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Durendal posted:There's something I have been pondering lately - why is it that no one has been able to improve upon Dominion? So many games have come and gone over the last six years yet not one has been able to improve upon its formula. Did Donald sell his soul or something? Or did he just some how make a game that is mechanically flawless? One of the biggest factors is that he playtested the everloving hell out of it. Most of the cards from every expansion already existed in some form before he got it published, and he played it a ton to work out a lot of the potential balance issues. Some cards are still too weak/strong, but for the most part every card has a kingdom where they're useful/kinda bad, and the sheer number of cards are enough to make most games pretty balanced with at least one or two good plans to win outside of Big Money. That, and the way lots of deckbuilders are set up kinda makes balance tough anyway (market row deckbuilders being the most obvious example).
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Jan 17, 2015 13:28
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It's not flawless - it has its issues, I don't think anyone's claimed otherwise. Alchemy in particular is pretty widely disliked as being a bit of a failed experiment. It just has far fewer issues than the clones. My suspicion as to why no-one's dethroned it though, is mostly that I don't think the copies have received anywhere near the level of design thought or the level of playtesting that went into Dominion. Dominion was years if not decades in development before it came out, and even now most of the cards being released have been in development since the earliest days (if you believe the interviews with DXV) and been playtested in various forms for ten years or so, and all the cards are still heavily internally playtested on Isotropic, which is still active, just no longer public, and only remains available to friends and family - hell, it was initially designed as a Dominion testing server. Contrast that with basically any game in the genre which Dominion began, and you wind up with games without that level of dedication and design time put into them. Not to mention that the vast majority of the competitors simply don't come anywhere close to having the sheer amount of content Dominion does. Refining the concept takes a LOT of work, because the concept took a LOT of work. I don't think there's a deckbuilder out there that;s put the amount of work in that DXV did. Except maybe Magic, and Magic is phenomenally successful, well designed, heavily playtested, and not really a deckbuilder, or Mage Knight which was heavily playtested and Vlaada is a ridiculously talented designer. thespaceinvader fucked around with this message at 13:37 on Jan 17, 2015 |
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Jan 17, 2015 13:34
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Durendal posted:There's something I have been pondering lately - why is it that no one has been able to improve upon Dominion? So many games have come and gone over the last six years yet not one has been able to improve upon its formula. Did Donald sell his soul or something? Or did he just some how make a game that is mechanically flawless? There's 4 really big contributors.
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Jan 17, 2015 13:36
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Durendal posted:There's something I have been pondering lately - why is it that no one has been able to improve upon Dominion? So many games have come and gone over the last six years yet not one has been able to improve upon its formula. Did Donald sell his soul or something? Or did he just some how make a game that is mechanically flawless? Mage Knight is better than Dominion 
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Jan 17, 2015 14:32
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Durendal posted:There's something I have been pondering lately - why is it that no one has been able to improve upon Dominion? So many games have come and gone over the last six years yet not one has been able to improve upon its formula. Did Donald sell his soul or something? Or did he just some how make a game that is mechanically flawless? I admit I haven't played all that many deckbuilders at this point, but I'm still waiting to see one that adds something to the game that actually adds something to the game. This is my biggest problem with Thunderstone: you get cards to beat monsters which is a means to get additional cards... or I could just buy cards in Dominion and cut out the middleman. At least with something like Shadowrift, it feels less like filling out paperwork: sure, you can get cool cards to do fun stuff, but if you don't kill monsters, you're going to lose. Don't get me wrong: Shadowrift is not really better than Thunderstone, but it is at least different from Dominion to make it play its own way, and doesn't feel like adding dull hurdles to an otherwise elegant game. I'd still rather play Dominion.
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Jan 17, 2015 16:44
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Jedit posted:That was a day one score and I've beaten it by a little since, but 1400 points still eludes me. Nice. As I said, I wasn't trying to be optimal and I'd already defeated the Sowers several times without all my heroes in play yet before I realized just how ridiculous it was going to get. But yeah... if you set it up just right and had the patience, you could probably do a lot better than 1400. Depends on what sets you're using, but the theoretical maximum with a cooperative opponent who allowed you to acquire the entire deck before setting off the combo would probably be in the millions at least. Practical maximum against a resisting opponent is probably still in excess of 2000 if you're lucky enough.
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Jan 17, 2015 16:56
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The natural evolution of the deck-builder is for someone to build a deck-destroyer. Now that I've said that, I just had a great idea for how that would work... it's been a while since I've worked on a new design, gonna have to give this one some thought.
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Jan 17, 2015 17:03
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xopods posted:The natural evolution of the deck-builder is for someone to build a deck-destroyer. Now that I've said that, I just had a great idea for how that would work... it's been a while since I've worked on a new design, gonna have to give this one some thought. No no no, it's obviously Dominion: Legacy. All the expansions will be full of cards that you can't add to the supply until somebody buys three provinces in a turn or something.
