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Baudolino posted:What does the US risk by having the PA going bankrupt? I just don`t see how Fatah could retalitate against the US and not destroy themselves in the process. As far as Israel is concerned, a bankrupt PA can't provide security cooperation or manage the populace. They'd have to run the majority-Palestinian areas themselves. At the very least that's more manpower and more logistics they're responsible for directly, and therefore more targets for insurgents.
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# ? Jan 7, 2015 18:14 |
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# ? Jun 6, 2024 08:15 |
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Baudolino posted:What does the US risk by having the PA going bankrupt? I just don`t see how Fatah could retalitate against the US and not destroy themselves in the process. To be honest I think an Ak47 would be a better weapon than an ICC referal. To my mind the ideal response would be midway between Hamas and Fatah; a military resistance that did not commit war crimes along with a separate political wing to use those military actions to push for political concessions. I can't see diplomatic action getting anywhere. The way I see it, rather than providing a genuine legal and diplomatic resistance Fatah is often really quite collaborationist (ICC referral is an exception), while Hamas is hamstrung both because of the unacceptability of its actions (not violent resistance, but rather violent resistance which disproportionately targets civilians, etc) and their regressiveness in other human rights areas that matter to the West like homosexuality.
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# ? Jan 7, 2015 18:38 |
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Baudolino posted:What does the US risk by having the PA going bankrupt? I just don`t see how Fatah could retalitate against the US and not destroy themselves in the process. Every single alternative to the PA is worse for basically everyone involved. Even the right-wing has limits to how hard they can push - killing the PA will almost certainly resurrect Hamas and unleash armed groups in the settler-filled West Bank, which will be very difficult to defend, and there's been some question about how prepared the IDF really is for a prolonged ground conflict. A recent government report suggests that training quality has declined since 2006, equipment maintenance is shoddy, and all-around preparedness for war is very poor. Mandy Thompson posted:Why would Israel oppose Palestinian membership in the ICC unless they though they couldn't win. If Israel's cause is just, they should welcome their day in court. Seems like Israel knows what they are doing is wrong. When Israel declined to ratify the Rome Treaty, they claimed that the ICC would be abused as a political weapon against them, and that Arab countries were already pressuring it into "inventing" crimes designed to criminalize things that Israel was doing that they considered to be perfectly legal (like settlements). There's no way an excuse that versatile ("Yeah, of course they found us guilty - of a fake crime cooked up by anti-semites specifically to target us, and decided on by a stacked court!") isn't going to be brought back in a few months when the ICC stuff starts moving forward. http://mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFA-Archive/2002/Pages/Israel%20and%20the%20International%20Criminal%20Court.aspx quote:Areas of concern
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# ? Jan 7, 2015 18:54 |
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Re team overhead smash's question about potential pitfalls Palestine could face at the ICC, here's a chunk from an article by Dave LubanPalestine and the ICC — Some Legal Questions posted:The Relevance of Oslo? What Luban doesn't bring up about the border issue is that it is pretty much accepted that the ICC lacks the power to set the border between Israel and Palestine which will further hamper the ability to define what exactly is Palestinian territory, any attempt to declare any contentious territory as Palestinian could potentially fall afoul of the Monetary Gold principle established by the ICJ in Italy v France, United Kingdom and United States best summarized as "The Court will not adjudicate on a case where the Court would be required, as a necessary prerequisite, to adjudicate on the rights or responsibilities of a non-consenting and absent third State". The ICC focuses on individual responsibility rather than state responsibility so this is rarely an issue for them but deciding Israel's borders without consent is another matter altogether.
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# ? Jan 7, 2015 19:56 |
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Absurd Alhazred posted:As far as Israel is concerned, a bankrupt PA can't provide security cooperation or manage the populace. They'd have to run the majority-Palestinian areas themselves. At the very least that's more manpower and more logistics they're responsible for directly, and therefore more targets for insurgents. The PA in particular understands that attacks on Israel and on Israeli settlers especially are invariably met by disproportionate collective punishment. Since the Israeli government is holding the Palestinian population at large hostage in this way, one of the most important jobs the PA National Security Forces are tasked with is detecting and foiling militant actions before they happen. This is fairly important because people who simply would not talk to the Israelis for any number of reasons* might be more willing to talk to Palestinian cops. There's also the danger of random disorganized attacks of opportunity or violent reactions to settler provocations, which the Israelis can't deal with nearly as well as the PA NSF because they're not on the ground in the community, they just roll through wrecking poo poo periodically. If the PA collapses these forces are gone as well, or maybe even joining the militants to apply their police training and equipment to Israeli targets for a change. Even if Israel undertakes the expense of policing the West Bank they're not going to do it nearly as well as an army of occupation. * because they're afraid of what will happen to them if they're discovered informing to the Israelis; because they have relationships with militants and worry about what the Israelis will do to them if they inform on them; because they despise Israelis; etc.
