Grognards.txt NEXT: Goodnight, Sweet Wince

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > Grognards.txt NEXT: Goodnight, Sweet Wince

Jonas Albrecht: Jun 7, 2012

spectralent posted:

Wait, is the OSR someone's personal IP? I thought OSR was an independent renaissance of people rediscovering old-school games. If it isn't a specific person's product, how can you write an unauthorised entry on it?

OSR is a huckster trotting out his wagon full of snake oil, promising that it's an all things to all people style of gaming that rewards imagination and creativity, and then you squint at the label and realize you're being sold the same elf-dorf because Gary bullshit.

# ? Jul 23, 2015 05:08

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# ? Jun 9, 2024 09:32

hexwren: Feb 27, 2008

Antivehicular posted:

I really like how his "revenge," in addition to being unthinkably petty, is also self-defeating. "Oho, so My Hated Enemy wants to write a history of my RPG movement? I'll deny him any information so he can't write about my contributions! This will prevent my work from being memorialized and also... hurt him... somehow!"

It'll specifically hurt by allowing me to continue to call this so-called history an incomplete hackjob because it ignores my important contributions!

# ? Jul 23, 2015 05:37

starkebn: May 18, 2004; "Oooh, got a little too serious. You okay there, little buddy?"

And Shannon can't talk to the other contributors some how

# ? Jul 23, 2015 05:44

Slimnoid: Sep 6, 2012; Does that mean I don't get the job?

starkebn posted:

And Shannon can't talk to the other contributors some how

Big OSRIC controls all information, obviously.

# ? Jul 23, 2015 05:51

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

quote:

READ AN RPG BOOK IN PUBLIC WEEK

March 1st - 7th, 2015
July 26th - August 1st, 2015
September 27th - October 3rd, 2015

Read An RPG Book in Public Week is an event that happens three times a year, during the weeks surrounding March 4th, July 27th, and October 1st (starting on the Sunday on or before, and ending on the Saturday on or after). During these weeks, roleplaying enthusiasts are encouraged to take their favorite RPG rulebooks out with them and read them in public - on the bus, in the coffee shop, at lunch, at the park, or anywhere (as long as it isn't disruptive to work, school, church, or any other functions).
What's the point?

The point is to make the roleplaying hobby more visible, to get it "out of the basement" and into public areas where more people can see it. This will make others more aware of the hobby - some may ask you what your book is about, giving you the opportunity to explain the hobby to them. A few of those may be interested enough to try it themselves. Former gamers may see what you're reading and think about the great times they used to have with roleplaying, and possibly even try it again.

What book should I read in public?

It's your choice. Personally, I like to choose books with nice covers that catch the eye of bystanders. One of the great things about RPG rulebooks is the incredible artwork that can be found on most of the covers. I've read books like Nobilis in public places and have always had someone comment on them.

Try to stick to more tasteful RPGs. Most people who aren't familiar with the hobby might not see the humor in Kill Puppies for Satan or Kobolds Ate My Baby, at least not right away. Don't read something that will obviously offend most of the people in the environment (such as reading Demon: The Fallen in a church). Sure, these games are as fun and harmless as the others, but it's counterproductive to the purpose of this project.
Why three weeks? Why not just one?

The problem with annual events is that they're so far apart. If you miss one, you've got to wait a whole year for the next one. Since this event is so simple to participate in, I wanted to make it frequent enough that anyone could join in, even if they've recently missed it.

Why these three weeks?

March 4th was designated as GM's Day in 2008, and was coincidentally the same day that E. Gary Gygax, the co-creator of Dungeons & Dragons, passed away. July 27th is Gygax's birthday, and October 1st is the birthday of Dave Arneson, the other co-creator of Dungeons & Dragons. It is also common for the American Library Association's Banned Book Week to happen on or close to this week - and RPG books have been banned from some schools and libraries in the past due to many misunderstandings about their content and nature, which is the exact sort of thing that this event is hoping to clear up.

Why a special event? Can't I do this whenever I want?

