I/P: post-semitism in the desert of the deal

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > I/P: post-semitism in the desert of the deal

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

Baudolino posted:

What does the US risk by having the PA going bankrupt? I just don`t see how Fatah could retalitate against the US and not destroy themselves in the process.
Israel as a nation may lose a lot from chaos in the West bank. But for the right wing militants that would just be super great. They would get to kill more Arabs and whip up even more fear in Israeli voters if PA collapses due to Money problems.
For the oppressors it seems like a double win. Not that i blame Abbas for joining the ICC tough he has to use what meagre weapons he can find to help his People. Giving in to US and Israeli Financial pressure would be political ( and quite possibly literal) suicide.

As far as Israel is concerned, a bankrupt PA can't provide security cooperation or manage the populace. They'd have to run the majority-Palestinian areas themselves. At the very least that's more manpower and more logistics they're responsible for directly, and therefore more targets for insurgents.

# ? Jan 7, 2015 18:14

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# ? Jun 5, 2024 12:22

team overhead smash: Sep 2, 2006; Team-Forest-Tree-Dog:
Smashing your way into our hearts one skylight at a time

Baudolino posted:

What does the US risk by having the PA going bankrupt? I just don`t see how Fatah could retalitate against the US and not destroy themselves in the process.
Israel as a nation may lose a lot from chaos in the West bank. But for the right wing militants that would just be super great. They would get to kill more Arabs and whip up even more fear in Israeli voters if PA collapses due to Money problems.
For the oppressors it seems like a double win. Not that i blame Abbas for joining the ICC tough he has to use what meagre weapons he can find to help his People. Giving in to US and Israeli Financial pressure would be political ( and quite possibly literal) suicide.

To be honest I think an Ak47 would be a better weapon than an ICC referal. To my mind the ideal response would be midway between Hamas and Fatah; a military resistance that did not commit war crimes along with a separate political wing to use those military actions to push for political concessions.

I can't see diplomatic action getting anywhere. The way I see it, rather than providing a genuine legal and diplomatic resistance Fatah is often really quite collaborationist (ICC referral is an exception), while Hamas is hamstrung both because of the unacceptability of its actions (not violent resistance, but rather violent resistance which disproportionately targets civilians, etc) and their regressiveness in other human rights areas that matter to the West like homosexuality.

# ? Jan 7, 2015 18:38

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

Baudolino posted:

What does the US risk by having the PA going bankrupt? I just don`t see how Fatah could retalitate against the US and not destroy themselves in the process.
Israel as a nation may lose a lot from chaos in the West bank. But for the right wing militants that would just be super great. They would get to kill more Arabs and whip up even more fear in Israeli voters if PA collapses due to Money problems.
For the oppressors it seems like a double win. Not that i blame Abbas for joining the ICC tough he has to use what meagre weapons he can find to help his People. Giving in to US and Israeli Financial pressure would be political ( and quite possibly literal) suicide.

Every single alternative to the PA is worse for basically everyone involved. Even the right-wing has limits to how hard they can push - killing the PA will almost certainly resurrect Hamas and unleash armed groups in the settler-filled West Bank, which will be very difficult to defend, and there's been some question about how prepared the IDF really is for a prolonged ground conflict. A recent government report suggests that training quality has declined since 2006, equipment maintenance is shoddy, and all-around preparedness for war is very poor.

Mandy Thompson posted:

Why would Israel oppose Palestinian membership in the ICC unless they though they couldn't win. If Israel's cause is just, they should welcome their day in court. Seems like Israel knows what they are doing is wrong.

When Israel declined to ratify the Rome Treaty, they claimed that the ICC would be abused as a political weapon against them, and that Arab countries were already pressuring it into "inventing" crimes designed to criminalize things that Israel was doing that they considered to be perfectly legal (like settlements). There's no way an excuse that versatile ("Yeah, of course they found us guilty - of a fake crime cooked up by anti-semites specifically to target us, and decided on by a stacked court!") isn't going to be brought back in a few months when the ICC stuff starts moving forward.

http://mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFA-Archive/2002/Pages/Israel%20and%20the%20International%20Criminal%20Court.aspx

quote:

Areas of concern

However, alongside Israel's support for the aspirations of the court, Israel has concerns as to how effectively these will be achieved through the court as it has been constituted. A major concern is that the court will be subjected to political pressures and its impartiality will be compromised. Israel has recently witnessed many international bodies, established for the highest goals such as protecting human rights and fighting racism, cynically abused and turned into political tools. Clearly, the court could only be effective if it remains scrupulously impartial. Regrettably, there are already some troubling indications that this impartiality may be compromised:

Rewriting principles of international law - and inventing new crimes: While the court was intended to address the crimes which had been recognized as being the most serious crimes in international law, in practice the statute of the court frequently fails to reflect those crimes accurately.