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Jan 17, 2015 17:13
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xopods posted:The natural evolution of the deck-builder is for someone to build a deck-destroyer. Miskatonic School for Girls technically does that. Getting the maximum amount of crap in your opponents' decks is the chief mechanic.
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Jan 17, 2015 17:30
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xopods posted:The natural evolution of the deck-builder is for someone to build a deck-destroyer. Now that I've said that, I just had a great idea for how that would work... it's been a while since I've worked on a new design, gonna have to give this one some thought. Uno?
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Jan 17, 2015 17:36
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Durendal posted:There's something I have been pondering lately - why is it that no one has been able to improve upon Dominion? So many games have come and gone over the last six years yet not one has been able to improve upon its formula. Did Donald sell his soul or something? Or did he just some how make a game that is mechanically flawless? Who knows, somebody probably has made a better one but this thread is always so busy jerking it's dick and spraying huge loads all over the place every time someone mentions the name "Dominion" that we'd probably never hear about a better game even if one came out.
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Jan 17, 2015 17:44
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Nah, I mean like a deck builder but with a large initial deck and trashing at the forefront rather than as a secondary thing. Could work one of two ways, that trashing your own entire deck is how you win, or trashing your opponent's is. I'm leaning towards the latter, but with a crafting mechanic which requires you to sacrifice basic resources to acquire better cards. So by upgrading things you're becoming more powerful - both by getting more good stuff and getting rid of weaker stuff, but simultaneously you're reducing your own "hit points" as it were.
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Jan 17, 2015 17:46
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It's not just this thread and Goons aren't the only people who love the game. There are other deck builders out there but other than maybe Mage Knight none of the them would have existed without the astounding popularity of Dominion. Which is why they aren't as popular. Hearthstone is the first CCG-Magic style game that is coming even close to Magic the Gathering in popularity and it took 21 years for that to happen.
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Jan 17, 2015 17:49
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The Mechwarrior ccg had your deck as your life total - you could attack your opponent's deck with your guys to force them to mill cards. You lose when your deck hits 0 cards. Dunno if that helps.
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Jan 17, 2015 17:50
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Magnetic North posted:I admit I haven't played all that many deckbuilders at this point, but I'm still waiting to see one that adds something to the game that actually adds something to the game. This is my biggest problem with Thunderstone: you get cards to beat monsters which is a means to get additional cards... or I could just buy cards in Dominion and cut out the middleman. At least with something like Shadowrift, it feels less like filling out paperwork: sure, you can get cool cards to do fun stuff, but if you don't kill monsters, you're going to lose. Don't get me wrong: Shadowrift is not really better than Thunderstone, but it is at least different from Dominion to make it play its own way, and doesn't feel like adding dull hurdles to an otherwise elegant game. Eminent Domain did a really good job of actually adding something meaningful to Dominion. Unfortunately, the game faltered in the replay area, and while Escalation fixes that somewhat, it's still not nearly as replayable as Dominion.
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Jan 17, 2015 18:07
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Chomp8645 posted:Who knows, somebody probably has made a better one but this thread is always so busy jerking it's dick and spraying huge loads all over the place every time someone mentions the name "Dominion" that we'd probably never hear about a better game even if one came out. wow, look at this edgy guy! 5 golden manbabies for this gbs superstar!
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Jan 17, 2015 18:08
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hey anyone heard of this few acres of snow thing
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Jan 17, 2015 18:11
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Broken Loose posted:I wish you were banned. You're a terrible loving gimmick, and if you aren't a gimmick, I wish nothing but absolute agony on you. I hope you wake up to your loved one's cold corpse in the passenger seat of your car, leaving you nothing a barrage of bile and hatred from her family and a piercing trauma that gives you panic attacks each time you see the loving sun rise. The fact that a person like you could conceivably exist and is keeping this company afloat is why McCain and Palin achieved more than 0 votes in the 2008 election. You are proof that this world is hell. I would rather these forums be populated by nothing but 7thBatallions, Noctis Horrendaes, TheBluePyramids, and Hollismasons all hopped up on drugs, fashioning greenstuff teeth for each other and bashing together Hammerheads out of dog poo poo and chicken bones, than ever be confirmed that you genuinely believe the puke-ocalypse of fanaticism and horseshit that you expouse online. gently caress. You're my inspiration Broken Loose!
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Jan 17, 2015 18:12
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the joke is that i got probated for a legitimately hilarious post because internet baby reported me for his feelings getting hurt. edit: i mean, poo poo. if "post awesome poo poo broken loose has said or done" is supposed to be some kind of a comeback, why not post the wu-tang kabuki video or the megaman battle network flowchart?