Sure! Do it all the time! That would be awesome! The point of the event is to encourage gamers to make their hobby more public, to answer questions that non-gamers may have, and to generate interest in others who may want to try it for themselves. Making it an event like this encourages people to participate. If they continue to do likewise the rest of the year - maybe even going as far as PLAYING some RPGs in public - more the better!

But I already read RPG books in public all the time!

Great! Keep up the good work!

Am I just being an elitist jerk or what because this just reads like another expression of nerds' crippling lack of social skills that they have to resort to baiting people to comment on RPG books.

# ? Jul 23, 2015 05:58

Plutonis: Mar 25, 2011

*looks longingly at Savant and Sorcerer* Time to bust this mofo out

# ? Jul 23, 2015 06:06

Antivehicular: Dec 30, 2011; I wanna sing one for the cars
That are right now headed silent down the highway
And it's dark and there is nobody driving And something has got to give

gradenko_2000 posted:

Am I just being an elitist jerk or what because this just reads like another expression of nerds' crippling lack of social skills that they have to resort to baiting people to comment on RPG books.

The image of this guy carrying around the loving massive Nobilis hardback to "casually" read on the bus or whatever is pretty hilarious, at least.

(Guilty confession time: I once read the World's Largest Dungeon in an airport lounge. In my own defense, I'd just gotten it for Christmas, my flight was delayed, and... uh, really, that doesn't help at all, does it?)

# ? Jul 23, 2015 07:10

1st Stage Midboss: Oct 29, 2011

Eh, there are plenty of things like Knit In Public Day already, this isn't that different. Having it be not just a week long but three weeks over the year reeks of indecisiveness, though.

# ? Jul 23, 2015 07:13

JackMann: Aug 11, 2010; Secure. Contain. Protect.; Fallen Rib

It seems like if you really wanted to sell people on it, the thing to do would be to play in public.

Thinks to the cat piss thread

Then again, maybe not.

# ? Jul 23, 2015 07:18

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

Antivehicular posted:

The image of this guy carrying around the loving massive Nobilis hardback to "casually" read on the bus or whatever is pretty hilarious, at least.

(Guilty confession time: I once read the World's Largest Dungeon in an airport lounge. In my own defense, I'd just gotten it for Christmas, my flight was delayed, and... uh, really, that doesn't help at all, does it?)

I've read RPG books in public a bunch of times, especially when travelling. Basically nobody ever gave a gently caress. I think once it was a D&D book and someone recognized the cover. You are not shamefully revealing your stupid hateful hobby that you need to be embarrassed about, I think. (I mean, unless that makes the RPGs more fun in which case yes, sure, totally, everyone's snort-snickering up their sleeves. Shame on you, reading non-pornographic specialist literature in an airport terminal.)

# ? Jul 23, 2015 07:25

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

quote:

It shouldn't come as a tremendous surprise, given that most of the moderation staff at RPG.net is manned by people fairly famous for despising the OSR, including Paul Ettin (who is also a moderator at Something Awful and one of the guiding lights behind their old-school-bashing "grognards.txt" megathread, which is largely dedicated to insulting and planning acts of sabotage on OSR games and writers). You'd still think that this, being an alleged work of historical research, would at least attempt to put on a facade of objectivity; but maybe you couldn't really hope that given that it was published by Fred Hicks, noted Pseudo-activist, supporter of various attempts at censorship and blacklisting in the hobby, and a guy who has a personal commercial interest in downplaying the OSR while trying to hype up the much less significant works of him and his clique of friends.

I especially love how when someone fairly brave decided to call him on it in his own backyard (the wonder being how the guy who did it hasn't been banned there yet, but I guess Appelcline is sufficiently cognizant of appearances that he'll at least wait a while before contriving some reason), the argument he gave in response amounted to "who knows, its hard to tell what kind of influence they might really have??"... as if it's crucially important to talk about some poo poo game by Vince Baker that three people have played, because its place in History is undoubtedly assured, but who the gently caress knows if the OSR - the defining movement of this decade that already directly influenced the latest edition of D&D - will actually end up having an impact?! How could he possibly tell? Better to ignore the OSR almost entirely except for a single disparaging remark and focus attention on the vitally needed exposition of the work of obscure games no one likes by alumni of the failed Forge project!

