|
Let's just say that the only characters that stay dead in comics are ones who die as part of a more important character's backstory. And even then it's not a sure thing.
|
#
?
May 23, 2015 20:59
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 06:59 |
|
|
Discendo Vox posted:Electrocutioner and his Gloves Before making Arkham Origins, WB Montreal worked on the "Arkham City Armored Edition" port for the Wii U, and one of the new additions for this version was the Battle Armored Tech mode. It was basicaly a proto-shock gloves mode for Wii U version (and I guess they liked the idea enough to put it in Origins too)... nekoxid fucked around with this message at 21:22 on May 23, 2015 |
|
#
?
May 23, 2015 21:12
|
|
|
Cythereal posted:Maybe it's because I'm American, but I really, really don't get Batman's refusal to kill when it comes to people like the Joker. Refusing to kill mooks, sure, and people who are just victims of another villain (this is Harley, in my opinion), okay, but Batman always says that if he kills that will make him no different from the Joker et al which feels like a hell of a false equivalency and implies that Batman already is just like them he simply hasn't acted on it yet. I rather figured Batman's refusal to kill was his own (very private) acknowledgement that he's not exactly fully sane despite all the moral arguments he advances. Between being concerned about his own judgement about crossing that line and a hefty dose of personal hysteria about people being killed for any reason thanks to his formative tragedy, he's anti-killing even when it's the logical thing to do. As for everybody else not doing it, God only knows admittedly.
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2015 21:17
|
|
|
I like Batman's little speech in the "Under the Red Hood" movie as for why he doesn't kill the Joker. Conversely, not only Batman comics, but a shitload of books, movies and whatever talk about how killing people gets easier the more you do it. Like John Stewart said: if you abandon your principles just because some things are easier, then they're just a hobby, not principles.  So the Joker is killed. Great. That doesn't fix whatever circumstances that lead to his insanity, so another villain as crazy as him could still pop-up in the future. Or the fact that Arkham Asylum is poo poo at treating crazy people and keeping them locked up. Or that Gotham's law enforcement is still awful at prosecuting mass murderers, to at least send him to a federal super-prison. Or that Gotham has a criminal class so desperate that they end up working for the Joker. Those are the things that allow the Joker to keep on killing, not Batman's or anyone else not killing him. If he couldn't escape from jail so easily, couldn't recruit muscle, and there weren't people corrupt enough to sell him guns/explosives, then he wouldn't have such large kill counts. One would think that by now every criminal in Gotham would refuse to deal with him in any way. I understand Batman's refusal to kill him because, satisfactory as it would be, it still wouldn't solve the larger problem. Like how Osama bin Laden being dead didn't stop islamic terrorism in its tracks the day after, and now there's ISIS and others around.
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2015 21:50
|
|
|
I don't think anyone has advanced the argument that Batman should kill Joker, so much as they're amazed that the far less killing averse people that fill Gotham aren't constantly taking a whack at it.
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2015 22:24
|
|
|
I would put forth that Batman should put the Joker somewhere other than Arkham Asylum. In fact, I would put forth the argument that Arkham Asylum is a waste of taxpayer money.
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2015 22:33
|
|
|
Arkham Asylum is basically the Hall of Doom, only people pretend that it's an effective supervillian confinement facility.
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2015 22:35
|
|
|
Eh... he probably should but yeah you see surprisingly small amounts of criminals or anyone trying to kill the joker. It happens occasionally but usually its just one guy and the Joker already had the means to kill or disable that guy before he walked into the room. I remember at least one justice league episode where Lex's team of villains seems like they are getting ready to kill him then Joker disables one and gives them something that makes them let him stick around.....then he single handedly takes out the Flash and Hawk girl I think before skedaddling off while the rest of Lex's villains try to handle things. And the cops in those kinds of things never use their guns at all basically and never really seemed....corrupt so much as lazy. But perhaps I just didn't watch the right episodes.
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2015 22:36
|
|
|
All of this is ignoring the real reason we can't touch the Joker. He's got diplomatic immunity.
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2015 22:51
|
|
|
The point isn't one single incident, it's that given how long it's been going on, Batman is a complete failure at his job and his supposedly genius-level intellect refuses to acknowledge it. Anyway, I started playing Arkham Asylum as it was the game I skipped originally, going straight to city, and it's amazing how great zipping around with the Line Launcher is. Trust Origins to get rid of the fun gadgets.