For Israel, the clearest example of distorting existing principles of international law, as part of a political agenda, is the inclusion as a war crime of: "the transfer, directly or indirectly, by the occupying power of parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies". This particular offense represents neither a grave breach of the Fourth Geneva Convention, nor does it reflect customary international law. The inclusion of this offense, under the pressure of Arab states, and the addition of the phrase "directly or indirectly," is clearly intended to try to use the court to force the issue of Israeli settlements without the need for negotiation as agreed between the sides.

Selective lists of crimes: The list of crimes included in the court's statute is highly selective. Offenses such as terrorism and drug-trafficking are not included, because of political disputes over their definition and scope. The paradoxical result is that a state acting against acts of terrorism may find itself under the scrutiny of the court for the way it exercises its right of self-defense, while the terrorists themselves are outside the court's jurisdiction.

Appointment of judges: One area in which Israel fears that political discrimination is likely is the appointment of judges to the court. Such appointments are, according to the statute, to be made having consideration to "equitable geographical representation." This formula reflects the standard mode for elections in UN organs based on the UN regional groups system. As Israel is the only UN member state which is not accepted as a full member of any of the regional groups in the system, it seems that no Israeli candidate - however competent - could be elected as judge.

The extensive powers of the prosecutor: In an attempt to bridge the gaps between civil and common law systems, the court has adopted a hybrid approach in which the prosecutor has extensive powers, including to initiate proceedings on his or her own initiative. Israel is concerned that these far-reaching powers are inconsistent with checks and balances necessary in any legal system and leave the role of the prosecutor open to potential abuse.

Israel's dilemma

Israel's deep sympathy with the goals of the court, coupled with its concerns regarding the effectiveness of the statute, has created a serious dilemma for Israel regarding its attitude to the court. In the Rome Conference at which the statute was adopted, Israel, faced with a ruling that no reservations could be made, signed the final act of the conference but was forced to vote against the statute. Explaining Israel's negative vote, the head of Israel's delegation, Judge Eli Nathan, pointed to the inclusion of the crime of transferring population as an example of politicization that Israel could not accept. He concluded:

"We continue to hope that the court will indeed serve the lofty objectives for the attainment of which it is being established."

It was with this aspiration in mind that Israel signed the Rome Treaty on the International Criminal Court in December 2000, as an indication of its hope that the court would remain true to the goals of its founders. However, along with many other states which have not ratified the treaty, Israel is closely following the development of the court to see whether indeed it will genuinely prove to be impartial and effective, and whether, in light of this, it can ratify at a later stage.

# ? Jan 7, 2015 18:54

kustomkarkommando: Oct 22, 2012

Re team overhead smash's question about potential pitfalls Palestine could face at the ICC, here's a chunk from an article by Dave Luban

Palestine and the ICC � Some Legal Questions posted:

The Relevance of Oslo?

But there�s another potential challenge to the ICC�s jurisdiction over Israelis, stemming from the 1993 and 1995 Oslo Accords. Politically, Oslo may be dead, but neither Israel nor the PA has abrogated the Accords. Oslo II�s partition of the West Bank into Areas A (full Palestinian control), B (Palestinian civil control and joint Palestinian-Israeli security control), and C (full Israeli civil and security control, except over Palestinians) still orders daily life in the territories. Area C includes the settlements, their environs, and roadways.

Under Oslo II, �Israel has sole criminal jurisdiction over � offenses committed in the Territories by Israelis.� (Annex IV, art. 1(2)). Palestine does have criminal jurisdiction over Palestinians and non-Israelis in Areas A and B. (Israel has full criminal jurisdiction over Area C.) But crimes committed by Israelis in Palestinian territory are, under Oslo, solely Israel�s to investigate and try. To see why that might matter, we must go back to ICC basics.

The United States has always objected to the idea that the ICC could prosecute conduct by nationals of non-member states: treaties bind only their parties. The response to this objection is that the ICC is merely exercising jurisdiction that its member states could exercise on their own. It is axiomatic that states have jurisdiction over conduct on their own territory. If a U.S. national commits a crime in another state�s territory, the United States has no complaint if that state puts the perpetrator on trial in its own courts. In effect, states that join the ICC delegate that function to the Court.

Some U.S. commentators responded that criminal jurisdiction is not something a state can delegate as it chooses. But 122 states from every region of the world have joined the ICC, powerful evidence that customary international law no longer supports the U.S. argument, if it ever did.

The implication for ICC jurisdiction over Israeli crimes in Palestianian territory is clear. The ICC operates on criminal jurisdiction borrowed from its members; but under Oslo II, Palestine has no jurisdiction over Israelis to delegate. Whether this somewhat arcane difficulty is merely a technicality that the Court will ignore remains to be seen.

