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litany of gulps posted:I too remember when African American non violent resistance got them equality with their oppressors. That was a good day in our glorious history. Also, I remember when the Indians weren't super poor and shed the yoke of colonial oppression through their mighty non violent protests. Oh wait, India is a shithole and per capita is one of the worst, most rapey places on the planet to be. Oops! Would it be better if it hadn't gotten independence and was instead still ruled by the British? hakimashou fucked around with this message at 05:17 on Mar 27, 2015 |
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Mar 27, 2015 05:15
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Jack of Hearts posted:If you look at the chart, India doesn't compare to Japan at all. Japan is a weird outlier, especially compared to the polling results from the other east Asian countries, but also in general. Pakistan likes Israel more than Japan. Japan has almost no evanglical Christians to go all insane cultist and has a history of postwar social democratic style liberalism and opposing Israel similar to Germany/Europe
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Mar 27, 2015 05:27
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hakimashou posted:Indians are brown too, and well, African-Americans, they're black! Yeah, there totally wasn't a videotaped summary execution of a black man in New York where the white murderer got off scot free, everything worked out great!
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Mar 27, 2015 05:27
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uninterrupted posted:Yeah, there totally wasn't a videotaped summary execution of a black man in New York where the white murderer got off scot free, everything worked out great! Really? That compares to jim crow, segregation, lynching etc how?
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Mar 27, 2015 05:28
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"Standing in SS uniform, manning a watchtower in the Warsaw ghetto" Germany has a right to exist! *Raping civilians in Paris" Were the sanctions and war reparations, in retrospect, really worth it? hakimashou posted:Since those rocket attacks ended, how often has Gaza City been bombed? Those rocket attacks were in response to IDF airstrikes, so... Zulily Zoetrope fucked around with this message at 05:46 on Mar 27, 2015 |
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Mar 27, 2015 05:29
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hakimashou posted:Really? That compares to jim crow, segregation, lynching etc how? Have you ever been in an American city? If you think segregation is dead, I've got some things to tell you.
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Mar 27, 2015 05:30
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hakimashou posted:Really? That compares to jim crow, segregation, lynching etc how? How can you be so loving dumb as to miss an entire city burning to the ground because the legal system was running a race based extortion racket?
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Mar 27, 2015 05:44
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Kajeesus posted:"Standing in SS uniform, manning a watchtower in the Warsaw ghetto" Did they do a good job of ending the IDF airstrikes? Were they aimed at airfields, or in some way designed to be effective in diminishing Israel's capability or motivations for conducting airstrikes? Was the outcome an end to IDF airstrikes? On balance, were they a good idea that achieved their objectives or a mistake that didn't?
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Mar 27, 2015 05:51
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hakimashou posted:Really? That compares to jim crow, segregation, lynching etc how? Name what you think differentiates Eric Garner's murder and a lynching. The only thing I can think of is that there wasn't rope involved.
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Mar 27, 2015 05:52
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hakimashou posted:Did they do a good job of ending the IDF airstrikes? Were they aimed at airfields, or in some way designed to be effective in diminishing Israel's capability or motivations for conducting airstrikes? What do you think the objective was? To annihilate Israel in a firestorm of tiny homemade rockets? Or to attract international attention to their cause, which is a reduction in the ability of Israel to wage near total war on a civilian population?
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Mar 27, 2015 05:57
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hakimashou posted:Did they do a good job of ending the IDF airstrikes? Were they aimed at airfields, or in some way designed to be effective in diminishing Israel's capability or motivations for conducting airstrikes? Just to be clear, you are agreeing that the Holocaust and the Nazi German invasion of France were fully deserved?