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# ? Jan 7, 2015 20:12 |
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computer parts posted:It would probably be better if you were debating somewhere that wasn't paywalled half the time then. Dolash posted:The alternative is that they go unchallenged, but yeah, we're not really posting on Something Awful for the benefit of a secret audience of silent undecideds - I can agree with not engaging with madness for the sake of a more readable thread and a focus on actual current events (any election news, by the way?). The same debates happen in other forums as well, and there are a huge number of SA readers that don't actively participate in posting. Letting insane ideas go unchallenged is pretty much the best way to grant them legitimacy, as the insane person certainly isn't going to stop spouting them, and eventually they'll start reaching people in a way that is impossible if they are being shut down consistently and repeatedly by non-insane people. Engaging with the insane is a good way to draw out the truly unreasonable aspects of their ideologies, which are often hidden in more palatable arguments if they aren't explicitly challenged.
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# ? Jan 8, 2015 00:57 |
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litany of gulps posted:The same debates happen in other forums as well, and there are a huge number of SA readers that don't actively participate in posting. This is how you draw out the idea that MIGF really isn't interested in realpolitik, but instead has an extremely moralistic outlook that amounts to "whatever Israel wants.. that's right"
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# ? Jan 8, 2015 12:07 |
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WHERE DOES IT ENDDDD
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# ? Jan 9, 2015 02:28 |
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Volkerball posted:WHERE DOES IT ENDDDD You may want to rehost that image. Also what am I looking at here?
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# ? Jan 9, 2015 02:33 |
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Absurd Alhazred posted:You may want to rehost that image. Wouldn't want to knock twitter out using up all their bandwidth. I assumed a picture of an Israeli model at a pageant or something wearing Palestinian attire?
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# ? Jan 9, 2015 02:42 |
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Volkerball posted:Wouldn't want to knock twitter out using up all their bandwidth. I assumed a picture of an Israeli model at a pageant or something wearing Palestinian attire? A lot of Israelis hail from Middle Eastern Countries, either personally or having parents or grandparent from there. Something about that say Morocco to me, but I would have to know more.
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# ? Jan 9, 2015 02:45 |
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It sorta resembles traditional palestinian dress. Looks inspired by it more like.
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# ? Jan 9, 2015 02:57 |
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Fizzil posted:It sorta resembles traditional palestinian dress. Looks inspired by it more like. That's really very similar, yeah. Also, apparently my Moroccan guess is way off. Going to the original twitter feed which took it out of Instagram, someone noted that it's in fact from Miss Earth 2011, and that the picture is of Huda Naccache, a Palestinian-Israeli. All the contestants in their attire can be found here.
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# ? Jan 9, 2015 03:12 |
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Palestinian Jewish Israelis are an often ignored population, my great-great grandfather actually wrote about how Zionism expects the 'native Jews' to completely forsake their identity and turn their backs on their own Arabic heritage way back in 1920 or so. The subject of how Zionist institutions worked to erase the Mizrahi and Sephardi jewish identities is always a somewhat hot topic, of course it's also worth noting that while 'Zionist culture' can be considered Ashkenazi in many ways there was also an active effort to discourage Ashkenazi jews from retaining whatever cultural heritage they brought with them from their home countries, speaking Yiddish for instance was frowned upon and considered an inappropriate thing to do in the Land of the Jews. But of course the degree of institutional discrimination Mizrahi and Sephardi Jews faced was always much greater. Edit: as for the dress, whining about cultural appropriation when children are still getting killed seems pretty dumb to me.
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# ? Jan 9, 2015 03:20 |
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Palestinian Jewish Israelis are an often ignored population, my great-great grandfather actually wrote about how Zionism expects the 'native Jews' to completely forsake their identity and turn their backs on their own Arabic heritage way back in 1920 or so. That is the view that ended up prevailing. But Hashomer were known to actually try and emulate the Noble Bedouin Arab as much as possible. The leadership just couldn't shake off its Eurocentralist prejudices, though, and until the post-1948 mass immigration from Arab/Muslim countries, Jews from Europe and their descendants were in the majority. By then they were in all positions of power, where in many cases they and their descendents remain to this day. ETA: emanresu tnuocca posted:Edit: as for the dress, whining about cultural appropriation when children are still getting killed seems pretty dumb to me. I don't know, I have a Palestinian friend who was really pissed off that Israelis were passing off Kanafeh as Israeli. Then again he is a walking tumbler.txt... Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 03:28 on Jan 9, 2015 |
# ? Jan 9, 2015 03:26 |
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Palestinian Jewish Israelis are an often ignored population, my great-great grandfather actually wrote about how Zionism expects the 'native Jews' to completely forsake their identity and turn their backs on their own Arabic heritage way back in 1920 or so. Any translation of that? That sounds fascinating! And historically interesting.