...

A second key point about the ICC is complementarity: the ICC can step in only if a state is unwilling or unable to investigate and prosecute cases on its own. Complementarity would offer Israel a large measure of protection from most war crimes charges. If Israel carries out its own investigations in good faith, it would be insulated from most liability � potentially, even if it never indicts anyone. And the Prosecutor would face a daunting uphill battle to try to prove bad faith. Israel has a sophisticated justice system, and its government recently adopted the Turkel Commission�s recommendation to beef up the independence and impartiality of military investigations of credible war crimes charges. To show bad faith (�unwillingness� in the language of the Statute), the Prosecutor would have to show that:

quote:
(a) The proceedings were or are being undertaken or the national decision was made for the purpose of shielding the person concerned from criminal responsibility �; [or]

(b) There has been an unjustified delay in the proceedings which in the circumstances is inconsistent with an intent to bring the person concerned to justice; [or]

(c) The proceedings were not or are not being conducted independently or impartially, and they were or are being conducted in a manner which, in the circumstances, is inconsistent with an intent to bring the person concerned to justice.

This would be especially hard if the Israeli government refused to share information from its own investigations, which it would almost certainly do. Of course, all the same considerations would apply to Palestine. It could invoke complementarity if it were willing and able to investigate and prosecute crimes by Palestinians. Obviously, this could lead to immense political friction if the PA investigates the Hamas leadership for rocket attacks against Israel. Under those circumstances, if Hamas stonewalls the investigation, the ICC might find that Palestine is unable to fulfill its responsibilities, in much the same way that it found Libya unable to prosecute Saif Gaddafi.

...

What are the Territorial Boundaries of Palestine?

But a vexed question would come up in a potential war crimes charge based on settlements: what are the territorial boundaries of Palestine?

This may seem like an easy question: the General Assembly and the ICJ both agree that it is the Green Line, that is, the pre-1967 border established by the armistice agreement in 1948.

In fact, it is not an easy question, because the international legal instruments are more equivocal than that. All were drafted with future peace talks in mind, and all acknowledge that the boundaries might change through land swaps. The Armistice Declaration (Security Council Resolution 62) specifies that the Green Line should not be �interpreted as prejudicing, in any sense, an ultimate political settlement between the Parties�; it adds that the Green Line was drawn �without prejudice to future territorial settlements or boundary lines.�

Interpreting this language, the ICJ explains that �[t]he Demarcation Line was subject to such rectification as might be agreed upon by the parties� (Legal Consequences of the Construction of a Wall in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, �72). Even the 2012 General Assembly resolution says that the Palestinian state and Israel will live side by side �on the basis of the pre-1967 borders� (emphasis added). This phrase was obviously wordsmithed so that it wouldn�t foreclose land swaps, which nearly everyone agrees are essential to any two-state solution. In other words, all these documents leave the exact path of the boundary line to be determined by politics, not by international lawyers.

Land swaps would place some of the settlements inside Israeli territory, with Israel ceding land to Palestine in return. And that means there is some ambiguity about whether Israeli settlement activity would be �in� Israel or �in� Palestine. In the latter case but not the former, it would fall under ICC jurisdiction.

Obviously, it would depend on where the Israeli settlement activity takes place � for example, whether it involves moving additional Israelis into a long-established settlement rather than aggressively building in new territory. In practice, it might not be hard for the Prosecutor to draw such distinctions. But there are cases � especially in contested East Jerusalem neighborhoods � where demarcating the border for jurisdictional purposes would drop the Prosecutor into one of the world�s most flammable disputes.

What Luban doesn't bring up about the border issue is that it is pretty much accepted that the ICC lacks the power to set the border between Israel and Palestine which will further hamper the ability to define what exactly is Palestinian territory, any attempt to declare any contentious territory as Palestinian could potentially fall afoul of the Monetary Gold principle established by the ICJ in Italy v France, United Kingdom and United States best summarized as "The Court will not adjudicate on a case where the Court would be required, as a necessary prerequisite, to adjudicate on the rights or responsibilities of a non-consenting and absent third State". The ICC focuses on individual responsibility rather than state responsibility so this is rarely an issue for them but deciding Israel's borders without consent is another matter altogether.

# ? Jan 7, 2015 19:56

Schenck v. U.S.: Sep 8, 2010

Absurd Alhazred posted:

As far as Israel is concerned, a bankrupt PA can't provide security cooperation or manage the populace. They'd have to run the majority-Palestinian areas themselves. At the very least that's more manpower and more logistics they're responsible for directly, and therefore more targets for insurgents.