But there you are. This is so par for the course from anyone associated with the trifecta of poo poo that is rpg.net/something-awful/Fred Hicks & friends, that it almost wouldn't be newsworthy. Still, I thought I should bring it up just to give fair warning: if you're considering buying the Platinum Appendix for Designers and Dragons under the impression that it is a solid and accurate work of unbiased research, think again.

Is my payola from Fred Hicks convertible to Sorosbucks?

quote:

quote:
The way Designers & Dragon was written may change for there are many things going on that won't fit in. The return of Stafford & Peterson to Chaosium is just one example. The OSR may be another one. So why should the OSR have been included in the book about the 2000s when the 2nd wave of OSR-Games (LotFP, Stars Without Number, Crypts & Things, DCC RPG) arrived the early 2010s and a 3rd wave might be on it's way (beyond the wall?) ?
That's like saying "why talk about the original D&D in the section on the 1970s, when 1e was going to come out in 1979?"

You talk about the OSR because it was the birth (around 2007-8) of the single most important movement EVER SINCE.

quote:

Having grown up alongside roleplaying games I'm glad to say I don't need Appelcline's happy horseshit. It's a shame those that follow may regard it as a definitive reference work. I weep for the children.

quote:

I liked Something Awful and didn't know it was connected to Black Hat and Fred Hicks. I won't buy anything from those guys so I guess that bookmarks gonna be burned as well. Very sad.

quote:

I thought about buying a membership to SA, once upon a time. I have a few friends who are goons, and I like the WTF D&D articles. but then this whole thought police bullshit of theirs started, so now I say gently caress that.

# ? Jul 23, 2015 07:25

paradoxGentleman: Dec 10, 2013; wheres the jester, I could do with some pointless nonsense right about now

It's unlikely that they are going to convince anyone to join the hobby, but the initiative seems pretty harmless all things considered. They even put a reminder for the more socially maladjusted ones not to disturb other people during their crusade.

paradoxGentleman fucked around with this message at 07:41 on Jul 23, 2015

# ? Jul 23, 2015 07:26

Antivehicular: Dec 30, 2011; I wanna sing one for the cars
That are right now headed silent down the highway
And it's dark and there is nobody driving And something has got to give

Nessus posted:

I've read RPG books in public a bunch of times, especially when travelling. Basically nobody ever gave a gently caress. I think once it was a D&D book and someone recognized the cover. You are not shamefully revealing your stupid hateful hobby that you need to be embarrassed about, I think. (I mean, unless that makes the RPGs more fun in which case yes, sure, totally, everyone's snort-snickering up their sleeves. Shame on you, reading non-pornographic specialist literature in an airport terminal.)

Most of my shame has to do with the fact that the WLD is approximately the size and shape (and, uh, playability) of a cinderblock. Why in God's name was I carrying that thing on?

# ? Jul 23, 2015 07:28

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

Antivehicular posted:

Most of my shame has to do with the fact that the WLD is approximately the size and shape (and, uh, playability) of a cinderblock. Why in God's name was I carrying that thing on?

Is it that big? :stare:

The biggest RPG books I've seen or bought have been.... I guess Vampire 20th (but it was two volumes) and Beyond the Mountains of Madness.

# ? Jul 23, 2015 07:30

hexwren: Feb 27, 2008

Nessus posted:

Is it that big? The biggest RPG books I've seen or bought have been.... I guess Vampire 20th (but it was two volumes) and Beyond the Mountains of Madness.

840 pages (and 16 foldout maps) of hardcover fun.

e: :airquote:

fun

hexwren fucked around with this message at 07:41 on Jul 23, 2015

# ? Jul 23, 2015 07:38

Kurieg: Jul 19, 2012; RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20

gradenko_2000 posted:

Is my payola from Fred Hicks convertible to Sorosbucks?

That's like saying "why talk about the original D&D in the section on the 1970s, when 1e was going to come out in 1979?"

quote:
You talk about the OSR because it was the birth (around 2007-8) of the single most important movement EVER SINCE.