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# ? Jan 9, 2015 03:27 |
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MonsieurChoc posted:Any translation of that? That sounds fascinating! And historically interesting. Actually there might be, my father learned about it from this professor guy who wrote a book about early Mizrahi writers who went largely unnoticed, I know that the book itself also exits in English but I don't really know whether the full article appears in it or not, the book itself doesn't exist digitally so I can't really find out right now but my father owns it and I can check it with him and if it exists scan it. I have a scan of the original Hebrew publication but that doesn't really help anyone.
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# ? Jan 9, 2015 03:31 |
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Actually there might be, my father learned about it from this professor guy who wrote a book about early Mizrahi writers who went largely unnoticed, I know that the book itself also exits in English but I don't really know whether the full article appears in it or not, the book itself doesn't exist digitally so I can't really find out right now but my father owns it and I can check it with him and if it exists scan it. It helps me.... Also, any idea of Hillel Cohen's 1929 book is ever going to get translated into English? It's really very good.
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# ? Jan 9, 2015 03:35 |
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Absurd Alhazred posted:It helps me.... Never heard about that book? so no? No idea where I can upload a PDF so i'll just mail it to you.
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# ? Jan 9, 2015 03:45 |
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Never heard about that book? so no? Really? That's quite unfortunate. There's a bit of a preview by the author here. It's about the circumstances surrounding the 1929 riots and massacres, and how the helped established the basic premises of the Zionist-Arab conflict to 1948 and beyond. quote:No idea where I can upload a PDF so i'll just mail it to you. Got it. Thanks!
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# ? Jan 9, 2015 03:53 |
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Absurd Alhazred posted:
Look up the hummus wars. Lebanon/etc. trying to make the largrst bowl of hummus to prove that they are the ones who invented it. At the same time, I can understand the frustration as Israel makes a specific effort to appropriate everything in the Middle East to say "Hey all good stuff in this barbaric wasteland is here because we invented it." It's a really major part of their propaganda and of planting the seed in western minds that Israelis are smart white people and non Israelis are subhuman fools who have no culture and are all terrorists.
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# ? Jan 9, 2015 09:40 |
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Neo Rasa posted:Look up the hummus wars. Lebanon/etc. trying to make the largrst bowl of hummus to prove that they are the ones who invented it. At the same time, I can understand the frustration as Israel makes a specific effort to appropriate everything in the Middle East to say "Hey all good stuff in this barbaric wasteland is here because we invented it." It's a really major part of their propaganda and of planting the seed in western minds that Israelis are smart white people and non Israelis are subhuman fools who have no culture and are all terrorists. That doesn't work even in Jewish Israel, where there's been a decades long resurgence of people embracing their originating cultures, some of them Middle Eastern (there are yearly Yemenite and Moroccan festivals, etc). Speaking of uncultured terrorists, seems like the ICC is going to be opening an investigation into Protective Edge soonish! Surely this can only add excitement to an already thrilling election season.
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# ? Jan 9, 2015 09:53 |
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As Netanyahu is trying to score PR points using the massacre in Paris it's worth noting that the jewish democracy in the middle east has a pretty shoddy track record when it comes to respecting the freedom of speech of Palestinian dissenters, even caricaturists:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naji_al-Ali posted:Sawan later confessed that he worked for both the PLO and the Israeli intelligence agency Mossad.[13] A second suspect arrested by Scotland Yard also said he was a double agent.[14] It was later revealed that Mossad had two double agents working in London-based PLO hit teams and had advance knowledge of the killing.[14] By refusing to pass on the relevant information to their British counterparts, Mossad earned the displeasure of Britain, which retaliated by expelling three Israeli diplomats, one of whom was the embassy attache identified as the handler for the two agents.[14] A furious Margaret Thatcher, then prime minister, closed Mossad’s London base in Palace Green, Kensington.[15][16]
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# ? Jan 9, 2015 13:15 |
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emanresu tnuocca posted:As Netanyahu is trying to score PR points using the massacre in Paris it's worth noting that the jewish democracy in the middle east has a pretty shoddy track record when it comes to respecting the freedom of speech of Palestinian dissenters, even caricaturists: quote:The Israelis knew the Palestinian satirical cartoonist Nagy el-Ali el-Adami was to be assassinated in London in 1987 by his countrymen. The British were not told because Israel did not want to expose its double agents in the PLO's London-based cells.
