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Kajeesus posted:And as long as those "security measures" are in place, Israel is responsible for the well-being of the people of Gaza. You can't shift the goalposts forever. Lets examine this a little deeper. If Israel is responsible for governing Gaza, what responsibilities do Gazans have towards Israel? If Israeli EPA were to deem the Gaza Strip environmentally unsuited for human occupation, would Gazans be responsible to adhere to an Israeli order to vacate?
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Apr 22, 2015 20:48
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Actually MIGF, I think it is the responsibility of the state occupying/quarantining the Gazans to ensure that the conditions exist in order to implement these changes. Here is a novel idea: perhaps instead of the state of Israel losing its mind and going berserk every time Hamas does something crazy, why can't it simply put on some big boy pants and approach the problem in a way that won't simply spawn more terrorists and in response another orgy of indiscriminate violence every two years? Could it be that the country is led by people who are either too stupid and/or afraid of its own constituency to deal more precisely and surgically with the terrorist problem, or that it is politically convenient for the right wing in Israel to have a captive population of helots nearby that they can ritualistically whip into submission every few years?
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Apr 22, 2015 20:54
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My Imaginary GF posted:Lets examine this a little deeper. If Israel is responsible for governing Gaza, what responsibilities do Gazans have towards Israel? No one said Israel should be governing Gaza. Israel has a duty to provide basic necessities for the people of Gaza so long as Israel is taking active measures to prevent Gazans from providing for themselves. Is this a statement you disagree with?
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Apr 22, 2015 20:58
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My Imaginary GF posted:Those security policies exist as a means of protecting Israel from Palestinian and other arab terrorism and aggression. Those security measures will not go away until the perception within Israel is that of Palestinians and arabs unwilling to engage in terrorism. Any other argument is inconsequential; just, unjust, doesn't matter, as Israeli policy is that those security measures are essential in order to prevent continued arab and Palestinian suicide attacks against Israel. Any further attacks only serve to reinforce that Palestinians are disinterested in peace and loosening security controls will result in more dead Israelis and lost knesset seats. Yeah, look at how well that works for the PA pretend I posted a link to the latest mass abduction and imprisonment of Palestinians by jackbooted IDF thugs My Imaginary GF posted:Lets examine this a little deeper. If Israel is responsible for governing Gaza, what responsibilities do Gazans have towards Israel? Here's a better question: If the Israeli authorities deliberately ruined Gazan infrastructure to the point where it was unsuitable for human habitation, refused to clean it up, and refused to allow Gazans to clean it up, would a mass eviction on environmental grounds be any less of an ethnic cleansing?
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Apr 22, 2015 21:03
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My Imaginary GF posted:Yes, its because those sites were used to launch terrorist attacks against Israel. Any site used to launch an attack is open to retaliation. Don't like it? Gaza should police itself. I'm sorry if I'm wrong, but I remember that, during last years conflict, one of the very first Israeli bombings was specifically to assassinate a police chief who put a lot of effort into curtailing Palestinian rocket launches.
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Apr 22, 2015 21:37
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It's amazing the lengths to which Israel's defenders will go to forget everything Israel does, as if Palestinians simply magically appeared one day inside Israel's borders, their hands full of rockets and rocks.
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Apr 22, 2015 21:43
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My Imaginary GF posted:They could finance their operations like every other governing institution: do the responsible thing and implement taxes combined with non-essential service cuts. Unfortunately, Hamas is not a rational actor, they are a demographic supremacist organization willing to implement only populist policy agendas. When an occupying state has placed your populace into a siege that not only prevents economic development, but ensures the decay of infrastructure, the occupied government has no means to collect taxes to provide civil services. Do you look at Gazans and see people living high on the hog?
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Apr 22, 2015 22:21
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What is the point of responding to MIGF, he is a coked up mentally ill dipshit
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Apr 22, 2015 22:26
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The only purpose MIGF's posts serve here is re-iteration of Israeli-American consensus politics about I/P, but we all know that so it's pointless.
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Apr 22, 2015 22:52
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My Imaginary GF posted:They could finance their operations like every other governing institution: do the responsible thing and implement taxes combined with non-essential service cuts. Unfortunately, Hamas is not a rational actor, they are a demographic supremacist organization willing to implement only populist policy agendas. You mean tax money that is illegally seized by the Israeli government?