From what I can gather, their argument seems to be "If he had an opinion worth listening to, he would already know everything that needs to be known about OSRIC."

Nessus posted:

Is it that big? The biggest RPG books I've seen or bought have been.... I guess Vampire 20th (but it was two volumes) and Beyond the Mountains of Madness.

Here's a copy of Ptolus, compared to other similar books

Ptolus is 640 pages.

WLD is 1000 pages.

# ? Jul 23, 2015 07:41

hexwren: Feb 27, 2008

gradenko_2000 posted:

quote:
I liked Something Awful and didn't know it was connected to Black Hat and Fred Hicks. I won't buy anything from those guys so I guess that bookmarks gonna be burned as well. Very sad.

What the gently caress does this even mean?

# ? Jul 23, 2015 07:42

paradoxGentleman: Dec 10, 2013; wheres the jester, I could do with some pointless nonsense right about now

gradenko_2000 posted:

Is my payola from Fred Hicks convertible to Sorosbucks?

That's like saying "why talk about the original D&D in the section on the 1970s, when 1e was going to come out in 1979?"

You talk about the OSR because it was the birth (around 2007-8) of the single most important movement EVER SINCE.

I could maybe force myself to feel a pang of understanding for these guys if their heads weren't so far their own rear end that they can clearly see what they've had for lunch.

# ? Jul 23, 2015 07:43

Mendrian: Jan 6, 2013

I unno man I used to bring a hardback RPG book on the bus with me to college like every loving day. It was a long bus ride and it was before smart phones, and I was a tool who did homework at home. I don't think it's weird, I think it's weirder that they need a super special day to read RPG books in public, like on any other day they just can't muster up the courage or they're too oppressed or they'll get in trouble or something. That part alone is pretty strange. If you like RPGs and you read RPG books why would you ever need a special occasion to read them in public unless you a.) don't ever read them or b.) never go out in public?

# ? Jul 23, 2015 07:44

Antivehicular: Dec 30, 2011; I wanna sing one for the cars
That are right now headed silent down the highway
And it's dark and there is nobody driving And something has got to give

Allen Wren posted:

What the gently caress does this even mean?

These guys are really, really mad at Evil Hat Games (which Fred Hicks runs/is the face of, iirc) because they were involved in lobbying DrivethruRPG to take down an OSR dude's lovely pro-Gamergate card game. Evil Hat also makes FATE and Don't Rest Your Head, which I imagine makes them Storygame Thoughtcriminals, but the big grudge is the lovely card game thing.

EDIT: I assume by "Black Hat" he means "Evil Hat." I may be wrong.

# ? Jul 23, 2015 07:46

hexwren: Feb 27, 2008

That's the book, the stuff to the left of it is all the maps for it. poo poo is ridiculous.

# ? Jul 23, 2015 07:51

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

Nessus posted:

Is it that big? The biggest RPG books I've seen or bought have been.... I guess Vampire 20th (but it was two volumes) and Beyond the Mountains of Madness.

A quick google tells me it's 1000 pages of A4 that's about 5 and a half pounds heavy.

# ? Jul 23, 2015 07:53

Guilty Spork: Feb 26, 2011; Thunder rolled. It rolled a six.

Antivehicular posted:

These guys are really, really mad at Evil Hat Games (which Fred Hicks runs/is the face of, iirc) because they were involved in lobbying DrivethruRPG to take down an OSR dude's lovely pro-Gamergate card game. Evil Hat also makes FATE and Don't Rest Your Head, which I imagine makes them Storygame Thoughtcriminals, but the big grudge is the lovely card game thing.

EDIT: I assume by "Black Hat" he means "Evil Hat." I may be wrong.

Also it requires a made up version of events. In real life numerous people complained to DTRPG, including one EH staffer, but basically the entire thing happened while Fred was at a medical appointment, and he outright said that if it came to it he would've opposed EH pulling their products from DTRPG over it. Pundit, with his usual regard for the truth, in that same G+ thread declared that we've always been at war with Eurasia.