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# ? Jan 9, 2015 15:09 |
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'double agents', yes?
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# ? Jan 9, 2015 15:12 |
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quote:Ten months after Naji al-Ali was shot, Scotland Yard arrested a Palestinian student who turned out to be a Mossad agent. Under interrogation, the Jerusalem-born man, Ismail Suwan, said that his superiors in Tel Aviv had been briefed well in advance of the plot to kill the cartoonist. Yes sure sounds like the Mossad were merely guilty of not passing information about a plot perpetrated by a cell they were partially running. Thanks for the valuable insight Mr. "I'm only asking questions I also hate settlers as much as I hate arabs", as always your contributions are invaluable.
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# ? Jan 9, 2015 15:26 |
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Yes sure sounds like the Mossad were merely guilty of not passing information about a plot perpetrated by a cell they were partially running. Hence the bits about the cartoonists family holding Arafat accountable for his death or the part where no one (outside Arab media) actually claims that the hit was orchestrated by the Mossad. quote:Thanks for the valuable insight Mr. "I'm only asking questions I also hate settlers as much as I hate arabs", as always your contributions are invaluable. ... If you weren't such a giant blubbering moron, your emanresu tnuocca posted:As Netanyahu is trying to score PR points using the massacre in Paris it's worth noting that the jewish democracy in the middle east has a pretty shoddy track record when it comes to respecting the freedom of speech of Palestinian dissenters, even caricaturists:
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# ? Jan 9, 2015 15:39 |
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Israel has tons of free speech violations, such as draconian military censorship laws, unfortunately I'm not a wikipedia article and I am not obligated to provide a comprehensive review of a topic whenever I bring it up. Given that the only people apprehended and interrogated during that investigation were PLO-Mossad double agents I think it's incredibly naive to assume that Mossad merely had 'foreknowledge', but sure conspiracy theories etc.
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# ? Jan 9, 2015 15:47 |
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Speaking of uncultured terrorists, seems like the ICC is going to be opening an investigation into Protective Edge soonish! Surely this can only add excitement to an already thrilling election season. This is interesting as it seems to hint that the Office of the Prosecutor is going to proceed proprio motu, under it's own motion, rather than being triggered by a State Referral (which Palestine hasn't actually lodged yet). Palestine making a 12(3) declaration allows the OTP to do this but a lot of people were doubtful that they would do this, the last case opened using proprio motu was the Kenyan investigation which din't exactly end well. There has been a lot of speculation about how the ICC will proceed with the Palestine situation, some people have argued they will go cautiously and not make an rash moves due to the sensitivity of the situation- others have argued they will seize the opportunity with both hands due to it's relevance (and the fact it isn't in Africa). A proprio motu move would be rather bold and will probably be condemned as political motivated by some people critical of the powers given to the OTP. There is the question whether or not this is standard policy. The ICCs notes on the Ukrainian investigation say that "upon receipt of a referral or a declaration made by a state pursuant to Article 12(3) of the Rome Statute, the Office of the Prosecutor, as a matter of policy, opens a preliminary examination of the situation at hand", something that isn't a written policy as indicated by the ICCs own policy documents which states that "article 12(3) is a jurisdictional provision, not a trigger mechanism. As such, declarations of the sort should not be equated with referals". One last thing as well, a proprio motu changes the pre-trial phase of the investigation. With a State referral the OTP has power to open an investigation if they believe the conditions of the Rome Statute are met, in the case of a proprio motu motion the case must be referred to the Pre-Trial Chamber to be assessed by a panel of judges - only after it passes muster here can a formal investigation be opened.
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# ? Jan 9, 2015 15:48 |
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Xander77 posted:But that would require some actual thought instead of retarded conspiracy theories. This is a conversation about a literal conspiracy that involved espionage and intelligence agencies and poo poo. Trying to dismiss someone as a conspiracy theorist in a conversation about an actual factual conspiracy that even you agree happened (while disagreeing on the specifics) is moronic.