The PA in particular understands that attacks on Israel and on Israeli settlers especially are invariably met by disproportionate collective punishment. Since the Israeli government is holding the Palestinian population at large hostage in this way, one of the most important jobs the PA National Security Forces are tasked with is detecting and foiling militant actions before they happen. This is fairly important because people who simply would not talk to the Israelis for any number of reasons* might be more willing to talk to Palestinian cops. There's also the danger of random disorganized attacks of opportunity or violent reactions to settler provocations, which the Israelis can't deal with nearly as well as the PA NSF because they're not on the ground in the community, they just roll through wrecking poo poo periodically. If the PA collapses these forces are gone as well, or maybe even joining the militants to apply their police training and equipment to Israeli targets for a change. Even if Israel undertakes the expense of policing the West Bank they're not going to do it nearly as well as an army of occupation.

* because they're afraid of what will happen to them if they're discovered informing to the Israelis; because they have relationships with militants and worry about what the Israelis will do to them if they inform on them; because they despise Israelis; etc.

# ? Jan 7, 2015 20:12

litany of gulps: Jun 11, 2001; Fun Shoe

computer parts posted:

It would probably be better if you were debating somewhere that wasn't paywalled half the time then.

Dolash posted:

The alternative is that they go unchallenged, but yeah, we're not really posting on Something Awful for the benefit of a secret audience of silent undecideds - I can agree with not engaging with madness for the sake of a more readable thread and a focus on actual current events (any election news, by the way?).

The same debates happen in other forums as well, and there are a huge number of SA readers that don't actively participate in posting.

Letting insane ideas go unchallenged is pretty much the best way to grant them legitimacy, as the insane person certainly isn't going to stop spouting them, and eventually they'll start reaching people in a way that is impossible if they are being shut down consistently and repeatedly by non-insane people. Engaging with the insane is a good way to draw out the truly unreasonable aspects of their ideologies, which are often hidden in more palatable arguments if they aren't explicitly challenged.

# ? Jan 8, 2015 00:57

Panzeh: Nov 27, 2006; "..The high ground"

litany of gulps posted:

The same debates happen in other forums as well, and there are a huge number of SA readers that don't actively participate in posting.

Letting insane ideas go unchallenged is pretty much the best way to grant them legitimacy, as the insane person certainly isn't going to stop spouting them, and eventually they'll start reaching people in a way that is impossible if they are being shut down consistently and repeatedly by non-insane people. Engaging with the insane is a good way to draw out the truly unreasonable aspects of their ideologies, which are often hidden in more palatable arguments if they aren't explicitly challenged.

This is how you draw out the idea that MIGF really isn't interested in realpolitik, but instead has an extremely moralistic outlook that amounts to "whatever Israel wants.. that's right"

# ? Jan 8, 2015 12:07

Volkerball: Oct 15, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

WHERE DOES IT ENDDDD :argh:

# ? Jan 9, 2015 02:28

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

Volkerball posted:

WHERE DOES IT ENDDDD

You may want to rehost that image.

Also what am I looking at here?

# ? Jan 9, 2015 02:33

Volkerball: Oct 15, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

Absurd Alhazred posted:

You may want to rehost that image.

Also what am I looking at here?

Wouldn't want to knock twitter out using up all their bandwidth. I assumed a picture of an Israeli model at a pageant or something wearing Palestinian attire?

# ? Jan 9, 2015 02:42

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

Volkerball posted:

Wouldn't want to knock twitter out using up all their bandwidth. I assumed a picture of an Israeli model at a pageant or something wearing Palestinian attire?

A lot of Israelis hail from Middle Eastern Countries, either personally or having parents or grandparent from there. Something about that say Morocco to me, but I would have to know more.

# ? Jan 9, 2015 02:45

Fizzil: Aug 24, 2005; There are five fucks at the edge of a cliff...

It sorta resembles traditional palestinian dress. Looks inspired by it more like.

# ? Jan 9, 2015 02:57

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

Fizzil posted:

It sorta resembles traditional palestinian dress. Looks inspired by it more like.

That's really very similar, yeah. Also, apparently my Moroccan guess is way off.

Going to the original twitter feed which took it out of Instagram, someone noted that it's in fact from Miss Earth 2011, and that the picture is of Huda Naccache, a Palestinian-Israeli. All the contestants in their attire can be found here.

# ? Jan 9, 2015 03:12

emanresu tnuocca: Sep 2, 2011; by Athanatos

Palestinian Jewish Israelis are an often ignored population, my great-great grandfather actually wrote about how Zionism expects the 'native Jews' to completely forsake their identity and turn their backs on their own Arabic heritage way back in 1920 or so.