# ? Jul 23, 2015 09:26

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

Mendrian posted:

I don't think it's weird, I think it's weirder that they need a super special day to read RPG books in public, like on any other day they just can't muster up the courage or they're too oppressed or they'll get in trouble or something. That part alone is pretty strange. If you like RPGs and you read RPG books why would you ever need a special occasion to read them in public unless you a.) don't ever read them or b.) never go out in public?

Yeah I think you hit on why I thought it was a little off-putting. It never even occurred to me that maybe I shouldn't be reading an RPG book in public, apart from practical issues since a full-sized hardcover book isn't the same as whipping out an airport novel.

# ? Jul 23, 2015 09:41

Zereth: Jul 9, 2003

gradenko_2000 posted:

I think that's pretty much all you'd need to know about it from a high-level perspective, and Appelcline is a better man than I if his writing about the OSR won't just contain "this is a community of whiny idiot manbabies", repeated to a 3000-word article.

I really hope that Shannon does write about the OSR, but about the experiences with asking for information for writing about it instead of the games.

# ? Jul 23, 2015 10:11

AmiYumi: Oct 10, 2005; I FORGOT TO HAIL KING TORG

I once brought a copy of MAID along on a long flight to read while we were boarding, specifically to ensure no one would bother me. It _{_^{^possibly}} worked; the person who was supposed to sit next to me requested a seat change. Probably can't pull that off these days, now that every flight anywhere is always full.

Is it still grog behavior if you're completely aware of how it looks, and just doing it to be selfish? I just wanted the space.

AmiYumi fucked around with this message at 10:14 on Jul 23, 2015

# ? Jul 23, 2015 10:11

ProfessorCirno: Feb 17, 2011; The strongest! The smartest!
The rightest!

D&D and other nerd games are just some nerdy poo poo, you're not breaking out the scat porn. One person maybe will give you a look because it's dumb nerd poo poo, and that's about as far as it goes.

Motherfucking nerds think it's still the 80's and someone's gonna accuse them of being SATANISTS.

# ? Jul 23, 2015 10:56

spectralent: Oct 1, 2014; Me and the boys poppin' down to the shops

Antivehicular posted:

These guys are really, really mad at Evil Hat Games (which Fred Hicks runs/is the face of, iirc) because they were involved in lobbying DrivethruRPG to take down an OSR dude's lovely pro-Gamergate card game. Evil Hat also makes FATE and Don't Rest Your Head, which I imagine makes them Storygame Thoughtcriminals, but the big grudge is the lovely card game thing.

EDIT: I assume by "Black Hat" he means "Evil Hat." I may be wrong.

Black Hat Matt, who's involved with Onyx Path.

# ? Jul 23, 2015 11:04

Kurieg: Jul 19, 2012; RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20

spectralent posted:

Black Hat Matt, who's involved with Onyx Path.

Right, but other than his work on Demon, I'm not really sure where his viewpoints would be attacking the OSRIC hivemind, particularly in comparison to Jess Harley and Rich Thomas.

(That and Beast is basically an old school 90's white wolf adolescent power fantasy cranked up to 11)

# ? Jul 23, 2015 14:19

Slimnoid: Sep 6, 2012; Does that mean I don't get the job?

Kurieg posted:

Right, but other than his work on Demon, I'm not really sure where his viewpoints would be attacking the OSRIC hivemind, particularly in comparison to Jess Harley and Rich Thomas.

(That and Beast is basically an old school 90's white wolf adolescent power fantasy cranked up to 11)

There's no logic involved here. The crazy-pants idiot brigade basically try and lump everyone they don't like into this pool of people that are all trying to conspire against the beleaguered OSR for daring to tell it how it is.

# ? Jul 23, 2015 14:29

chin up everything sucks: Jan 29, 2012

I use airplane flights to write out campaign notes, which usually means I have a book sitting on the tray table in front of me for most of the flight.

# ? Jul 23, 2015 15:16

spectralent: Oct 1, 2014; Me and the boys poppin' down to the shops

Kurieg posted:

Right, but other than his work on Demon, I'm not really sure where his viewpoints would be attacking the OSRIC hivemind, particularly in comparison to Jess Harley and Rich Thomas.