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Jan 17, 2015 18:14
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Magnetic North posted:I admit I haven't played all that many deckbuilders at this point, but I'm still waiting to see one that adds something to the game that actually adds something to the game. This is my biggest problem with Thunderstone: you get cards to beat monsters which is a means to get additional cards... or I could just buy cards in Dominion and cut out the middleman. At least with something like Shadowrift, it feels less like filling out paperwork: sure, you can get cool cards to do fun stuff, but if you don't kill monsters, you're going to lose. Don't get me wrong: Shadowrift is not really better than Thunderstone, but it is at least different from Dominion to make it play its own way, and doesn't feel like adding dull hurdles to an otherwise elegant game. Lots of deckbuilders add things or feature them more prominently. Star Realms, for example, features a lot of auto-trashing cards, asymetrical gameplay in some game modes, a distinction between "bases" and "ships", an "ally" system, and a constantly changing supply. Some of these it pulled from non-Dominion games. Just because you prefer Dominion doesn't mean other games haven't added anything. Sometimes I want to play Dominion, sometimes I want to play Star Realms.
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Jan 17, 2015 18:18
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speaking of Dominion my mom beat me in it yesterday and talked a bunch of poo poo then ordered Intrigue
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Jan 17, 2015 18:23
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Broken Loose posted:the joke is that i got probated for a legitimately hilarious post because internet baby reported me for his feelings getting hurt. Actually that was a painfully embarrassing meltdown level post and not something to be proud of.
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Jan 17, 2015 18:27
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esquilax posted:Lots of deckbuilders add things or feature them more prominently. Star Realms, for example, features a lot of auto-trashing cards, asymetrical gameplay in some game modes, a distinction between "bases" and "ships", an "ally" system, and a constantly changing supply. Some of these it pulled from non-Dominion games. There's a difference between "adding things to dominion" and "adding something meaningful to dominion." Star Realms is kind of grapeshot design in that it throws a bunch of poo poo at the deckbuilding wall to see what sticks. It's still just a messy derivative of Ascension with all the inherent problems of the Market Deckbuilder model. The reason for bringing up EmiDo is because the concept is actually incredibly sound, the game core is significantly different from Action>Buy>Cleanup>Score Points due to the lack of buying most of your cards, and the very divergent mechanics come as a very natural extension of what is provided. The Thunderstone types do weird things like having Strength as a currency to buy monsters which sit in your deck. Star Realms still has Thunderstone's messy and un-thematic mixture of clashing resource types in a game that claims to be thematically more cohesive than Dominion. Also, it has severe politics issues (which Dominion went out of its way to prevent), lacks important game balance restrictions, and is sold mainly because it's cheap. Cheap and has lasers isn't a meaningful addition to the genre.
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Jan 17, 2015 18:28
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T-Bone posted:speaking of Dominion my mom beat me in it yesterday and talked a bunch of poo poo then ordered Intrigue Your mum is the best.
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Jan 17, 2015 18:35
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Can someone explain why Eminent Domain is good? As far as I can tell, it looks like simplified Dominion plus simplified Race for the Galaxy, resulting in a game that looks really simple. But I'm willing to be convinced otherwise.
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Jan 17, 2015 18:35
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Broken Loose posted:There's a difference between "adding things to dominion" and "adding something meaningful to dominion." Star Realms is kind of grapeshot design in that it throws a bunch of poo poo at the deckbuilding wall to see what sticks. It's still just a messy derivative of Ascension with all the inherent problems of the Market Deckbuilder model. Oh yes I forgot that those 5 major differences that make the game play completely differently weren't meaningful differences.
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Jan 17, 2015 18:41
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esquilax posted:Oh yes I forgot that those 5 major differences that make the game play completely differently weren't meaningful differences. I think "improvements" would've been a better term, there.
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Jan 17, 2015 18:42
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esquilax posted:Oh yes I forgot that those 5 major differences that make the game play completely differently weren't meaningful differences. Wait a minute, are you the guy who thinks Star Realms isn't horrendous trash and the worst aspects of Cargo Cult design?
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Jan 17, 2015 18:43
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Broken Loose posted:The Thunderstone types do weird things like having Strength as a currency to buy monsters which sit in your deck. This is why I dislike Thunderstone, retroactively. I didn't know exactly why until I played Dominion but then I realized that Thunderstone is basically just Dominion but you always play with Alchemy 
Rutibex fucked around with this message at 18:50 on Jan 17, 2015 |
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Jan 17, 2015 18:48
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Lord Frisk posted:Wait a minute, are you the guy who thinks Star Realms isn't horrendous trash and the worst aspects of Cargo Cult design? Like many games, it's a lot more popular outside of the opinions of the "popular" posters in this thread. If you haven't played it I recommend you try it, it's very simple and quick. Also it doesn't have multiple resources as people keep saying. There's only gold and the VP mechanic. esquilax fucked around with this message at 18:53 on Jan 17, 2015 |
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Jan 17, 2015 18:51
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esquilax posted:Like many games, it's a lot more popular outside of the opinions of the "popular" posters in this thread. Monopoly sans auctions is also "popular", most people here prefer to talk about whether a game is actually good. (I've played it, it's a market-row deckbuilder with no mechanics to mitigate the randomness of the market, hence it's pretty much guaranteed to suck)
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Jan 17, 2015 18:54
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Oh no, I've played it. It works best as an app.
