
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Jan 2, 2015 00:18
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xrunner posted:Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I've been led to understand that Druze are viewed as somewhat of a "model minority" by right wing Israelis and are more accepted than other Arabs. They and those Bedouins who serve, somewhat. But once they take off their uniforms, they're basically treated the same. Or as Yonatan Gefen puts it: Xander77 posted:A ballad to a Druze, by Yonatan Gefen. (I wanted to link to an article someone posted fairly recently comparing the Sikh and Duze positions as "plucky warrior cultures" co-opted by the Brits and Israelis here, but I can't seem to find it)
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Jan 2, 2015 00:21
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Just to add one more thing on the whole Palestine/ICC issue, David Bosco made a good post on Points of Order on the possible outcomes. He does bring up something that hasn't been mentioned much which is that the United Nations Security Council has the power to indefinitely defer investigations under Article 16 of the Rome Statute: Rome Statute posted:Article 16 It's pretty easy to forget Article 16 exists as the UNSC has never invoked it but if any investigation gains traction you never know what can happen...
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Jan 2, 2015 00:26
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kustomkarkommando posted:Just to add one more thing on the whole Palestine/ICC issue, David Bosco made a good post on Points of Order on the possible outcomes. Well, in that case, one of the other Permanent Members could veto such a resolution.
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Jan 2, 2015 00:28
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Well, in that case, one of the other Permanent Members could veto such a resolution. I don't think Russia would veto the move as it would weaken the ICC which would be to their advantage considering the prelim Ukrainian investigation. China I'm not too sure of, would probably abstain considering their luke-warm opinions about the ICC.. Which leaves the UK and France, either of them moving to veto would be a pretty bold move and I could see them being enticed to vote in favour if a deferral was portrayed as necessary to restart negotiations. It's not outside the realms of possibility.
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Jan 2, 2015 00:37
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To anyone who's still somewhat confused about the efficacy of IDF internal investigations there's an interesting piece by "John Brown" (it's a pseudonym obviously) on Mekomit (Local Call), the Hebrew counterpart of 972, unfortunately Mr. Brown isn't too fluent in English so it's doubtful whether this story will get translated so I'll summarize it quickly and post that link so that fellow hebrew speakers won't able to accuse me of biased translations: http://mekomit.co.il/%D7%A8%D7%A9%D...99%D7%94%D7%90/ The piece recounts several cases in which IDF soldiers used lethal fire against Palestinian civilians who weren't doing anything 'terror' related and then later lied about the circumstances, eventually in most of these cases the IDF recanted from its fallacious versions yet no criminal charges were filed: * June 25th 2004 - Around 9 PM, 3 Palestinian family members of the Islaim family were out on the porch of their own residence having a conversation, they stood there for about 2 hours when without any prior warning Ihab Islaim, 17 at the time, was murdered with a single shot to the head, his younger brother who 15 was injured from shrapnel and lost sight in one of his eyes. For two years the IDF claimed it is not able to ascertain the identity of the perpetrators and no official investigation was held. Btselem filed their own report to the military police which eventually did prompt the IDF to investigate, this launches a series of farcical cover ups that includes the IDF 'misplacing' the reports and erasing records. Long story short, eventually five soldiers were investigated, none of them could explain why Ihab suddenly became an immediate threat worthy of lethal fire but the MP was appeased and claimed that there was no cause to file any charges, the main commander still serves in the IDF to this day, he's now a high ranking officer. * February 26 2007 - The city of Nablus was under curfew when Annan a-Tibi, 52, went to the roof of his own home to fix a malfunction in his water collection tanks, him and his sons noticed IDF troopers on one of the nearby rooftops so they decided staying on the roof at the time was a bad idea, they began making their way down when Annan was shot in his neck by the IDF soldiers, he fell down the stairswell and died from his injuries, the soldiers explained "innocent people should not be outside during a curfew", which is of course irrelevant as they weren't outside, not to mention that the IDF ROE require firing warning shots in cases where no immediate threat is posed. No charges filed against the soldiers. * April 2004, near Nablus - Dr. Yaser Ahmed Muhammad Abu Lyman, 32 at the time, was lethally shot in the village of Tluza. The IDF at first claimed he was a Hamas operative, this was soon proven false as he was in fact a lecturer in the Arab-American University in Jenin, so the IDF changed the story and claimed that he knew some Hamas operatives, eventually the IDF also recanted this story and simply claimed it was a case of misidentification as the victim was wearing clothing that was similar to those of a terror suspect who was known to be at the region in the time. No investigation. * March 2004, Nablus - 6 year old Khaled Maher Zaki Walwil was shot and killed for the crime of looking outside his bedroom's window at the IDF troopers as they were advancing in the Balta refugee camp. And it goes on and on. he sent this collection of cases to the IDF spokesperson two weeks ago but didn't receive any response. "Military justice is to justice what military music is to music." etc emanresu tnuocca fucked around with this message at 13:21 on Jan 2, 2015 |
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Jan 2, 2015 13:14
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Here's a hot one:quote:
Lucky for the settlers that the american security personnel don't have as lax ROE as IDF soldiers do when it comes to stone throwers. Remember this the next time we're told that "stones can kill".