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Apr 22, 2015 22:54
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Flip Yr Wig posted:When an occupying state has placed your populace into a siege that not only prevents economic development, but ensures the decay of infrastructure, the occupied government has no means to collect taxes to provide civil services. Do you look at Gazans and see people living high on the hog? I see folks in this thread demanding Gazans receive a handout from Israel, without accepting any responsibility for a minimum standard of self-governance. Maybe if Palestinians didn't launch guerrila raids against Israel and conduct campaigns of suicide attacks, there wouldn't be as secure a border between Israel and Palestine. Job Truniht posted:You mean tax money that is illegally seized by the Israeli government? Funny, I was unaware of Israeli revenue agents operating in Gaza strip. Maybe Hamas could implement an income tax in Gaza to pay for its services, if it really wanted to be treated as a legitimate governing organization.
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Apr 22, 2015 22:56
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Jagchosis posted:What is the point of responding to MIGF, he is a coked up mentally ill dipshit It's purely for the benefit of any third parties reading this thread, I think. Some of his posts aren't openly genocidal, but when cornered he eventually winds up saying stuff like this: My Imaginary GF posted:I see folks in this thread demanding Gazans receive a handout from Israel, without accepting any responsibility for a minimum standard of self-governance.
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Apr 22, 2015 23:07
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My Imaginary GF posted:Funny, I was unaware of Israeli revenue agents operating in Gaza strip. Maybe Hamas could implement an income tax in Gaza to pay for its services, if it really wanted to be treated as a legitimate governing organization. Yeah you're full of poo poo UNCTAD posted:Uncertainties regarding clearance revenue flows. In May and November 2011, Israel suspended Palestinian clearance revenues, as it had done in 2002 and 2006. Despite the eventual release of the revenues, this practice undermines the economic and financial stability of the Palestinian National Authority, especially since public expenditure is a key source of economic growth and clearance revenues constitute 70 per cent of total revenue (World Bank, 2012). Suspension of clearance revenue limits the Palestinian National Authority’s ability to meet its contractual obligations to the private sector and the salaries of public sector employees on time. It also limits the prospects of private investment by fostering a climate of uncertainty and increased risks to private sector contractors and creditors. Furthermore, the Palestinian National Authority’s ability to plan its finances is undermined by Israel’s unilateral deductions from clearance revenues to cover unpaid energy purchases of the Palestinian National Authority from Israel. Israel has been, quite deliberately, perpetuating a financial crisis in both the West Bank and Gaza for decades.
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Apr 22, 2015 23:11
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Job Truniht posted:You mean tax money that is illegally seized by the Israeli government? Job Truniht posted:Yeah you're full of poo poo Sorry, but you're wrong here. These only affect the PA in the West Bank, as they have a treaty with Israel which explicitly gives Israel the role of collecting this one particular tax on the PA's behalf. Since Israel has no involvement in Hamas' taxation system, it has no ability to seize Hamas tax revenues. However, Hamas already levies plenty of taxes on Gaza. In fact, I'm pretty sure MiGF knows that already, given that he's tried to steer the conversation to taxes several times since Hamas' recent raising of import taxes. But given Gaza's high unemployment and poverty rates and the large proportion of working Gazans whose jobs have been provided by Hamas, there's little revenue potential in an income tax, and it's likely not worth the bureaucratic expense necessary to track everyone's incomes. As long as Gaza's economy is crippled by blockade, taxation of any sort will be of limited effectiveness there.
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Apr 23, 2015 00:24
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My Imaginary GF posted:They could finance their operations like every other governing institution: do the responsible thing and implement taxes combined with non-essential service cuts. Unfortunately, Hamas is not a rational actor, they are a demographic supremacist organization willing to implement only populist policy agendas. Gaza has no tax base and no functioning government, because Israel has done a very effective job of destroying both through economic blockade of the former and direct bombing attacks on the latter. Which of course you are perfectly well aware of.
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Apr 23, 2015 00:43
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Main Paineframe posted:Sorry, but you're wrong here. These only affect the PA in the West Bank, as they have a treaty with Israel which explicitly gives Israel the role of collecting this one particular tax on the PA's behalf. The PA has public employees in Gaza and Israel historically raised VAT within Gaza and then asked the Palestinian National Authority to legitimize them. Also Gaza pays for Israel's energy every time they bomb their power plants.