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# ? Jan 9, 2015 17:01 |
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After the attack on Charlie Hebdo, one of the main channels of French TV broadcast this documentary, which you might be able to watch from the site, though it's probably region-restricted. Anyway, one of the cartoonists is a Palestinian, and he talks about Israeli censorship. Even has an example: a picture he draw of curfew in Palestine, with Jewish settlers wandering the streets freely while Palestinians stuck in their homes look out their windows. No messages, no caption, no violence, nothing: just a street with some people walking in it and some others looking out a window. The IDF prevented it from being published.
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# ? Jan 9, 2015 17:23 |
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A new day, a new opportunity for me to betray my race and put a dagger in the back of my nation by posting words on a comedy forum: quote:Israel and the Occupied Territory of the State of Palestine: in the context of the operation “Protective Edge” launched by the Israeli forces on 8 July 2014 on the Gaza Strip, 15 journalists have been killed (some of them being purposely targeted), many others have been injured because of the shelling of their homes, 16 Palestinian journalists have lost their homes as a result of Israeli bombing and shelling, 8 media outlets have been destroyed, in addition the Israeli army deliberately disturbed the broadcasting of 7 radio and TV stations and websites (l), many journalists have been arrested by the Israeli forces.
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# ? Jan 10, 2015 12:27 |
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A campaign poster for our American friends: "= LGBTs demanding equality" "MK Ayelet Shaked (left): 'Whoever thinks homosexuals and lesbians have a right to marry in this country should not vote for me or Bennett (right)'"
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# ? Jan 11, 2015 20:35 |
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Sorry for double-posting, but I wanted to cross-post the following from the Charlie Hebdo thread:Absurd Alhazred posted:Among the images in a tribute by Haaretz cartoonists to Charlie Hebdo, there was the following one, by Noa Olkhovsky:
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# ? Jan 11, 2015 23:50 |
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Absurd Alhazred posted:farmers in funny traditional wear with a pitchfork Since when does Israel have an Amish population to appeal to?
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# ? Jan 12, 2015 00:35 |
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blowfish posted:Since when does Israel have an Amish population to appeal to? I think it's more an appropriation of an American symbol of backwardness. Because Israeli leftist culture is terribly Americanized. Much like a lot of Israeli culture. I mean, this is American Gothic, right?
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# ? Jan 12, 2015 00:38 |
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Absurd Alhazred posted:A campaign poster for our American friends: That woman scares the hell out of me. One day she's going to be Prime Minister, and she'll commit such terrible human rights abuses that even the US has to stop and say "Ayelet, this whole evil laughing and diabolically talking about how soon you will rule the world in press conferences about Operation Face to Bloodshed is really putting us in a bind." And she will slap the President in the face on national television and set him on fire with her eyes. Then she'll look into the camera and anyone who dares to look into her eyes will spontaneously combust. The rest will put their heads down and accept their new Jewish overlord. Then we will all be Gaza.
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# ? Jan 12, 2015 04:37 |
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Volkerball posted:That woman scares the hell out of me. One day she's going to be Prime Minister, and she'll commit such terrible human rights abuses that even the US has to stop and say "Ayelet, this whole evil laughing and diabolically talking about how soon you will rule the world in press conferences about Operation Face to Bloodshed is really putting us in a bind." And she will slap the President in the face on national television and set him on fire with her eyes. Then she'll look into the camera and anyone who dares to look into her eyes will spontaneously combust. The rest will put their heads down and accept their new Jewish overlord. Then we will all be Gaza. Just to spook you a little more, this is her with that very same Ronen Shoval, in her Knesset office: The newspaper on her desk is Haaretz. ETA: I didn't even notice this, but this is the paper she has printed out, from Commentary magazine: Crimea, International Law, and the West Bank. I quote: "The legal principle that explains why Crimea was and remains under Ukraine’s sovereignty also validates Israel’s presence in the West Bank." Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 04:51 on Jan 12, 2015 |
# ? Jan 12, 2015 04:48 |
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Is this a response to Bibi's comments that French Jews should leave france and migrate to Israel for their safety? http://www.reuters.com/video/2015/01/11/netanyahu-visits-paris-synagogue-crowd-b?videoId=361735135 Doesn't look like that's what he expected. emanresu tnuocca fucked around with this message at 12:57 on Jan 12, 2015 |
# ? Jan 12, 2015 12:25 |
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# ? Jun 6, 2024 08:15 |
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Absurd Alhazred posted:I quote: "The legal principle that explains why Crimea was and remains under Ukraine’s sovereignty also validates Israel’s presence in the West Bank." The land of emanresu tnuocca posted:Is this a response to Bibi's comments that French Jews should leave french and migrate to Israel for their safety? This warms my cold, dead heart.
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# ? Jan 12, 2015 12:52 |