Rent-A-Cop posted:

Reminder that one of those hyper-local citizen patrols "dealt with" Trayvon Martin.

computer parts posted:

I wouldn't say that's inherently true, or else you wouldn't get these hyper balkanized communities like Ferguson et all.

The issue is really that in areas with unrest there's a lot of public support (at least usually*) for oppressing minorities, and there's a large disinterest in consolidation of police to some higher level (state, national, etc).

*NYC being the exception, although that seems to be an issue of institutional inertia rather than everyone (outside of Staten Island) saying "gently caress the blacks".

Omi-Polari posted:

That's a good point. But would increasing police-citizen interaction make those interactions better? I'm not so sure.

And this isn't unprecedented. The kinds of organizations I'm talking about (like Shomrim) already exist and are unarmed. We talk about black self-government and self-policing, but people seem really scared of what that would look like in practice. But why not?

Omi-Polari posted:

It's basically hyper-local "cops" who people can call to deal with stuff. If the local militia (or volunteer patrol, or whatever you want to call them) think the situation needs the formal police, then they can call them. They'd get informal training from the police. They'd have them on speed dial. It's not rocket science.

If one of these groups dealt with Eric Garner instead of the NYPD, the situation might've turned out differently. Or maybe not. But the general idea is that the citizen's groups have much less leeway when it comes to using force.

I remember when I was in the Castro in S.F. and talked to two men who were part of a gay men's street patrol. They had uniforms and gave me a whistle to blow (har har) in case I got into trouble. And they had a number I could dial. I liked the idea.

Rent-A-Cop posted:

Yeah but those countries aren't America, and America has yet to find a problem it can't solve with union busting and militias.

I mean, it worked so well in Central America for all those years. Why shouldn't it work in NYC?

Vahakyla posted:

Soooo when you called the number you got vigilantes?
Or what?

I mean let's say you needed the whistle and the number. What then?

Vahakyla posted:

It is great though, here we are discussing union busting and militias as solutions to police abuse.

Shbobdb posted:

By forming a group dedicated to upholding justice and self-defense? Also, provide free school lunches.

Omi-Polari posted:

The main thing is presence and just keeping up appearances. The other thing is there's reluctance in the gay community to report crimes directly to the police for various reasons. You don't want to risk being re-victimized, or your report not being taken seriously. This is definitely on the soft-end of community policing. Shomrim up in New York gets a little more "handsy" from what I'm reading.
... What if there is no solution? No, what I'm saying is that there are things communities can do to insulate themselves from the police within reasonable limits (although police are still needed to handle actual, serious crimes throughout every community).

Sharkie posted:

I was thinking about this idea. I'm skeptical of state-based community patrols, or patrols that are otherwise tied closely to police departments -- they'd probably just end up echoing the problems a community has with the real police. But I did think that unarmed, ground-up community organizations might be a helpful thing to have, and one of my reasons for thinking so was that people who are rightfully hesitant to go to the police might be more willing to go to a group that is made up of, and beholden to, the local community. They could be a police alternative for things like property crimes and conflict resolution. I don't know that it would work, but I think in some places it could.

Vahakyla posted:

Militias are pretty right, I'd say.

Sharkie posted:

Eh, it depends on what they're militant about and their actions. Black panthers, for instance.

Gum posted:

Yeah, the perfect solution for an unaccountable-in-practice police force is an unaccountable-even-in-theory private militia

Gum posted:

Yeah, the perfect solution for an unaccountable-in-practice police force is an unaccountable-even-in-theory private militia

SedanChair posted:

The Followers of the Apocalypse?

Omi-Polari posted:

I remember when I was in the Castro in S.F. and talked to two men who were part of a gay men's street patrol. They had uniforms and gave me a whistle to blow (har har) in case I got into trouble. And they had a number I could dial. I liked the idea.

quote:

San Francisco Patrol Special Police is a neighborhood police force authorized in San Francisco's City Charter but not part of the San Francisco Police Department. Rather they are unsworn officers, private citizens, appointed and regulated by the San Francisco Police Commission after an initial security review by the San Francisco Police Department. They are assigned, or purchase, a specific area, or beat and charge private clients hourly rates for a variety of services.