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2015 22:56
|
|
|
Chaeden posted:Eh... he probably should but yeah you see surprisingly small amounts of criminals or anyone trying to kill the joker. It happens occasionally but usually its just one guy and the Joker already had the means to kill or disable that guy before he walked into the room. I remember at least one justice league episode where Lex's team of villains seems like they are getting ready to kill him then Joker disables one and gives them something that makes them let him stick around.....then he single handedly takes out the Flash and Hawk girl I think before skedaddling off while the rest of Lex's villains try to handle things. And the cops in those kinds of things never use their guns at all basically and never really seemed....corrupt so much as lazy. But perhaps I just didn't watch the right episodes. He pointed out that Batman stuck a tracer onto someone. Lex, I think. And then he took out Batman by hitting him with a rock.
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2015 22:59
|
|
|
I like to think that it's not just "If I kill one, I'll kill them all" or "If I kill them, I'm no better" with Batman. I believe Batman could totally kill Joker and then not the rest. I also don't think he'd lose his mind. I like to think that Batman's innate optimism is what does him in. Remember that this is a guy who truly believes in his heart that he can put on a bat suit and eradicate crime from his entire city. Or at least put in enough of a dent that he could stop. So I think Batman looks at cases like The Riddler where these guys actually have reformed and he thinks "Well if Nygma could do it, I have to give all of them a chance." Never mind that it didn't stick with Riddler (because God forbid comics move forward), Batman has to offer Two Face and Ivy and Harley the same opportunity.
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2015 23:37
|
|
|
Some of Batman's villains genuinely getting better would do a lot to solve this issue and be super cool.
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2015 23:39
|
|
|
This is why we need a story-driven Batman animated series. Like Spectacular Spider-Man was. Just, y'know, keep it from getting canceled.  If there's one problem I notice with the Batman mediums I've seen, it's that writers just tend to rehash Batman's villains without adding much new. I mean, Mr. Freeze getting a backstory added to him was great and revolutionized the character, but now people can't do anything with him without including Nora. Same with Bane and being obsessed with breaking Batman's back. It's probably also the reason why Joker is always the guy that just comes in and kills and kills, because that's his thing. The characters are kind of in a stagnant role. It doesn't help that Gotham isn't getting better, from all indication. I think that'd be an interesting thing to see: a Gotham that gets better and slowly is showing it has no place for the supervillains anymore, and how they react to that. Blueberry Pancakes fucked around with this message at 23:46 on May 23, 2015 |
|
#
?
May 23, 2015 23:43
|
|
|
paragon1 posted:I think Red Arrow's daughter is still dead. dscruffy1 posted:WELL. No actually yeah Lian Harper is dead. Don't know if she's showed up in Prime Earth. Still a bit of a sticking point between Red Arrow and Cheshire. 
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2015 23:53
|
|
|
Hobgoblin2099 posted:I think that'd be an interesting thing to see: a Gotham that gets better and slowly is showing it has no place for the supervillains anymore, and how they react to that. Personally, I'm partial to the theory that the root cause of Gotham's troubles is Batman himself. If he had hung up the cape after defeating the mob, supervillains probably would not have come. Batman's own presence and insanity is what creates and attracts madmen to Gotham, and prevents the city from ever healing. If he were ever to quietly retire, the supervillains would as well or go elsewhere to find heroes. But Batman will never retire and never hang up the cape because Bruce Wayne is just as insane as the people he fights.
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2015 23:56
|
|
|
Kloro posted:All of this is ignoring the real reason we can't touch the Joker. He's got diplomatic immunity. I knew it was only a matter of time before somebody posted that. God I love comics.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2015 00:03
|
|
|
It's a good point, since Supervillains need to escalate their abilities to surpass Batman, but so many just already exist that Gotham would be hosed anyway. Ras, Deadshot, Bane, Scarecrow, and others weren't a reaction to Batman, like Anarky or Two-Face. If Batman weren't around, then they would still be loose in the world and being supervillains, and a different Superhero would step in, since this IS the DC universe with Superman and whatnot. Gotham is still screwed no matter who acts as its protector, the main difference is that Gotham has major issues with corruption which exacerbate its supervillain problem. Toss Superman into Batman's position and nothing will get better, supervillains now have to adapt to be better than Superman instead. Batman, or some other superhero, are necessary to Gotham's survival. What really can save Gotham is Bruce Wayne, ironically, who can provide his fortune to better eliminate corruption and make Gotham less susceptible to mafia-control, pushing Supervillains to act more openly instead of via a rampant criminal underground. Basically, Good Batman Stories don't explore why Batman is bad foe Gotham, they explore that Bruce Wayne is the person who can save everything. Once Bruce stops regressing by acting only as vigilante, but also acting as a positive influence like his parents, Gotham can heal. This gets barely scratched in the Dark Knight movies, which is really frustrating, but I desperately wish it would be more to the forefront of things. Batman only stops Gotham from dying, but Bruce makes Gotham better.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2015 00:16
|
|
|
death .cab for qt posted:Basically, Good Batman Stories don't explore why Batman is bad foe Gotham, they explore that Bruce Wayne is the person who can save everything. Once Bruce stops regressing by acting only as vigilante, but also acting as a positive influence like his parents, Gotham can heal. 