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Jan 2, 2015 15:09
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Probably a good thing no settlers were killed though, it would have just lead to even greater concessions and support for Israel by way of apology for the evil actions of the security guards.
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Jan 2, 2015 15:20
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The comments on that article are getting real goodquote:Finally, for your informations, in Italy we have thousands of Rom people, they are more settlers than anyone else in this world, but we take care of them and never ever,we use downgrade words against them...Stop this settler nonsense,please...they have the rights to be called what they are...all racist people should not work in in news....get a job somewhere else,you do not deserve to talk about humans.. I love it when people think that the word "settlers" has a negative connotation when it is in fact that Jewish settlers in the west bank who gave this word a negative connotation, it's a name they originally preferred and use. Also big lol at the anti-roma racism.
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Jan 2, 2015 16:15
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It really wouldn't surprise me if there was some massive pushback against the vocabulary of settlement in Israel by the right because it is contrary to the belief that people are merely taking rightful repossession of what was rightfully theirs all along.
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Jan 2, 2015 16:19
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In somewhat lighter news, Gaza's government employees have gone on strike over the PA's plans to fire the 50,000 people who were hired under the Hamas administration (and whom the PA has refused to pay) and rehire the 70,000 PA employees who were laid off during and after 2007 (and who have been receiving steady paychecks from the PA ever since, despite not working). Probably not really a good idea from the PA, honestly. While their desire to get rid of Hamas employees and bring back their own is certainly understandable, it's pretty impressive that the Hamas employees continued to work for over six months with almost no disruptions in services, and completely screwing the people who've shown that kind of dedication is probably not going to end well. Especially since over half of them are working security functions currently, and most of those are probably armed. Going out of their way to gently caress over 20,000 cops, security guards, militia, and other armed keepers of the peace is not really a good idea for the PA, who desperately need to build loyalty and trust in Gaza if they don't want Hamas to just take it back whenever they feel like. Firing everyone affiliated with Hamas and rehiring their old loyalists will probably be a net loss in the long run, especially considering that they've been paying the latter's full salaries for seven years while screwing the Hamas employees even during the supposed unity government. Abbas has been handed Gaza on a silver platter, but there's no guarantee he's going to be able to keep it when Hamas decides they want it back. He needs to be laying the groundwork for popular support of the PA in Gaza, but so far, I haven't heard of the PA doing much to benefit Gazans who aren't already PA supporters. The reconstruction, which was supposed to be the golden goose that gave Abbas his foothold there, has stalled out in basically every way imaginable - international donors have ponied up only a small fraction of the necessary money, Israel isn't allowing enough materials through, the UN aid workers delayed the process for months while they attempted to come up with an oversight mechanism, the PA is failing to take ownership of Gaza and has been slow to distribute the aid, Hamas has been intimidating and attacking Fatah ministers, and lately it seems that some PA officials have been diverting aid to themselves to sell at a profit and others have been handing it out to whoever gives them the biggest bribe. quote:Hamas employees strike over expected job losses
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Jan 2, 2015 16:50
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Disinterested posted:It really wouldn't surprise me if there was some massive pushback against the vocabulary of settlement in Israel by the right because it is contrary to the belief that people are merely taking rightful repossession of what was rightfully theirs all along. There has been this pushback for a while, attempting to replace "מתנחל" with "מתיישב". As emanresu mentioned, the former only became a slur due to settler action, not because anybody made that name up for them. I don't know how to translate the distinction into English, though; I think they would both translate into "settler". Main Paineframe posted:In somewhat lighter news, Gaza's government employees have gone on strike over the PA's plans to fire the 50,000 people who were hired under the Hamas administration (and whom the PA has refused to pay) and rehire the 70,000 PA employees who were laid off during and after 2007 (and who have been receiving steady paychecks from the PA ever since, despite not working). Nobody learns anything from history, do they? Armed+unemployed=bad. 
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Jan 2, 2015 17:53
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Absurd Alhazred posted:There has been this pushback for a while, attempting to replace "מתנחל" with "מתיישב". As emanresu mentioned, the former only became a slur due to settler action, not because anybody made that name up for them. I don't know how to translate the distinction into English, though; I think they would both translate into "settler". I mean for anglos, but that's an interesting insight. Can you explain the change of emphasis between the two?
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Jan 2, 2015 18:08
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emanresu tnuocca posted:The comments on that article are getting real good Yeah, my jaw kind of dropped when I saw that person trying to say Roma folks get treated well and are never exposed to racism.