(That and Beast is basically an old school 90's white wolf adolescent power fantasy cranked up to 11)

Probably stuff about how White Wolf were the first people to remove the hobby from it's roots, maybe? I dunno.

# ? Jul 23, 2015 16:49

Flavivirus: Dec 14, 2011; The next stage of evolution.

spectralent posted:

Probably stuff about how White Wolf were the first people to remove the hobby from it's roots, maybe? I dunno.

Plus here's an RPG.net mod, which is the most likely cause of grog rage.

# ? Jul 23, 2015 17:03

Kurieg: Jul 19, 2012; RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20

Flavivirus posted:

Plus here's an RPG.net mod, which is the most likely cause of grog rage.

Ahh yeah, I forgot about that. That probably explains it.

Still, those guys are all nuts.

# ? Jul 23, 2015 17:14

Alien Rope Burn: Dec 5, 2004; _{I wanna be a saikyo HERO!}

I'm always amused by OSR choosing to describe itself as a "movement" as if it were something more than just a fundamentalist choice about what rules you use for gnomes. To be a movement - in the sense of a social movement - they'd have to want to change something, but that's precisely what they don't want to do. At best they've gotten more older D&D clones published, but it's not like that wasn't something that's been going on for the past 40 years. To be a movement, there has to be something to struggle against, and it's not like anybody can stop them from exulting in level limits and labyrinthine requirements to play a bard. It's just a means for them to claim false gravitas when it's really just a question of whether or not ascending AC makes you dumber.

# ? Jul 23, 2015 17:44

Halloween Jack: Sep 12, 2003; I WILL CUT OFF BOTH OF MY ARMS BEFORE I VOTE FOR ANYONE THAT IS MORE POPULAR THAN BERNIE!!!!!

quote:

Have you seen the box for D&D's new starter set? Check it out:

Oops! That's from the old Mentzer set. How could I have mixed those two up? Here's the box for the new 4E Essentials Starter Set:

I got to see this at GenCon, inside a large display showcasing Elmore's art. As we were looking at it, a guy came up behind me and said, "Now that's what D&D is supposed to look like!"

The similarities are glaringly obvious. It's not just the same Elmore art, and the exact same shade of red, and the exact same dimensions. It's also the exact same font and ampersand for the name. This box doesn't just harkin back to the Mentzer box; it is almost exactly identical, with only a little change in the text and the company logo at the bottom.

I think Oddyssey nailed it when she suggested that the target audience for this box is clearly lapsed gamers. Middle-aged parents are going to see this and it will evoke immediate memories of all-night summer marathon sessions and biking over to a friend's house to spend a rainy Saturday slaying orcs and exploring ruined temples. The similarities are more than skin deep. Check out these details. Rumor says that the pre-gen characters have Elmore art. And I don't think I've seen die-cut counters in an RPG box since Star Frontiers!

But the pi�ce de r�sistance is the suggested retail price: $19.99. Well within impulse-buy range. This is easily something Mom or Dad might buy for somebody's birthday. Heck, this is something Mom or Dad might buy for the child of some other parents birthday.

Quite frankly, this is the most exciting and imaginative thing I have seen out of Wizard's marketing since the OGL. It's a certain thing this box will be showing up in Borders and Barnes & Noble bookstores across the country. If they can take this to the next level by selling it in Wal-Mart stores, who knows how far this could go? Wizards has a really good chance to hit this one completely out of the ballpark. This could completely change the game.

A rising tide lifts all boats; bringing in lapsed gamers can only be good for the OSR. Some of the folks who buy this set and bring it home are going to be disappointed that Mentzer's rules are not inside. There's already been much discussion on the differences between the most basic aspects of 4e and older versions of D&D; no need to hash that all out again. Folks who don't like what they see in this box may go looking for "the real thing." That means now is not the time for the OSR to rest on its laurels. I don't think we'll get most of the people who buy this box, but I also don't think it's unreasonable to expect a new influx of interested and excited ex-gamers looking for a little bit of the fun of those glorious days of yesteryear. It's going to be up to us to make certain that they can find Labyrinth Lord and Swords & Wizardry and all the rest. Keep an eye out for questions popping up on message boards. Be sure to provide links on your blogs. And we really need to do something to make sure the OSR has a serious presence at GenCon next year.