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Mar 27, 2015 05:57
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hakimashou posted:I am seriously not trolling. It is a fact that the West Bank has better outcomes than Gaza. It is a fact that violence isn't just failing the palestinians, it is a catastrophe for them of enormous proportions. Violent opposition to israel *is* hopeless. In this case, you are 100% correct. Violent opposition to Israel at this point is hopeless. Life in the Gaza Strip is also hopeless. Therefore, there is no reason not to use violence. In the West Bank, there is some hope, and thus a reason to accept the status quo. It runs both ways. There can be no peace without hope, and walling people into a ghetto and putting them onto a "diet" is not going to inspire hope. Telling them they must stop firing rockets to avoid bombing, then bombing them anyway, is not go inspire hope. The ball is 100% in Israel's court here because there is nothing anyone in Gaza can do on their own that isn't futile, be it war or peace.
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Mar 27, 2015 06:02
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litany of gulps posted:What do you think the objective was? To annihilate Israel in a firestorm of tiny homemade rockets? Or to attract international attention to their cause, which is a reduction in the ability of Israel to wage near total war on a civilian population? Their cause of... islamist terrorist violence against an ally of the west? Violence against non-violent movements is wrong and historically attracts a great deal of condemnation from people that have power. Violence against violent islamist terrorism is par for the course all around the world today. Unless the palestinians commit to nonviolence, their cause isnt one that people in power will ever support. 9/11 and so much of what followed pretty much made islamist violence toxic in the eyes of the world.
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Mar 27, 2015 06:03
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hakimashou posted:Their cause of... islamist terrorist violence against an ally of the west? It's hilarious because the Zionists themselves were terrorists in the 1930s and had blackshirt divisions whose leaders idolized Mussolini. Your argument, once again, is might makes right, because literal sociopathy is the only way anyone could support the genocidal apartheid state that is Israel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_%28group%29 edit: loving holy lol Israel to this very day has a military decoration named after the literal self-avowed fascists. Truly this is the state with the moral imperative here icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 06:37 on Mar 27, 2015 |
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Mar 27, 2015 06:08
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Like honestly can someone please explain to me how a state that honors literal, open fascists can have the moral imperative? A state whose prime minister for 6 years was a key member of the literal, open fascist group? Anyone? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yitzhak_Shamir icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 06:23 on Mar 27, 2015 |
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Mar 27, 2015 06:11
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What do rockets and tunnels have to do with the destruction of water treatment facilities, power plants, and civilian homes? Collective punishment is a war crime.
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Mar 27, 2015 06:35
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icantfindaname posted:literal sociopathy is the only way anyone could support the genocidal apartheid state that is Israel Or, say, the mass murder of all Russians ever.
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Mar 27, 2015 06:53
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Ad hominem stuff is all well and good, but it doesn't really speak to the question of whether or not non-violence, like that employed by Mahatma Gandhi and Dr King, is the best hope (and possibly only hope) for the palestinians. I used to support the Palestinians against Israel, I did for a long time. But, I don't anymore. I don't because the palestinians continue to make bad choices that are self-destructive and wrong. I believe it is. I believe that they have tried armed resistance for a long time, and it has only made things progressively worse for them. I think that after 9/11 and the war on terror, any hope armed islamist resistance to israel might have one had ended definitively. I dont believe that Hamas and Islamic Jihad and the other groups that run Gaza will ever be able to successfully lay claim to any kind of moral high ground in the opinions of the world's leaders as long as they continue be preach and practice violence. I don't believe any amount of 'martyring' their population by provoking israel to strike and then publicizing the non-combatant casualties will ever be effective, because Israel can continue to use its successful canard "we use our weapons to protect our people, they use their people to protect their weapons - there is a clear right and a clear wrong." I also believe that continued violence by Hamas in Gaza negatively affects the Palestinians in the West Bank. If nothing else, it makes Israeli right wingers seem more credible when they claim that the palestinians in the west bank have to be tightly controlled. To people who think that continued violence will lead to a good outcome - what's it supposed to look like? Why will things be different next time instead of the same way they've been every other time? I know that it's tempting to say "he's a bad man who said a bad thing when he was drunk and being stupid, so what he is saying now is wrong because he's bad," but surely we can all agree that self control is always for the best. hakimashou fucked around with this message at 07:13 on Mar 27, 2015 |
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Mar 27, 2015 07:07
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So you don't think the moral dimension of this conflict is important? You don't actually care whether Israel is in the wrong or the Palestinians are in the right?