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Jan 2, 2015 18:13
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Disinterested posted:I mean for anglos, but that's an interesting insight. Can you explain the change of emphasis between the two? מתיישב - Mithashev - comes from the root Y.Sh.V, it is basically the passive form of settling somewhere. מתנהל - Mitnahel - comes from the word N.H.L.A which originally means inheritance but more colloquially means 'A plot of land', has the natural connotation of 'Ancestral Ground', so in the context of the settlements it actually contains the connotation of 'repossessing something which legally belongs to you' as it is also in the passive form, either in the sense of being the recipient of inheritance or reclaiming a plot of land which you should own. So it is rather amusing that the settlers themselves push for "Mityahsvim" and the only reason they do so is because of the negative connotations caused by their own actions.
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Jan 2, 2015 18:17
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Disinterested posted:I mean for anglos, but that's an interesting insight. Can you explain the change of emphasis between the two? Well... it's more that they're pretty much synonyms, except etymologically, "מתנחל"="mitnahel" comes from the same root as "נחלה" = "nahala", meaning sort of like "estate", while "מתיישב" = "mityashev" comes from the same root as "יישוב" = "yeshuv", meaning... settlement. A Biblical way of expressing ownership of Israel is that it is "the estate of our fathers"="נחלת אבותינו". On the other hand, "yeshuv" is how the old Jewish settlement organization was called before 1948, so there's a level of euphemism in trying to be associated with something more neutral to a Zionist ear than "settlement", which is now associated with those in the West Bank, and previously in Gaza and in the Northern Sinai. It's kind of like how people used to proudly call themselves "colonists", and they don't do it so much anymore. e: fb. But you're saying "passive form" - it's more the reflexive form. Like "I'm taking a shower" = "ani mitrahetz" (reflexive), "I'm showering my child" = "ani rohets et hayeled sheli" (active) and "I'm being showered by my parent" = "ani nerhatz al yedei hahore sheli" (passive, although highly uncommon; you would just reverse subject and object and use the active voice, usually). Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 18:20 on Jan 2, 2015 |
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Jan 2, 2015 18:17
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emanresu tnuocca posted:I love it when people think that the word "settlers" has a negative connotation when it is in fact that Jewish settlers in the west bank who gave this word a negative connotation, it's a name they originally preferred and use. Also big lol at the anti-roma racism. What about calling them colonists? They are, after all, assholes. (That pun is probably not translatable to Hebrew.)
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Jan 2, 2015 18:22
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Absurd Alhazred posted:e: fb. But you're saying "passive form" - it's more the reflexive form. Like "I'm taking a shower" = "ani mitrahetz" (reflexive), "I'm showering my child" = "ani rohets et hayeled sheli" (active) and "I'm being showered by my parent" = "ani nerhatz al yedei hahore sheli" (passive, although highly uncommon; you would just reverse subject and object and use the active voice, usually). Don't make me invoke grammar godwin in here! Honestly I hardly remember all this grammatical nonsense, and certainly not in English, so listen to Absurd on this one. בניין מתפעל innit? I don't know. Edit: the actual derogatory term for settlers is "Mitnahablim" which is a portmanteau between Mitnahel and Mehabel, Settler + Terrorist. emanresu tnuocca fucked around with this message at 18:27 on Jan 2, 2015 |
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Jan 2, 2015 18:24
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Main Paineframe posted:In somewhat lighter news, Gaza's government employees have gone on strike over the PA's plans to fire the 50,000 people who were hired under the Hamas administration (and whom the PA has refused to pay) and rehire the 70,000 PA employees who were laid off during and after 2007 (and who have been receiving steady paychecks from the PA ever since, despite not working).
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Jan 2, 2015 18:26
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Cat Mattress posted:What about calling them colonists? They are, after all, assholes. Actually, we could call them "ישבנים". "ישבן" = "yashvan" comes from the same root as "yeshuv", but means "butt". emanresu tnuocca posted:Don't make me invoke grammar godwin in here! בניין התפעל. We need a combination of  and 
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Jan 2, 2015 18:27
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Nobody learns anything from history, do they? Armed+unemployed=bad.
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Jan 2, 2015 18:46
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Frontiersmen/people would probably sound better to an American audience but for anyone bothered by the term settler invoking frontier towns isn't going to sound much better, both have connotations of land theft and genocide of native people.
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Jan 2, 2015 18:48
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ReV VAdAUL posted:Frontiersmen/people would probably sound better to an American audience but for anyone bothered by the term settler invoking frontier towns isn't going to sound much better, both have connotations of land theft and genocide of native people. Not really, they have connotations of wild days, lots of alcohol, and the enduring spirit of American can-do attitude. Calling settlers 'frontiersmen' would be an appropriate move.
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Jan 2, 2015 18:50
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My Imaginary GF posted:Not really, they have connotations of wild days, lots of alcohol, and the enduring spirit of American can-do attitude. Not really. A frontier is a vast, unexplored expanse that you are among the first to explore, which West Bank is not. They aren't moving there for adventure or to find a new way to strike it rich. They're just moving there so Palestinians can't. Not very frontiersmanlike.
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Jan 2, 2015 18:58
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