The subject of how Zionist institutions worked to erase the Mizrahi and Sephardi jewish identities is always a somewhat hot topic, of course it's also worth noting that while 'Zionist culture' can be considered Ashkenazi in many ways there was also an active effort to discourage Ashkenazi jews from retaining whatever cultural heritage they brought with them from their home countries, speaking Yiddish for instance was frowned upon and considered an inappropriate thing to do in the Land of the Jews. But of course the degree of institutional discrimination Mizrahi and Sephardi Jews faced was always much greater.

Edit: as for the dress, whining about cultural appropriation when children are still getting killed seems pretty dumb to me.

# ? Jan 9, 2015 03:20

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

emanresu tnuocca posted:

Palestinian Jewish Israelis are an often ignored population, my great-great grandfather actually wrote about how Zionism expects the 'native Jews' to completely forsake their identity and turn their backs on their own Arabic heritage way back in 1920 or so.

The subject of how Zionist institutions worked to erase the Mizrahi and Sephardi jewish identities is always a somewhat hot topic, of course it's also worth noting that while 'Zionist culture' can be considered Ashkenazi in many ways there was also an active effort to discourage Ashkenazi jews from retaining whatever cultural heritage they brought with them from their home countries, speaking Yiddish for instance was frowned upon and considered an inappropriate thing to do in the Land of the Jews. But of course the degree of institutional discrimination Mizrahi and Sephardi Jews faced was always much greater.

That is the view that ended up prevailing. But Hashomer were known to actually try and emulate the Noble Bedouin Arab as much as possible. The leadership just couldn't shake off its Eurocentralist prejudices, though, and until the post-1948 mass immigration from Arab/Muslim countries, Jews from Europe and their descendants were in the majority. By then they were in all positions of power, where in many cases they and their descendents remain to this day.

ETA:

emanresu tnuocca posted:

Edit: as for the dress, whining about cultural appropriation when children are still getting killed seems pretty dumb to me.

I don't know, I have a Palestinian friend who was really pissed off that Israelis were passing off Kanafeh as Israeli. Then again he is a walking tumbler.txt... :shrug:

Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 03:28 on Jan 9, 2015

# ? Jan 9, 2015 03:26

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

emanresu tnuocca posted:

Palestinian Jewish Israelis are an often ignored population, my great-great grandfather actually wrote about how Zionism expects the 'native Jews' to completely forsake their identity and turn their backs on their own Arabic heritage way back in 1920 or so.

Any translation of that? That sounds fascinating! And historically interesting.

# ? Jan 9, 2015 03:27

emanresu tnuocca: Sep 2, 2011; by Athanatos

MonsieurChoc posted:

Any translation of that? That sounds fascinating! And historically interesting.

Actually there might be, my father learned about it from this professor guy who wrote a book about early Mizrahi writers who went largely unnoticed, I know that the book itself also exits in English but I don't really know whether the full article appears in it or not, the book itself doesn't exist digitally so I can't really find out right now but my father owns it and I can check it with him and if it exists scan it.

I have a scan of the original Hebrew publication but that doesn't really help anyone.

# ? Jan 9, 2015 03:31

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

emanresu tnuocca posted:

Actually there might be, my father learned about it from this professor guy who wrote a book about early Mizrahi writers who went largely unnoticed, I know that the book itself also exits in English but I don't really know whether the full article appears in it or not, the book itself doesn't exist digitally so I can't really find out right now but my father owns it and I can check it with him and if it exists scan it.

I have a scan of the original Hebrew publication but that doesn't really help anyone.

It helps me.... :wink:

Also, any idea of Hillel Cohen's 1929 book is ever going to get translated into English? It's really very good.

# ? Jan 9, 2015 03:35

emanresu tnuocca: Sep 2, 2011; by Athanatos

Absurd Alhazred posted:

It helps me....

Also, any idea of Hillel Cohen's 1929 book is ever going to get translated into English? It's really very good.

Never heard about that book? so no?

No idea where I can upload a PDF so i'll just mail it to you.

# ? Jan 9, 2015 03:45

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

emanresu tnuocca posted:

Never heard about that book? so no?

Really? That's quite unfortunate. There's a bit of a preview by the author here. It's about the circumstances surrounding the 1929 riots and massacres, and how the helped established the basic premises of the Zionist-Arab conflict to 1948 and beyond.

quote:

No idea where I can upload a PDF so i'll just mail it to you.

Got it. Thanks!

# ? Jan 9, 2015 03:53

Neo Rasa: Mar 8, 2007; Everyone should play DUKE games.

Absurd Alhazred posted:

I don't know, I have a Palestinian friend who was really pissed off that Israelis were passing off Kanafeh as Israeli. Then again he is a walking tumbler.txt...