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Apr 23, 2015 01:05
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Lum_ posted:Gaza has no tax base and no functioning government, because Israel has done a very effective job of destroying both through economic blockade of the former and direct bombing attacks on the latter. Which of course you are perfectly well aware of. Gaza's lack of development is not the responsibility of a foreign nation, its the responsibility of a community which had chosen to embrace suicide bombings as a legitimate tactic for political aims. Like I've been saying, nobody is coming to assist Palestinians. If Gazans care about themselves, they'll follow in the footsteps of individuals from India's poorer provinces and work as expats while sending back remittances to their families. Job Truniht posted:The PA has public employees in Gaza and Israel historically raised VAT within Gaza and then asked the Palestinian National Authority to legitimize them. Also Gaza pays for Israel's energy every time they bomb their power plants. You think electricity is free?
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Apr 23, 2015 01:15
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Jagchosis posted:What is the point of responding to MIGF, he is a coked up mentally ill dipshit It's sort of entertaining reading people's rebuttals because they're mainly from people who happen to be more knowledgeable about things than me but yeah, it's like talking to a wall.
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Apr 23, 2015 01:27
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My Imaginary GF posted:You think electricity is free? Is Gaza a separate country or not? Israelis have an interesting definition of a foreign country in a sense that: 1. They cannot have their own army 2. They cannot collect taxes 3. They do not have control over their own coastal waters 4. They cannot generate their own electricity 5. They cannot accept aid to foreign countries 6. They cannot go to the UN or ICC for any of the reasons above
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Apr 23, 2015 01:56
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Ultramega posted:It's sort of entertaining reading people's rebuttals because they're mainly from people who happen to be more knowledgeable about things than me but yeah, it's like talking to a wall. Yeah reading the responses tends to be pretty informative, especially since MIGF's posts are the actual American Zionist-supporter talking points but stripped of all obfuscation and laid bare in full gruesome honesty.
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Apr 23, 2015 02:44
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William Saletan dug into a Bloomberg poll on American attitudes towards Israel and explains why it actually is as bad as it looks. The tl;dr:quote:So here’s a summary of what the poll conveys. When Republicans are asked to pick from a range of guiding principles, almost as many choose Israeli interests as U.S. interests. Most Republicans, in the absence of a two-state solution, prefer Israeli control of Palestinians, through occupation or annexation, to a single integrated country with equal rights. Thirty-seven percent of Republicans consider Israel one of their top five issues, and most of these people would abandon democracy in order to make sure Israel remains a Jewish-controlled religious state. By a wide margin, this segment of the GOP cares more about Israeli interests than about American interests, human rights, or any other principle.
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Apr 23, 2015 02:51
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VitalSigns posted:Yeah reading the responses tends to be pretty informative, especially since MIGF's posts are the actual American Zionist-supporter talking points but stripped of all obfuscation and laid bare in full gruesome honesty. Which is one of the main things leading me to think that he's some kind of deep troll. Also, occasionally the mask slips and he* posts something I doubt any serious person would actually think. *Assuming this hypothesis, MIGF might not be a he, but rather a young lesbian woman living in war-torn Syria.
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Apr 23, 2015 03:24
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If there are two words israel supporters love throwing around it's anti-semite and holocaust.
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Apr 23, 2015 03:25
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Trolls like MIGF are tenacious and determined, and very good at what they do: exploiting the fact that people have a short memory. So I've gone through my 178 bookmarks from during Protective Edge last summer and will post the most interesting ones I found below. Please keep in mind that while I've tried to stick to objective reporting, a number of the articles may come from sources that readers may find biased (though considering the subject matter, all sources will be biased in some way), as well as some blog resources which people may dismiss for not being academic. It is then worth mentioning that the first blog source is simply an archive of references to other sources that may or may not be more to the reader's liking. There was also a great infographic created by a goon in this topic that I plum forgot to include here but don't have the time to find. It has to do with debunking myths about I/P and is really goddamn huge. Could anyone repost it? Introductory material
Rockets and Reasons for Protective Edge aka "What is 'Proportionality'? Can I bomb it?" 
Victims aka "Think of the Children!" 
General Debunking and other nonsense aka "Damned cultural marxist antisemitic liberal media! The world hates us!" 
