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Tezzor posted:The ends justify the means Did we really just hit that point? Next thing you're going to tell us is that Hitler should have finished the job to prevent turmoil in the Mideast.
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Oct 15, 2015 01:57
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Fang posted:I may have misinterpreted your scenario. The open-ended point where you're sitting in the car after a tragedy and have a gun? If so, I didn't even see that as open-ended because the possibility of committing suicide in that scenario didn't occur to me. No, the point I was trying to make is that most cases where owning a firearm is hurtful to society are not a result of your immediate actions. Where you is the you reading this forum and feeling sure that you would never kill nor hurt anyone so why should you be restricted by any laws.
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Oct 15, 2015 01:57
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Fang posted:I get that about the guns. The part I don't understand is why you're not pushing solutions for arson and bombs beyond just practicing for what to do if someone sets a fire or sets off a bomb. I am in favor of solutions for arson and bombs beyond training people what to do in their event, such as the banning of the unlicensed production, possession or use of bombs or high accelerants and the authoritarian and racist requirement to force innocent law-abiding citizens to install smoke alarms, sprinklers and fire exits on their own private property.
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Oct 15, 2015 01:58
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Fang posted:I get that about the guns. The part I don't understand is why you're not pushing solutions for arson and bombs beyond just practicing for what to do if someone sets a fire or sets off a bomb. I don't think there are many practical solutions to those that aren't already in place.
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Oct 15, 2015 01:58
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Job Truniht posted:
Shoot, a fella could have a pretty good weekend in Vegas with all that stuff.
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Oct 15, 2015 01:59
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Job Truniht posted:Also, in terms of ammunition needed for a mass shooting: Hey can you throw me a link to the calcular you used for that? Does it also calculate for .45 and 7.62mm? If not, i can probably do it by hand.
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Oct 15, 2015 01:59
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various cheeses posted:Wait I'm confused, did only the son commit suicide in the story? I kept seeing wife/son and wasn't sure if it was two suicides, or like an interchangeable person for the purposes of the thread. He could also have not had a gun in the house. No risk and all of the upside.
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Oct 15, 2015 02:02
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bidikyoopi posted:The gun being readily available to the child is not related to the gun being readily available to the adult who purchased and improperly stored it. Let's say guns needed to be registered and you had to pass a background check: then this dummy would just do all that and then leave the gun in the closet again. Let's say there was a law requiring all guns be locked in a safe when not in use or in transport: the kind of dumb-dumb who leaves unsecured guns around their house with children around is exactly the sort of dummy who would accidentally leave his safe unlocked, or accidentally leave the gun in his car or whatever. I appreciate that you think that, it feels logically consistent but is not true. Restricting the amount of Tylenol per bottle has helped tremendously with suicide and even the weak and unenforced fire arm storage laws we have now in ~18 states are effective in reducing suicide in 14-19 year olds. Even according to the most basics, non-partisan texts that your doctor has on suicide in kids ( the one in front of me right now) acknowledges the risks of owning a firearm for your kids: quote:Access to firearms increases the risk of completed suicide [11,110-112]. Firearms are used in almost two-thirds of fatal suicides in the United States [76], where the rate of firearm-related suicide is nearly 11 times greater than the pooled rate from other industrialized countries (0.32 versus 0.03) [113]. In a case-control study of adolescent suicide, guns were twice as likely to be present in the homes of suicide victims as attempters or psychiatric controls (adjusted odds ratio 2.1, 95% CI 1.2-3.7 and 2.2, 95% CI 1.4-3.5 for attempters and controls, respectively) [11]. In another study comparing suicide rates among adolescents (14 to 20 years) from states with and without various types of firearm legislation, a modest decrease (8.3 percent) in suicide rates among 14- to 17-year old children was found in the states with child access prevention laws (5.97 per 100,000 population versus the projected 6.51 per 100,000 population) [114]. Prevention of firearm injuries is discussed in detail separately. (See "Firearm injuries in children: Prevention", section on 'Prevention of firearm injuries'.)
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Oct 15, 2015 02:03
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stealie72 posted:Hey can you throw me a link to the calcular you used for that? Does it also calculate for .45 and 7.62mm? If not, i can probably do it by hand. That's just what Lanza brought with him. And no kids don't wear body armor nor do they have the constitution of Michael Brown, so 7.62 or .45 wouldn't make much more of a difference.
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Oct 15, 2015 02:03
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Tezzor posted:That is of course not at all what that post means. Gun fanboys can't even understand simple sentences given infinite time and optimal conditions and yet they expect us to allow them to make life or death decisions under pressure. What you said was perfectly clear: If he's white, then he understands enough to know he's wrong and he's lying. If he's not white, then he doesn't know enough to know that he's wrong. white = not ignorant, not white = ignorant. It may seem like you're being misinterpreted, but that's just because you're gauging your own words while operating from the a priori (and thus far unjustified) position that you are not a racist. Fang fucked around with this message at 02:06 on Oct 15, 2015 |
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Oct 15, 2015 02:04
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Silly Fang, only Republicans can be racist. All the colleges these days say so, after all!