Look up the hummus wars. Lebanon/etc. trying to make the largrst bowl of hummus to prove that they are the ones who invented it. At the same time, I can understand the frustration as Israel makes a specific effort to appropriate everything in the Middle East to say "Hey all good stuff in this barbaric wasteland is here because we invented it." It's a really major part of their propaganda and of planting the seed in western minds that Israelis are smart white people and non Israelis are subhuman fools who have no culture and are all terrorists.

# ? Jan 9, 2015 09:40

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

Neo Rasa posted:

Look up the hummus wars. Lebanon/etc. trying to make the largrst bowl of hummus to prove that they are the ones who invented it. At the same time, I can understand the frustration as Israel makes a specific effort to appropriate everything in the Middle East to say "Hey all good stuff in this barbaric wasteland is here because we invented it." It's a really major part of their propaganda and of planting the seed in western minds that Israelis are smart white people and non Israelis are subhuman fools who have no culture and are all terrorists.

That doesn't work even in Jewish Israel, where there's been a decades long resurgence of people embracing their originating cultures, some of them Middle Eastern (there are yearly Yemenite and Moroccan festivals, etc).

Speaking of uncultured terrorists, seems like the ICC is going to be opening an investigation into Protective Edge soonish! Surely this can only add excitement to an already thrilling election season.

# ? Jan 9, 2015 09:53

emanresu tnuocca: Sep 2, 2011; by Athanatos

As Netanyahu is trying to score PR points using the massacre in Paris it's worth noting that the jewish democracy in the middle east has a pretty shoddy track record when it comes to respecting the freedom of speech of Palestinian dissenters, even caricaturists:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naji_al-Ali posted:

Sawan later confessed that he worked for both the PLO and the Israeli intelligence agency Mossad.[13] A second suspect arrested by Scotland Yard also said he was a double agent.[14] It was later revealed that Mossad had two double agents working in London-based PLO hit teams and had advance knowledge of the killing.[14] By refusing to pass on the relevant information to their British counterparts, Mossad earned the displeasure of Britain, which retaliated by expelling three Israeli diplomats, one of whom was the embassy attache identified as the handler for the two agents.[14] A furious Margaret Thatcher, then prime minister, closed Mossad�s London base in Palace Green, Kensington.[15][16]

# ? Jan 9, 2015 13:15

Xander77: Apr 6, 2009; Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.

emanresu tnuocca posted:

As Netanyahu is trying to score PR points using the massacre in Paris it's worth noting that the jewish democracy in the middle east has a pretty shoddy track record when it comes to respecting the freedom of speech of Palestinian dissenters, even caricaturists:

quote:

The Israelis knew the Palestinian satirical cartoonist Nagy el-Ali el-Adami was to be assassinated in London in 1987 by his countrymen. The British were not told because Israel did not want to expose its double agents in the PLO's London-based cells.

How awful of them. (_{You're a very very stupid person})

# ? Jan 9, 2015 15:09

emanresu tnuocca: Sep 2, 2011; by Athanatos

'double agents', yes?

# ? Jan 9, 2015 15:12

emanresu tnuocca: Sep 2, 2011; by Athanatos

quote:

Ten months after Naji al-Ali was shot, Scotland Yard arrested a Palestinian student who turned out to be a Mossad agent. Under interrogation, the Jerusalem-born man, Ismail Suwan, said that his superiors in Tel Aviv had been briefed well in advance of the plot to kill the cartoonist.

Yes sure sounds like the Mossad were merely guilty of not passing information about a plot perpetrated by a cell they were partially running. Thanks for the valuable insight Mr. "I'm only asking questions I also hate settlers as much as I hate arabs", as always your contributions are invaluable.

# ? Jan 9, 2015 15:26

Xander77: Apr 6, 2009; Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.

emanresu tnuocca posted:

Yes sure sounds like the Mossad were merely guilty of not passing information about a plot perpetrated by a cell they were partially running.

That is correct

Hence the bits about the cartoonists family holding Arafat accountable for his death or the part where no one (outside Arab media) actually claims that the hit was orchestrated by the Mossad.

quote:

Thanks for the valuable insight Mr. "I'm only asking questions I also hate settlers as much as I hate arabs", as always your contributions are invaluable.

Care to source either part of that paraphrase, buddy?

...

If you weren't such a giant blubbering moron, your

emanresu tnuocca posted:

As Netanyahu is trying to score PR points using the massacre in Paris it's worth noting that the jewish democracy in the middle east has a pretty shoddy track record when it comes to respecting the freedom of speech of Palestinian dissenters, even caricaturists:

quote would have included some information such as the fact that Israel doesn't have a proper law that guarantees free speech, and Arab newspapers can be (and are) shut down on a whim. But that would require some actual thought instead of retarded conspiracy theories.