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Mar 27, 2015 07:12
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Jesus Christ.
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Mar 27, 2015 07:13
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Hakimashoui, you might have already stated your stance on this but this threads moving so fast I lost track. What's your stance on the PA's attempts to gain formal recognition of a Palestinian nation? You know, with foreign governments, the UN, the ICC, etc.
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Mar 27, 2015 07:18
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icantfindaname posted:So you don't think the moral dimension of this conflict is important? You don't actually care whether Israel is in the wrong or the Palestinians are in the right? The problem is, at this point, they're both wrong, and they're both right. It's been a long and ugly and complicated conflict and history. But whether or not the palestinians should commit to nonviolence doesn't have anything to do with whether they are right or wrong. They should do it whether they are right or wrong, if anything, they should especially do it if they're right. The Indians were right, and following Mahatma Gandhi's nonviolence, they were successful in their struggle. African-Americans were right, and following Dr King's nonviolence, they were successful in their struggle. Being right doesn't mean that using bad methods which hurt their aims and doom their struggle is the right thing for them to do.
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Mar 27, 2015 07:18
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hakimashou posted:. Nobody thinks anything anyone does in Gaza will lead to a good outcome (well, you claim to, but that's hopelessly naive in the off chance you aren't trolling). P.S. there are more than two historical figures in the history of Earth. Armed struggle has led to liberation a lot more often than non-violence. It's not even relevant here, but your non-argument is wrong on this count too.
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Mar 27, 2015 07:19
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hakimashou posted:The Indians were right, and following Mahatma Gandhi's nonviolence, they were successful in their struggle. That's not at all what happened, though. In either case. Nor in South Africa. All of those movements had both violent and non-violent components, the former being necessary to force the oppressor to agree to the latter.
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Mar 27, 2015 07:21
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hakimashou posted:African-Americans were right, and following Dr King's nonviolence, they were successful in their struggle. The plight of the African-American: a solved problem icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 07:26 on Mar 27, 2015 |
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Mar 27, 2015 07:22
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RandomPauI posted:Hakimashoui, you might have already stated your stance on this but this threads moving so fast I lost track. What's your stance on the PA's attempts to gain formal recognition of a Palestinian nation? You know, with foreign governments, the UN, the ICC, etc. I think it's fine, I think they should be recognized as a nation, the two-state solution is probably the best solution. I don't have any love lost on benjamin nethanyahu or the israeli right wing, or any right wing for that matter. I am skeptical that they will be able to actually make any sort of end-run around the wishes of the US and its allies. I think that the west bank should be treated better, that Israel should take pains to show that if the palestinians stop attacking israel, things will get better for them- there have to be incentives as well as disincentives. But, Hamas is not blameless for the state of the West Bank. Every time Hamas calls for the destruction of israel, or launches some kind of attack, it fuels the Israeli right and hurts the interests of the palestinians. That's probably not fair or right, but that's the way it works.
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Mar 27, 2015 07:25
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icantfindaname posted:The plight of the African-American: a solved problem in America That's not even the point, because any progress that was made depended upon massive riots and the threat of violence against white businesses. They were forced to work with King because the only alternative was Malcolm. Without Malcolm they could ignore King.
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Mar 27, 2015 07:27
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OwlBot 2000 posted:That's not at all what happened, though. In either case. Nor in South Africa. All of those movements had both violent and non-violent components, the former being necessary to force the oppressor to agree to the latter. if that's the case, then isn't it time for non-violence? The violence has gone on an awfully long time, it's hard to imagine that more of it is going to be better. If there is no non-violent component for the oppressor to agree to, then what's the point?