Shbobdb posted:

That's basically it. Unions are good. Cops are bad. Cop unions aren't bad because they are unions, they are bad because they are cops.

Rah! posted:

There's also an SF chapter of the Guardian Angels. I've seen them a few times over the years, but it's not like they're out there that often.

And on the topic of law enforcement in SF...does any other city have something similar to the SF Patrol Special Police?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Patrol_Special_Police

30.5 Days posted:

But likewise cops don't get away with corruptions because unions any more than they get away with murder because defense attorneys. They get away with both because we as a society are pretty much cool with it, and not union busting or department reform or retraining or any of this poo poo will make up for the fact that citizens do not have the courage and motivation to call officers to account.

Radbot posted:

Since my choice is basically zero unions, with a very weak teacher's union and an insanely strong police union, or no unions, I choose no unions.

The instant a single police union in the entire nation does anything in solidarity with another non-police union, I will change my tune.

30.5 Days posted:

The Warszawa posted:

Have we discussed that the FOP has asked Congress to expand the Hate Crimes Act of 1969 to cover targeted killings of police?

Xandu posted:

That's an odd one. It sounds like they're doing private security? In a lot of cities off-duty cops will do that sort of work with government permission. They're armed though.

Rah! posted:

Yeah it seems like they're some kind of weird cross between police and security guards.

These guys are armed too though (they buy their own guns/uniforms/etc), and apparently had the same powers as any other cop until 1994, when the SFPD stripped their ability to give out citations or book arrests on their own (the SFPD seems to have never liked the patrol specials much...maybe mad at the competition for what they see as security jobs that should belong to off duty officers instead?). They also used to have uniforms basically identical to SFPD officers, but several years ago the SFPD required them to switch to different ones. They still look like cops though, just not normal SFPD officers. I see them sometimes, but there aren't too many of them (wikipedia says there were 40 as of 2011). I always thought it was a weird/interesting police/pseudo-police force.

Jarmak posted:

I know here in MA you're required to hire police details for many things (like the cops you see at events, the organizer is paying to have them there). I'm guessing this is just a special department that only does that, and the regular cops probably also hate them because details is where you make big money on overtime.

Trabisnikof posted:

They might do that too, but they also patrol the streets and check in with the SFPD police commander for their area when they go on duty.

Rent-A-Cop posted:

Cop shoots himself in the stomach fiddling around with his gun like a dumbass.

SedanChair posted:

Did he even know that woman or was he just showing off to some random person in the elevator?

Rent-A-Cop posted:

That was his wife. They were at a shopping mall in Cincinnati IIRC.

Rah! posted:

Yeah it seems like they're some kind of weird cross between police and security guards.

These guys are armed too though (they buy their own guns/uniforms/etc), and apparently had the same powers as any other cop until 1994, when the SFPD stripped their ability to give out citations or book arrests on their own (the SFPD seems to have never liked the patrol specials much...maybe mad at the competition for what they see as security jobs that should belong to off duty officers instead?). They also used to have uniforms basically identical to SFPD officers, but several years ago the SFPD required them to switch to different ones. They still look like cops though, just not normal SFPD officers. I see them sometimes, but there aren't too many of them (wikipedia says there were 40 as of 2011). I always thought it was a weird/interesting police/pseudo-police force.

Rent-A-Cop posted:

Cop shoots himself in the stomach fiddling around with his gun like a dumbass.

Vahakyla posted:

Soooo when you called the number you got vigilantes?
Or what?

I mean let's say you needed the whistle and the number. What then?

AreWeDrunkYet posted:

Just another reminder that police guns really should be in a locked compartment in their patrol cars.