Israel is America's closest ally! Aka: "Israeli spies are coming out of the vent in the shitter!" and other stories
Conspiratorial nonsense *Insert Dees picture here*
I eagerly await the usual suspects picking out 1 of the above and commit to quibbling over how untrue it is for the next 20 pages ignoring everything else. murphyslaw fucked around with this message at 07:27 on Apr 23, 2015 |
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Apr 23, 2015 07:12
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murphyslaw posted:I eagerly await the usual suspects picking out 1 of the above and commit to quibbling over how untrue it is for the next 20 pages ignoring everything else. It's funny, I could post eerily similar link floods created by right-wingers where they produce "evidence" in the form of dozens of tendentious, inaccurate, and out-of-context articles, charts, and cartoons. The only difference would be that they would have been compiled by some bigot ranting about the supposed scourge of black on white crime, or the encroaching Muslim menace instead of the bloodthirsty and devious Zionists. There's some established phrase for the same tactic as used by creationists, but I can't quite recall it at the moment. That said, I would differentiate the creationist use with the use of the same tactic by white supremacists/islamophobes/other bigots because in the latter case it's not about tricking undecided observers but about amping up the rage and hatred of one's fellow true believers. Kajeesus posted:Facts are anti-Semitic. When I say it's creepy how much this thread can wind up sounding like  obsessively recounting every half-real incident of "black on white' violence they've collected, or how their frenzied denials of racial prejudice usually hinge on the claim they're just dispassionately laying out objective facts(and it's only those loony lie-berals who think the facts are racist), it's stuff like this I'm talking about. fyi.
The Insect Court fucked around with this message at 10:24 on Apr 23, 2015 |
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Apr 23, 2015 09:30
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The Insect Court posted:It's funny, I could post eerily similar link floods created by right-wingers where they produce "evidence" in the form of dozens of tendentious, inaccurate, and out-of-context articles, charts, and cartoons. The only difference would be that they would have been compiled by some bigot ranting about the supposed scourge of black on white crime, or the encroaching Muslim menace instead of the bloodthirsty and devious Zionists. Point out what there is inaccurate?
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Apr 23, 2015 09:36
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Facts are anti-Semitic.
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Apr 23, 2015 09:41
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The Insect Court posted:It's funny, I could post eerily similar link floods created by right-wingers where they produce "evidence" in the form of dozens of tendentious, inaccurate, and out-of-context articles, charts, and cartoons. The only difference would be that they would have been compiled by some bigot ranting about the supposed scourge of black on white crime, or the encroaching Muslim menace instead of the bloodthirsty and devious Zionists. quote:The Gish Gallop is the debating technique of drowning the opponent in such a torrent of small arguments that their opponent cannot possibly answer or address each one in real time. More often than not, these myriad arguments are full of half-truths, lies, and straw-man arguments — the only condition is that there be many of them, not that they be particularly compelling on their own. They may be escape hatches or "gotcha" arguments that are specifically designed to be brief, but take a long time to unravel. Thus, galloping is frequently used in timed debates (especially by creationists) to overwhelm one's opponent.
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Apr 23, 2015 10:20
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I'm flattered that you decided to wrest yourself from your vigorous watermelon loving to give me your attention. That said, perhaps you could engage with the material above and explain what you thought was inaccurate instead of calling me an antisemite in a roundabout way. That would be smashing, old chap. E: assign as much malicious intent to my post as you please, and feel free to equate me to a vicious stormfront bigot posting infowars links as much as you like. While flattering, however, it does not change the fact that the majority of it comes from reputable (if not left-leaning) sources. Also, it is not intended to drown out the opposition as is the goal with a gish gallop, but to remind outside observers of alternative perspectives to the pro-occupation revisionism and obfuscation that so often bogs down this thread. murphyslaw fucked around with this message at 10:30 on Apr 23, 2015 |
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Apr 23, 2015 10:22
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Huh. What's the name for the opposite method, where you misread a single line or pick out one hyperbolic statement and extrapolate the opposing argument entirely from there? Is it the same as the one where you make broad sweeping statements and melt away as soon as someone engages with you directly, only to return a while later to repeat the original statement?
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Apr 23, 2015 10:46
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My Imaginary GF posted:Clearly its Israel's fault for launching rockets at themselves, not the folks who produce songs with lyrics such as, 'To kill a jew is righteous jihad.' Wow, that's impressive. Israel destroys infrastructure and blocks their reconstruction, because if they allowed Gazans to rebuild it would be "white man's burden, lol  ".