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Oct 15, 2015 02:04
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Fang posted:What you said was perfectly clear: If he's white, then he understands enough to know he's wrong and he's lying. If he's not white, then he doesn't know enough to know that he's wrong. white = not ignorant, not white = ignorant. It may seem like you're being misinterpreted, but that's just because you're gauging your own words while operating from the a priori (and thus far unjustified position) that you are not a racist. No no. In either event, he's ignorant, as is evidenced by his posts. He might be lying about being not white. If he's ignorant and white, I don't care. If he's ignorant and not white, that's a sad failing of our educational system I care about. Also, the person you just shot in the dark is your roommate, and not a rape crazed prowler. Whoops! Tezzor fucked around with this message at 02:08 on Oct 15, 2015 |
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Oct 15, 2015 02:05
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IAMNOTADOCTOR posted:Yeah only the son committed suicide, the reason I posted wife/son is because in this case it could have easily been both of them. This was not to confuse you, but to illustrate how hard it is to identify those at risk as a parent / spouse. Nearly 30% of teenagers have had ideation's about suicide if i recall correctly. Similarly, every spouse of a depressed and suicidal person I've ever talked to was surprised. These are often not neglectful adults, its more a result of the hopelessness, the unwillingness to communicate your feelings and the fear of ridicule that are a part of depression/suicide. This part should definitely be addressed as well. Japan and Korea have a suicide rate multiple times that of the USA and without guns at all. Are there any programs in place to reduce that number? Could they be implemented here? Also PM me an avatar picture and I'll buy it for you. You seem like an alright guy. Lemming posted:He could also have not had a gun in the house. No risk and all of the upside. No one's forcing you to have a gun, so yeah that is an option.
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Oct 15, 2015 02:06
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Tezzor posted:Also, the person you just shot in the dark is your roommate, and not a rape crazed prowler. Whoops!
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Oct 15, 2015 02:10
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various cheeses posted:
TBH I'd go for UBC if its coupled with mandatory gun ownership for everyone who passes.
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Oct 15, 2015 02:10
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JohnGalt posted:TBH I'd go for UBC if its coupled with mandatory gun ownership for everyone who passes. I'm still catching up on the thread. Did we talk about Switzerland yet?
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Oct 15, 2015 02:13
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stealie72 posted:I'm still catching up on the thread. Did we talk about Switzerland yet? They regulate ammunition
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Oct 15, 2015 02:14
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IAMNOTADOCTOR posted:I appreciate that you think that, it feels logically consistent but is not true. Restricting the amount of Tylenol per bottle has helped tremendously with suicide and even the weak and unenforced fire arm storage laws we have now in ~18 states are effective in reducing suicide in 14-19 year olds. Regarding amount of Tylenol per bottle, I'd like to see a study that supports what you're saying. You can absolutely still buy tubs of Tylenol even as a minor, so the availability of large quantities in a single place hasn't changed. As for the "weak and unenforced" firearm storage laws being effective in reducing suicide, quote:In another study comparing suicide rates among adolescents (14 to 20 years) from states with and without various types of firearm legislation, a modest decrease (8.3 percent) in suicide rates among 14- to 17-year old children was found in the states with child access prevention laws (5.97 per 100,000 population versus the projected 6.51 per 100,000 population) [114] I would have to read the study to know for sure but there is no mention of controlling other variables in that sentence. It just so happens that in our country, the states with child access prevention laws are wealthier and more populated, two things inversely correlated with suicide rates. edit: please post the link to the full study, I'd be interested to see if it holds water. Marvin K. Mooney fucked around with this message at 02:17 on Oct 15, 2015 |
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Oct 15, 2015 02:14
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Job Truniht posted:They regulate ammunition Ammo provided by the military must be kept in the armory, privately purchased ammunition may be kept in the home.
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Oct 15, 2015 02:16
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bidikyoopi posted:Regarding amount of Tylenol per bottle, I'd like to see a study that supports what you're saying. You can absolutely still buy tubs of Tylenol even as a minor, so the availability of large quantities in a single place hasn't changed. As for the "weak and unenforced" firearm storage laws being effective in reducing suicide, South Korea has recently put restrictions on a pesticide that used to be used frequently in suicides with a high success rate: http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBRE98T05R20130930 quote:But a decade after Jang's brush with death, a ban on fatal pesticides is credited with cutting the number of suicides by 11 percent last year, the first drop in six years. The government restricted production of Gramoxone, a herbicide linked to suicides, in 2011 and outlawed its sale and storage last year. This is from 2013. Here's a link to the study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4452788/ Restrictions on firearms would save lives.