Between this and the other boxed sets we've seen so far I think we can clearly declare 2010 to be the Year of the Boxed Set. Now is not the time to squander the gifts that have been laid before us.

quote:

Too bad the game is still a soulless mess.

I feel bad for these hypothetical kids getting impulse bought a gilded turd.

quote:

I'm not going to say 4e is bad, but I will say it is radically different than the game that once bore that cover. I think using it again now is dishonest and a cheap ploy to sell people something they don't actually want. 4E is *not* classic D&D, and is not even similar. It's literally a different game. This leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

quote:

I have to admit, I really want to get this for my daughter, although the fact that it's 4e does give me pause. I'll probably do it anyway, but it does make me think "am I going to get her addicted to a bad drug?"

quote:

The rules still have to be written so normal(ish) humans can enjoy the game. The 4e rules I've seen are obnoxiously formulaic (and I read computer code for fun).

quote:

Luckily, this new Red Box doesn't come packaged with the entire OSR blogosphere inside of it, so the kids who eagerly open it will, for a brief moment, be left utterly to their own devices to create their own game experience. Then, after an hour or two of paging through the rulebooks in starry-eyed wonder, they can go online and find out how wrong they are.

Jeez, guys. Give the 12 year olds some credit...if we managed to make a good game out of AD&D, surely they can make a good game out of whatever's in this new Red Box.

# ? Jul 23, 2015 17:46

JackMann: Aug 11, 2010; Secure. Contain. Protect.; Fallen Rib

It's kind of hilarious how the ultra-orthodox OSR guys don't realize how badly they're preventing growth of their "movement" as they alienate anyone who isn't perfectly aligned with their politics and beliefs on game design. They don't seem to get that someone might like more than one kind of game, and treat other people enjoying things they don't like as a personal attack. There are plenty of people who, for reasons of nostalgia or just to get the old school experience, would be happy to try out some OSR, but they're so hostile to outsiders, I can't help but think they're driving a certain number of people away.

I remember talking to John WIck at a con about whether or not you can have tactical combat and still call it an RPG (he doesn't think so), and he seemed to have a similar problem understanding how other people could enjoy things in ways he didn't, but at least he wasn't hostile. Baffled, but he didn't call them commie fascist pinko swine.

# ? Jul 23, 2015 17:57

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

I have to admit if it wasn't for the Older D&D thread here I probably would have given the OSR a pass based on their saltiness over 4e, which I liked well before I got into TG pretty much solely on the basis of how mad it made grogs.

# ? Jul 23, 2015 18:05

senrath: Nov 4, 2009; Look Professor, a destruct switch!

Alien Rope Burn posted:

I'm always amused by OSR choosing to describe itself as a "movement" as if it were something more than just a fundamentalist choice about what rules you use for gnomes. To be a movement - in the sense of a social movement - they'd have to want to change something, but that's precisely what they don't want to do. At best they've gotten more older D&D clones published, but it's not like that wasn't something that's been going on for the past 40 years. To be a movement, there has to be something to struggle against, and it's not like anybody can stop them from exulting in level limits and labyrinthine requirements to play a bard. It's just a means for them to claim false gravitas when it's really just a question of whether or not ascending AC makes you dumber.

Does attempting to reverse an existing change not count as a change? I mean it's still stupid, but it seems to me that a lot of them don't just want their own games to stay the same, they want everyone's games go back to the "good old days".

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gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

senrath posted:

Does attempting to reverse an existing change not count as a change? I mean it's still stupid, but it seems to me that a lot of them don't just want their own games to stay the same, they want everyone's games go back to the "good old days".

I suppose being a Reactionary movement is still a movement.

"In his pipe, you know he's right"

# ? Jul 23, 2015 18:22

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