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Apr 23, 2015 11:17
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Frankly, arguing with The Insect Court/MIGF is kind of like being in Franz Kafka story.
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Apr 23, 2015 13:36
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It certainly has an element of feverish, maddening repetition. The Groundhog day of posting.
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Apr 23, 2015 13:48
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Job Truniht posted:The PA has public employees in Gaza and Israel historically raised VAT within Gaza and then asked the Palestinian National Authority to legitimize them. Also Gaza pays for Israel's energy every time they bomb their power plants. The PA has public employees in Gaza, but they don't do anything. All the actual public employees in Gaza work for Hamas; the PA "public employees" in Gaza mainly just sit around and collect paychecks for the jobs they had eight or nine years ago. It's a bit of a sticking point in the unity governments and a major source of strife in Gaza right now, since the PA insists on not paying and then firing all the civil servants hired under the Hamas administration, and then rehiring all the pre-2006 Fatah-loyalist civil servants who refused to work for Hamas and continued to be paid by the PA even after losing their jobs. As far as I'm aware, this so-called "salary dispute" (as the media seems to have settled on calling it) is the only policy the PA has pursued so far in Gaza, but since the PA appears to have no intention of paying the Hamas-hired employees who've been working without pay for nearly a year while Hama insists that paying Gaza's civil servants should be the first priority, there appears to be no resolution in sight. It's not an insignificant issue, either, since the jobs of over a hundred thousand people - 70,000 former employees and 50,000 current employees - hang in the balance. Labor actions such as strikes and union demonstrations are common in Gaza, though the usual response by PA representatives is to blame it on Hamas agitators and run like hell. http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/foreign/22-Apr-2015/disputes-between-hamas-unity-govt-deepen-internal-palestinian-split quote:GAZA: Eight Palestinian cabinet ministers suddenly left the Gaza Strip for the West Bank on Monday evening following deep disputes with Islamic Hamas movement.
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Apr 23, 2015 14:36
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murphyslaw posted:a bunch of links The Insect Court posted:waah waaah facts are literally useless and your antisemite Nah, arguing with this guy is McCarthyesque.
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Apr 23, 2015 14:45
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Dreaded antisemitic bastion of hate Al-Jazeera has put together a nifty interactive clusterfuck of sorts that you can play with: http://interactive.aljazeera.com/aje/PalestineRemix/index.html It goes without saying that this is heavily biased towards Palestinians so if you like to shag the odd cantaloupe you might want to skip it.
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Apr 23, 2015 15:28
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Without the Holocaust we wouldn't have Fanta.
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Apr 23, 2015 17:26
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corn in the bible posted:Without the Holocaust we wouldn't have Fanta. Another reason to hate the Nazis
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Apr 23, 2015 17:41
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murphyslaw posted:It goes without saying that this is heavily biased towards Palestinians so if you like to shag the odd cantaloupe you might want to skip it. It's way beyond "heavily biased" and into "outright lies" territory. For example it describes the Trans-Israel Highway as "one of Israel's largest infrastructure projects, it helps Israeli settlers commute between illegal settlements in the occupied West Bank and Israel." Note: the highway in question is 100% within the 1948 Green Line border. Considering all the work Israel does on bypass roads and the like in the West Bank for the benefit of settlers which could more justifiably be highlighted, it's even more curious that they use this for an example, but less so when you notice every description of a town within the 1948 borders as within "historic Palestine". It is a good example of the far-left/BDS view that the very existence of Israel at all is illegitimate, so there's that. Lum_ fucked around with this message at 18:37 on Apr 23, 2015 |
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Apr 23, 2015 18:27
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Lum_ posted:It's way beyond "heavily biased" and into "outright lies" territory. For example it describes the Trans-Israel Highway as "one of Israel's largest infrastructure projects, it helps Israeli settlers commute between illegal settlements in the occupied West Bank and Israel." Note: the highway in question is 100% within the 1948 Green Line border. Considering all the work Israel does on bypass roads and the like in the West Bank for the benefit of settlers which could more justifiably be highlighted, it's even more curious that they use this for an example, but less so when you notice every description of a town within the 1948 borders as within "historic Palestine". Oh, well. Thanks for pointing that out, I hadn't spotted it myself, was distracted by the swank. Vet your sources before you post'em, kids!
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Apr 23, 2015 19:39
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