# ? Jan 9, 2015 15:39

emanresu tnuocca: Sep 2, 2011; by Athanatos

Israel has tons of free speech violations, such as draconian military censorship laws, unfortunately I'm not a wikipedia article and I am not obligated to provide a comprehensive review of a topic whenever I bring it up.

Given that the only people apprehended and interrogated during that investigation were PLO-Mossad double agents I think it's incredibly naive to assume that Mossad merely had 'foreknowledge', but sure conspiracy theories etc.

# ? Jan 9, 2015 15:47

kustomkarkommando: Oct 22, 2012

Absurd Alhazred posted:

Speaking of uncultured terrorists, seems like the ICC is going to be opening an investigation into Protective Edge soonish! Surely this can only add excitement to an already thrilling election season.

This is interesting as it seems to hint that the Office of the Prosecutor is going to proceed proprio motu, under it's own motion, rather than being triggered by a State Referral (which Palestine hasn't actually lodged yet). Palestine making a 12(3) declaration allows the OTP to do this but a lot of people were doubtful that they would do this, the last case opened using proprio motu was the Kenyan investigation which din't exactly end well. There has been a lot of speculation about how the ICC will proceed with the Palestine situation, some people have argued they will go cautiously and not make an rash moves due to the sensitivity of the situation- others have argued they will seize the opportunity with both hands due to it's relevance (and the fact it isn't in Africa). A proprio motu move would be rather bold and will probably be condemned as political motivated by some people critical of the powers given to the OTP.

There is the question whether or not this is standard policy. The ICCs notes on the Ukrainian investigation say that "upon receipt of a referral or a declaration made by a state pursuant to Article 12(3) of the Rome Statute, the Office of the Prosecutor, as a matter of policy, opens a preliminary examination of the situation at hand", something that isn't a written policy as indicated by the ICCs own policy documents which states that "article 12(3) is a jurisdictional provision, not a trigger mechanism. As such, declarations of the sort should not be equated with referals".

One last thing as well, a proprio motu changes the pre-trial phase of the investigation. With a State referral the OTP has power to open an investigation if they believe the conditions of the Rome Statute are met, in the case of a proprio motu motion the case must be referred to the Pre-Trial Chamber to be assessed by a panel of judges - only after it passes muster here can a formal investigation be opened.

# ? Jan 9, 2015 15:48

team overhead smash: Sep 2, 2006; Team-Forest-Tree-Dog:
Smashing your way into our hearts one skylight at a time

Xander77 posted:

But that would require some actual thought instead of retarded conspiracy theories.

This is a conversation about a literal conspiracy that involved espionage and intelligence agencies and poo poo.

Trying to dismiss someone as a conspiracy theorist in a conversation about an actual factual conspiracy that even you agree happened (while disagreeing on the specifics) is moronic.

# ? Jan 9, 2015 17:01

Cat Mattress: Jul 14, 2012; by Cyrano4747

After the attack on Charlie Hebdo, one of the main channels of French TV broadcast this documentary, which you might be able to watch from the site, though it's probably region-restricted.

Anyway, one of the cartoonists is a Palestinian, and he talks about Israeli censorship. Even has an example: a picture he draw of curfew in Palestine, with Jewish settlers wandering the streets freely while Palestinians stuck in their homes look out their windows. No messages, no caption, no violence, nothing: just a street with some people walking in it and some others looking out a window. The IDF prevented it from being published.

# ? Jan 9, 2015 17:23

emanresu tnuocca: Sep 2, 2011; by Athanatos

A new day, a new opportunity for me to betray my race and put a dagger in the back of my nation by posting words on a comedy forum:

quote:

Israel and the Occupied Territory of the State of Palestine: in the context of the operation �Protective Edge� launched by the Israeli forces on 8 July 2014 on the Gaza Strip, 15 journalists have been killed (some of them being purposely targeted), many others have been injured because of the shelling of their homes, 16 Palestinian journalists have lost their homes as a result of Israeli bombing and shelling, 8 media outlets have been destroyed, in addition the Israeli army deliberately disturbed the broadcasting of 7 radio and TV stations and websites (l), many journalists have been arrested by the Israeli forces.