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2015 00:28
|
|
|
I think the best bit of unintentional dramatic irony in the Dark Knight movies is that Batman blows up the monorail his parents tried to build while fighting a supervillain, destroying it completely.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2015 00:35
|
|
|
death .cab for qt posted:Basically, Good Batman Stories don't explore why Batman is bad foe Gotham, they explore that Bruce Wayne is the person who can save everything. Once Bruce stops regressing by acting only as vigilante, but also acting as a positive influence like his parents, Gotham can heal. The problem with these games is that we never see the "Bruce" part of the story, it jumps straight into the "Batman" portion.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2015 01:29
|
|
|
"The Joker's Favor" might be a fun Batman:TAS episode to check out if this most recent Joker chat has interested you.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2015 01:31
|
|
|
My lust for Joker death is generally nonexistent. Most other Batman medias that both make an actual attempt at having sound continuity and use a bloodthirsty Joker have already explored some of the possible Joker death scenarios. It's interesting to note that we're in a thread where the franchise has killed the Joker so we already know this Joker gets what's coming to him after only a couple more big capers. In other medias there's been Nicholson's death in the Burton films, Hamil's double 'deaths' in the Animated Series version and Injustice's Joker slaying via Superman. Goyer brainstormed a variant, prosecution-centric sequel to The Dark Knight that would've dealt with a Ledger-Joker's trial in a more realistic situation but that idea was cut in its infancy due to real life events. Within comics there've been a ton of elseworlds and other isolated one-shots that have dealt with the Joker's death. These range from TDKR's iconic scene to JLA: The Nail where Bruce finally snaps and does the deed himself, as well as sillier examples like Blood Storm (Vampire Batman drinks Joker's blood and then stakes him) or Two Faces (Bruce deduces Joker is a tyler durden-esque creation of his own mind that he mutually destroys via suicide). Honestly, sometimes it seems like the only bloodthirsty version that's mostly safe from death is the standard comicbook version but I haven't seen all the cartoons to say. I don't think comic books fully hit the criteria of 'sound continuity' though. Writers come and go with little regard to what their predecessors did or even what their current peers are doing w/characters. The Joker was once, for example, sent to the supermax prison designed for superpowered villians at anarctica when one writer wanted to explore that sort of consequence - later he simply 'broke out' when another writer wanted to use the Joker in a story. Considering the entire DC universe went through a drastic reboot that de-aged everyone somewhat recently (there was another reboot in the mid-80s as well) that reverted everyone to an indistinct point 'early' in their careers, comic books strive for a very foggy continuity that's best consumed as an anthology of unrelated stories written by different authors sharing only the same locations/characters unless told otherwise. It would be nice though if editors just kept a tighter mandate on the Joker, allowing him only infrequently at best rather very frequently as seems to be the norm. That'd soothe a lot of sores. I wouldn't mind seeing an elseworld or two that deals with Joker's death in a more mundane situation (police brutality, etc). hard counter fucked around with this message at 06:14 on May 24, 2015 |
|
#
?