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Mar 27, 2015 07:27
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There is and has been. Pursuing statehood through the UN, which Israel insists is unacceptable. Not to mention many unarmed, nonviolent protests in West Bank that Israeli police crush with force.
OwlBot 2000 fucked around with this message at 07:44 on Mar 27, 2015 |
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Mar 27, 2015 07:29
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hakimashou posted:if that's the case, then isn't it time for non-violence? The violence has gone on an awfully long time, it's hard to imagine that more of it is going to be better. The time for non-violence comes when violence has reached a level the oppressors are willing to accede to demands in order to end it. It's not applicable in this case though because even a third intifada probably couldn't approach such a level of violence.
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Mar 27, 2015 07:30
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The Insect Court posted:Gonna make an easy prediction and say none of the usual suspects are going to actually answer that question(hint: no it was not). Instead we'll get long whiny passive-aggressive posts attacking the asking of the question. Hey past TIC, this is future TIC posting to tell you that you were right! Nobody even tried to answer the question, it was just two pages of the usual hatewank screamfest meltdown. Presumably because actually thinking about the efficacy of various modes of violent resistance by the Palestinians means discarding romantic Orientalist fantasies about Palestinians as martyred noble savages and actually considering them as people. Still waiting for an answer: hakimashou posted:So, in retrospect, do you think digging the tunnels and shooting the rockets was worth it? It's very simple, look: I think the answer is no. I'll do you all one better. Was Operation Protective Edge worth it for Israel: No, it was not. See, it's not so hard.
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Mar 27, 2015 07:30
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The Insect Court posted:Hey past TIC, this is future TIC posting to tell you that you were right! Nobody even tried to answer the question, it was just two pages of the usual hatewank screamfest meltdown. Presumably because actually thinking about the efficacy of various modes of violent resistance by the Palestinians means discarding romantic Orientalist fantasies about Palestinians as martyred noble savages and actually considering them as people. It's called begging the question. Is it worth it for someone to live on the West side of Chicago if they get killed in the crossfire of gang violence? The correct answer isn't "no it isn't worth it they should have moved even if they wanted to live in their community", the correct answer is "gently caress you, rear end in a top hat. Shut up."
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Mar 27, 2015 07:36
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Okay, so how do you expect the Gazans to commit to non-violence? Hamas kept a pretty tight ship since Operation Cast Lead and keep a lid on the rocket attacks, which did not prevent Israel from launching a mass campaign of "arrests" under false pretenses, and eventually air strikes. When you're being literally starved and prevented from producing your own food, when the occupier can decide to drop bombs on any building in town and not suffere any consequences, when your family is being kidnapped and tortured because Israel needs a scapegoat, how do you expect an entire population to just sit there and take it like the bitch that it is? Especially following years of successful self-policing that have done nothing to improve your situation?The Insect Court posted:Hey past TIC, this is future TIC posting to tell you that you were right! Nobody even tried to answer the question, it was just two pages of the usual hatewank screamfest meltdown. Presumably because actually thinking about the efficacy of various modes of violent resistance by the Palestinians means discarding romantic Orientalist fantasies about Palestinians as martyred noble savages and actually considering them as people. Hey, here's an answer: the tunnels could be used to smuggle in building materials and food, and provide shelter and storage. The rockets forced Israelis to acknowledge that Gaza exists, and illuminated the hypocrisy of claiming that Hamas' long range missiles are a threat, while at the same time calling US airlines anti-Semitic for cancelling flights after a missile landed near Ben Gurion airport. Since operation Protective Edge would have happened regardless of Palestinians' actions, they were worth it, if only because the world actually cared about Gaza for 51 days. Now answer one for me: In an operation to purportedly prevent missile launches and seal tunnels, what military goal is served in bombing central water and electricity facilities that have been confirmed to contain no enemy combatants?