(1) Al-Aqsa radio, Sawt Al-Quds radio, Sawat Al-Sha�eb, Filistin Il-Yom TV and website, Al-Ra�ei website

- See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/01/ignoring-targeting-journalists#sthash.aH7p0MBP.dpuf

# ? Jan 10, 2015 12:27

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

A campaign poster for our American friends:

"= LGBTs demanding equality"

"MK Ayelet Shaked (left): 'Whoever thinks homosexuals and lesbians have a right to marry in this country should not vote for me or Bennett (right)'"

# ? Jan 11, 2015 20:35

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

Sorry for double-posting, but I wanted to cross-post the following from the Charlie Hebdo thread:

Absurd Alhazred posted:

Among the images in a tribute by Haaretz cartoonists to Charlie Hebdo, there was the following one, by Noa Olkhovsky:

Top Hebrew line says: "10 journalists killed in an attack on Charlie Hebdo in Paris"

Bottom: "About 13 journalists were killed this summer in the attack on Gaza"

Ronen Shoval, former crypto-fascist and current not-so-crypto fascist running for racist Israeli party Jewish Home posted this on his Facebook, calling for it to be investigated under a little used Israeli law against the publication of "defeatist propaganda". After several hundred of his followers called for the cartoonist to be killed "like they did to Charlie Hebdo", he removed the post from his wall.

# ? Jan 11, 2015 23:50

suck my woke dick: Oct 10, 2012; I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!

Put this cum-loving slave on ignore immediately!

Absurd Alhazred posted:

farmers in funny traditional wear with a pitchfork

Since when does Israel have an Amish population to appeal to?

# ? Jan 12, 2015 00:35

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

blowfish posted:

Since when does Israel have an Amish population to appeal to?

I think it's more an appropriation of an American symbol of backwardness. Because Israeli leftist culture is terribly Americanized. Much like a lot of Israeli culture. I mean, this is American Gothic, right?

# ? Jan 12, 2015 00:38

Volkerball: Oct 15, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

Absurd Alhazred posted:

A campaign poster for our American friends:

"= LGBTs demanding equality"

"MK Ayelet Shaked (left): 'Whoever thinks homosexuals and lesbians have a right to marry in this country should not vote for me or Bennett (right)'"

That woman scares the hell out of me. One day she's going to be Prime Minister, and she'll commit such terrible human rights abuses that even the US has to stop and say "Ayelet, this whole evil laughing and diabolically talking about how soon you will rule the world in press conferences about Operation Face to Bloodshed is really putting us in a bind." And she will slap the President in the face on national television and set him on fire with her eyes. Then she'll look into the camera and anyone who dares to look into her eyes will spontaneously combust. The rest will put their heads down and accept their new Jewish overlord. Then we will all be Gaza. :smith:

# ? Jan 12, 2015 04:37

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

Volkerball posted:

That woman scares the hell out of me. One day she's going to be Prime Minister, and she'll commit such terrible human rights abuses that even the US has to stop and say "Ayelet, this whole evil laughing and diabolically talking about how soon you will rule the world in press conferences about Operation Face to Bloodshed is really putting us in a bind." And she will slap the President in the face on national television and set him on fire with her eyes. Then she'll look into the camera and anyone who dares to look into her eyes will spontaneously combust. The rest will put their heads down and accept their new Jewish overlord. Then we will all be Gaza.

Just to spook you a little more, this is her with that very same Ronen Shoval, in her Knesset office:

The newspaper on her desk is Haaretz.

ETA: I didn't even notice this, but this is the paper she has printed out, from Commentary magazine: Crimea, International Law, and the West Bank.

I quote: "The legal principle that explains why Crimea was and remains under Ukraine�s sovereignty also validates Israel�s presence in the West Bank."

Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 04:51 on Jan 12, 2015

# ? Jan 12, 2015 04:48

emanresu tnuocca: Sep 2, 2011; by Athanatos

Is this a response to Bibi's comments that French Jews should leave france and migrate to Israel for their safety?
http://www.reuters.com/video/2015/01/11/netanyahu-visits-paris-synagogue-crowd-b?videoId=361735135

Doesn't look like that's what he expected.

emanresu tnuocca fucked around with this message at 12:57 on Jan 12, 2015

# ? Jan 12, 2015 12:25

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# ? Jun 5, 2024 12:22

suck my woke dick: Oct 10, 2012; I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!

Put this cum-loving slave on ignore immediately!

Absurd Alhazred posted:

I quote: "The legal principle that explains why Crimea was and remains under Ukraine�s sovereignty also validates Israel�s presence in the West Bank."

The land of ~~Crimea~~ ~~Palestine~~ Israel belonged to the people of Israel since biblical times before it got taken over by the ~~Russian~~ muslim invader. What is so hard to understand about that? :v:

emanresu tnuocca posted:

Is this a response to Bibi's comments that French Jews should leave french and migrate to Israel for their safety?
http://www.reuters.com/video/2015/01/11/netanyahu-visits-paris-synagogue-crowd-b?videoId=361735135

Doesn't look like that's what he expected.

This warms my cold, dead heart.

# ? Jan 12, 2015 12:52

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > I/P: post-semitism in the desert of the deal

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