May 24, 2015 01:44
|
|
|
I could swear that I once read something where Lex Luthor broke out of the pen, some cop yelled "He has a weapon" even though he really didn't and shot him, and the rest of the comic deals with the fallout of Luthor's half-completed schemes all crashing over and collapsing without the man himself there to guide his empire. But I cannot for the life of me find that story anywhere and now I think I might be insane.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2015 04:22
|
|
|
All this talk about the Joker and what Batman could of couldn't do made me think of this robot chicken sketch's take on it: https://youtu.be/PfH3bDPNGHw
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2015 05:53
|
|
|
Jimmy4400nav posted:All this talk about the Joker and what Batman could of couldn't do made me think of this robot chicken sketch's take on it: https://youtu.be/PfH3bDPNGHw What's up at the end there? I don't follow what's with that thing in their hands.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2015 06:16
|
|
|
bman in 2288 posted:What's up at the end there? I don't follow what's with that thing in their hands. Wet sponges, wetting the head of whoever's in electric chair makes death quicker and less agonizing.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2015 06:23
|
|
|
bman in 2288 posted:What's up at the end there? I don't follow what's with that thing in their hands. They were sponges, they didn't put them on the joker's head before the electric chair fired. Normally for these kinds of executions they're supposed to do that to better conduct electricity and kill the person faster, but since they didn't, he burned to death, that whole last part is a homage to The Green Mile where some guards "forgot" the sponge for a really vicious criminal before he was put in the electric chair. *Edit drat ninja's by one minute!*
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2015 06:24
|
|
|
Oh. Neat. Thanks. That was still a funny clip, though.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2015 06:32
|
|
|
Night10194 posted:I think the best bit of unintentional dramatic irony in the Dark Knight movies is that Batman blows up the monorail his parents tried to build while fighting a supervillain, destroying it completely. That stupid monorail looked impractical as gently caress anyways.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2015 06:45
|
|
|
 This is way too serious of an expression for a Batsuit with purple gloves.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2015 07:19
|
|
Hobgoblin2099 posted:
Do you get the old Joker Gun from AA with that one?
|
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2015 08:35
|
|
|
Look, people in the 1930s were intimidated/impressed a lot more easier than people of today. The man in that costume also went around killing thugs left and right. You ever hear of the Mad Monk? No? Well that's because after realizing he was a wizard and a vampire, Batman figured he'd never take him out in a real fight and just murdered him in his sleep.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2015 08:36
|
|
|
IIRC I read somewhere that the actual purpose of the purple gloves is funny just because comic convention at the time (and for a long time) was that black needed a highlight color to show detail and add three-dimensionality so hey, purple stands out on black, right? Later artists would get a little smarter and realize that blue is close to black without looking quite as silly, and change the gloves or cape to that (also for a long time DC pretended purple gloves never happened by recoloring old re-released collections). Without the purple gloves, original Batman would be just black and grey... like he is today... which is a weird sort of irony I think.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2015 09:39
|
|
|
Hopping on a long plane ride and probably losing a day or so, so have an early light double update. A Baneful Experience/Polsy Meanwhile, At Blackgate.../Polsy Combat Challenge: Panorama/Polsy with Judas Contract Deathstroke Predator Challenge: Quiet Waters/Polsy with Batman: Noel
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2015 13:07
|
|
|
I like the character design for Bane a lot more in this game compared to whatever the hell he was in AC.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2015 14:11
|
|
|
Is it bad that I was really hoping he'd piledriver the joker there? I knew it wouldn't happen because burtman doesn't kill, but I still wanted it to happen 
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2015 14:18
|
|
|
So... That was... I mean... what? I like that part of Origins with the Joker, and probably only that part, not because it's super good or anything, but just for that moment when you realize that when Joker got Harley Quinn to follow him to the ends of the earth in devotion he was talking about Batman. I'm still not sure I fully understand what they were going for with the playable Joker section though. Like I'm assuming it has something to do with that red hood? Speaking of the playable Joker section, I like how they made all new animations for him fighting dudes and used them all of ONCE. Somehow it seems like a waste rather than a good use of animation budget.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2015 15:05
|
|
|
Playing as the Joker, intimidating dudes and building a criminal empire, would have been fun to do. Really fun. I can imagine some really insane gadgets.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2015 15:14
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 06:59 |
|
|
IBlameRoadSuess posted:I'm still not sure I fully understand what they were going for with the playable Joker section though. Like I'm assuming it has something to do with that red hood? In the first video while I cruised around the Batcave a bit one of Bat's crime boards had the Red Hood gang on it. The entire thing is a reference to the Killing Joke, one of the better (best?) Joker-centric storylines. It's an origin story for the Joker, and it revolves around his failing career as a stand-up comedian and his one really bad day. It's similar along the lines of the Joker's origin in the first Tim Burton Batman movie, where Batman is responsible (directly or indirectly) of dropping the Joker into the chemical tank. As far as the animations goes, something I couldn't show in the Arkham Asylum LP was that there is a Joker challenge mode. It's only available in the Macintosh and PS3 versions, which is...odd. Anyway, I believe some of the animations were taken from that, but not all of them. Some of the instant takedowns are identical to what Batman and Deathstroke use.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2015 15:29
|
|