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Mar 27, 2015 07:51
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hakimashou posted:I think it's fine, I think they should be recognized as a nation, the two-state solution is probably the best solution. I don't have any love lost on benjamin nethanyahu or the israeli right wing, or any right wing for that matter. Thanks for answering my question. I was going somewhere with it but its so late that I've forgotten.
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Mar 27, 2015 08:30
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Choke on a dick, thanks
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Mar 27, 2015 08:59
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Kajeesus posted:Hey, here's an answer: the tunnels could be used to smuggle in building materials and food, and provide shelter and storage. The rockets forced Israelis to acknowledge that Gaza exists, and illuminated the hypocrisy of claiming that Hamas' long range missiles are a threat, while at the same time calling US airlines anti-Semitic for cancelling flights after a missile landed near Ben Gurion airport. Since operation Protective Edge would have happened regardless of Palestinians' actions, they were worth it, if only because the world actually cared about Gaza for 51 days. First of all, that's not an actual answer to the question posed. It's a weird discursion that shows a truly disturbing lack of contact with reality. The tunnels Hamas built to carry out attacks against border towns inside Israel were really just so they had a place to clean out the stuff from their garages? Or perhaps they were going over to ask to borrow a cup of flour. Somebody should probably sound the alarm that now Hamas is part of the Zionist conspiracy claiming the tunnels weren't for peaceful purposes. And I'm not going to even point out how creepy and narcissistic it is that you seem to think the conflict was justified because it gave Western anti-Zionists the experience of shared bathos in watching Palestinian children die. I'm sure all those homeless families are real supportive of the war because it got lots of misery porn on CNN.
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Mar 27, 2015 09:04
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How is the bombing of children and homes related to the terror tunnels? How is the destruction of vital infrastructure related to missiles fires? I'm assuming that by consistently ignoring questions of that nature, including the one in the very post you are quoting, you are acknowledging that operation Protective Edge was not in fact provoked by those things. Hell, even if we play along with the Israeli line and assume operation Protective Edge would not have occurred if there had been no response to the initial Israeli airstrikes, and no tunnels into Israel had been dug (whose purpose was offensive, yes), indiscriminately bombing civilians and vital facilities is in no way a proportional response. You seem more than willing to acknowledge the operation as a complete slaughter, yet for some reason you hold the people of Gaza solely responsible for the attack, rather than the people committing it. If you cannot establish the bombing of non-combatant civilians, civilian homes and civilian infrastructure as a direct consequence of digging tunnels and shooting missiles, the question becomes meaningless. Tamir Rice, in retrospect, do you think the protesting and rioting was worth it? Charlie Hebdo, in retrospect, do you think the offensive caricatures and depiction of Muhammed was worth it? Norwegian Worker's Youth League, do you think the social activism and island summer camp was worth it?
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Mar 27, 2015 10:01
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I'm not going to explain the Israeli narrative here right now (maybe after a few more cups of coffee I will) but it's seriously amazing that TIC is the only one who is seemingly even able to grasp what it is. Edit: seriously some of you guys are still doing the 'the tunnels into Israel and inside of Gaza were used for smuggling goods' which personally I find incredible, are we next going to talk about how the Iron Dome wasn't effective and how Palestinians were launching homemade rockets at Tel-Aviv? emanresu tnuocca fucked around with this message at 10:43 on Mar 27, 2015 |
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Mar 27, 2015 10:12
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avshalom, i really have to say that i miss your old avatar. it made me think of that glorious day in the future where ariel sharon is finally given form again as machine god of israel, and he's holding you and caressing you right before you and he become one for all eternity. 
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Mar 27, 2015 10:50
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Condiv posted:avshalom, i really have to say that i miss your old avatar. it made me think of that glorious day in the future where ariel sharon is finally given form again as machine god of israel, and he's holding you and caressing you right before you and he become one for all eternity.
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Mar 27, 2015 10:58
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