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Jan 17, 2015 18:55
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Star Realms is quick because it's snowballs out of control incredibly quick. It's the worst parts of Ascension magnified to encompass the entire game, and some pointless chaff added.
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Jan 17, 2015 18:55
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PerniciousKnid posted:I think "improvements" would've been a better term, there. Would you mind defining these improvements? Because I played 50-odd digital games of Star Realms and found it was Ascension with one of the routes to victory taken away and an obvious dominant strategy (buy Outposts).
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Jan 17, 2015 18:57
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Jedit posted:Would you mind defining these improvements? Because I played 50-odd digital games of Star Realms and found it was Ascension with one of the routes to victory taken away and an obvious dominant strategy (buy Outposts). What I meant was, it would be better to say the changes made in Star Realms are not "improvements", rather than saying they aren't "meaningful differences" (because changes that make the game suck are still "meaningful").
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Jan 17, 2015 19:13
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Jabor posted:Monopoly sans auctions is also "popular", most people here prefer to talk about whether a game is actually good. It's a popular app recommendation, it's popular on BGG, it's popular on reddit, and they all hate monopoly and rate Ascension much lower. I was accused of being "the guy" who likes it, but it should be clear that many of you are "the guy" that hates it. The ways to mitigate the market are to (1) use the cards that can scrap cards in the market after purchase instead of before and (2) purchase explorers, which are crappy cards but don't reveal new ones in the market and (3) try not to buy cheap market cards with your last gold, even if it makes your hand a little bit better. Jedit posted:Would you mind defining these improvements? Because I played 50-odd digital games of Star Realms and found it was Ascension with one of the routes to victory taken away and an obvious dominant strategy (buy Outposts). Bases tend to be weaker cards than ships, so going heavy on bases makes you vulnerable to being out-engined. And because of the constantly changing market an outpost won't always be available or be the best choice. It doesn't have to replace Dominion, but it's definitely better as a filler game, and sufficiently different that you could prefer playing it on many occasions.
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Jan 17, 2015 19:20
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esquilax posted:It's a popular app recommendation, it's popular on BGG, it's popular on reddit, all bastions of good taste I'm sure CaH is also popular, do you really want to die on this hill?
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Jan 17, 2015 19:26
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SuccinctAndPunchy posted:all bastions of good taste I'm sure Not on BGG and not on the boardgame reddit - star realms is actually popular with other game spergs, just not the ones in this thread. It's kind of weird.
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Jan 17, 2015 19:29
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Trying to beat Dominion at Dominion is like trying to beat Michael Jordan by being more Michael Jordan than him. You see .. [the following 10000 word allegory between legendary basketball players and board game designers has been redacted] As someone mentioned in a post a while ago, there's probably a lot more open design space in adding deck building as a submechanic to games (Mage Knight) than trying to build a brand new game featuring it as the central mechanic and creating Dominion 2.0. Dominion just has such a huge lead in play-testing and expansions. The tricky part about integrating deck building as a sub mechanic like worker placement is that Dominion games average many more turns than most games, so they would probably need to creatively increase the deck building pace (or just be hella long like Mage Knight) That said, Dominion's biggest flaws in my opinion are:
This leads to the game sort of falling apart in live play when you increase the player count and when certain kingdoms are dealt. So I think Dominion 2.0 would have something to optimize shuffling and maybe some creative concurrency injected in the play procedure I think one thing that's been pointed out is that it's probably going to be a mistake to bolt on a bunch of mechanics that simply complicate Dominion because really the game already gets a little sluggish at bigger table sizes. But maybe it could be done with a duel game or with some streamlining that reduces the shuffle and turn length costs of Dominion Edit: also Legendary Encounters: Alien is fun fozzy fosbourne fucked around with this message at 19:36 on Jan 17, 2015 |
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Jan 17, 2015 19:31
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I played a couple hours of Dominion online with my buddy using that German whatever client "Brett Spiel Welt" or something. It was pretty fun and thanks to computerized assistance it was a fast, fun pace. I can't imagine the game being anything but torture if I had to play it with real cards, especially with a four or more people.
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Jan 17, 2015 19:35
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