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Oct 15, 2015 02:20
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Tezzor posted:No no. In either event, he's ignorant, as is evidenced by his posts. He might be lying about being not white. If he's ignorant and white, I don't care. If he's ignorant and not white, that's a sad failing of our educational system I care about. Also, the person you just shot in the dark is your roommate, and not a rape crazed prowler. Whoops! You said: Tezzor posted:...I would hope you are a white dude who is lying because the alternative is that I am face to face with our country's shameful failure to educate minorities and that would be very sad. Emphasis mine, racism yours. Trying to rephrase after the fact as just not caring about white people being ignorant is a funny way to present yourself as non-racist. When your defense against accusations of racism is itself racist, then perhaps it's time to admit to having a problem and stop accusing others of racism in an attempt to prove how not-racist you are.
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Oct 15, 2015 02:20
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various cheeses posted:This part should definitely be addressed as well. Japan and Korea have a suicide rate multiple times that of the USA and without guns at all. Are there any programs in place to reduce that number? Could they be implemented here? Thanks for the offer, make its something cool or horrible that you have on your computer right now and I'll honestly feel special al week. Its absolutely true that the often flaunted " mental healthcare" improvements are also very important and not something to be underestimated. The question is though, which is more cost effective? In monetary value, gun laws are extremely cost effective, as I have previously very crudely shown. There is already a lot of work being done in mental health and although the cost effectiveness is probably way better than what is found in cancer treatment (partially my fault) its going to be tough to be more monetary cost effective than gun regulation. The other cost effectiveness is based on your perception of impingement on the freedom and quality of life of those that enjoy guns. I personally weigh the loss in hobby related quality of life as less than the loss in death, mutilation and maiming associated quality of life. This is of course something we can easily disagree on. I for instance weigh the quality of life that cars bring to the population over the loss in quality of life of those that are killed, maimed or mutilated by car accidents. IAMNOTADOCTOR fucked around with this message at 02:40 on Oct 15, 2015 |
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Oct 15, 2015 02:20
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various cheeses posted:Ammo provided by the military must be kept in the armory, privately purchased ammunition may be kept in the home. They still have very hefty regulation and registration laws.
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Oct 15, 2015 02:22
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Fang posted:No, I don't subscribe to the sort of anarchist paradise you're advocating here. Some regulation is justified. I just try to avoid regulation which is just noun replacement away from something that would be abhorrent.
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Oct 15, 2015 02:25
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JT Jag posted:Cooking millions of cakes in ovens is just as great an atrocity as the holocaust, apparent. If people could see past the frosting to the atrocity that lies beneath, we could start to effect some real change.
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Oct 15, 2015 02:27
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JT Jag posted:Cooking millions of cakes in ovens is just as great an atrocity as the holocaust, apparently. Only if they're Kosher
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Oct 15, 2015 02:27
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Lemming posted:South Korea has recently put restrictions on a pesticide that used to be used frequently in suicides with a high success rate: http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBRE98T05R20130930 South Korea is not the USA. Especially with regards to suicide, I would be cautious to compare a nation of 50mil with 27.3/100k suicide to a nation of 320mil with 12.1/100k suicides. Any regulations regarding access to methods of suicide in SK would be hard to relate to parallel US regulations. If your goal is really to save lives, and in this context, specifically suicidal youths, there are proven methods that are cheap, easy to implement, and do not tread on civil rights.
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Oct 15, 2015 02:30
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bidikyoopi posted:South Korea is not the USA. Especially with regards to suicide, I would be cautious to compare a nation of 50mil with 27.3/100k suicide to a nation of 320mil with 12.1/100k suicides. Any regulations regarding access to methods of suicide in SK would be hard to relate to parallel US regulations. How the hell is it treading on civil rights to impose basic restrictions?
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Oct 15, 2015 02:31
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CommieGIR posted:How the hell is it treading on civil rights to impose basic restrictions? Yeah, why shouldn't I have to show my literacy certification card to vote.
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Oct 15, 2015 02:35
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CommieGIR posted:How the hell is it treading on civil rights to impose basic restrictions? I think he meant that restrictions on civil rights constitute treading on civil rights.
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Oct 15, 2015 02:37
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stealie72 posted:Yeah, why shouldn't I have to show my literacy certification card to vote. Owning lethal metal toys is not a civil right pal.
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Oct 15, 2015 02:37
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stealie72 posted:Yeah, why shouldn't I have to show my literacy certification card to vote. Holy poo poo goal posts are mobile. Not even close to the same thing.
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Oct 15, 2015 02:38
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stealie72 posted:Yeah, why shouldn't I have to show my literacy certification card to vote.
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Oct 15, 2015 02:38
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bidikyoopi posted:Regarding amount of Tylenol per bottle, I'd like to see a study that supports what you're saying. You can absolutely still buy tubs of Tylenol even as a minor, so the availability of large quantities in a single place hasn't changed. As for the "weak and unenforced" firearm storage laws being effective in reducing suicide, Sure no problem, have both. Gun regulation: http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=199194 I'll warn you though, even if you find minor issues with the paper I will not easily swayed. My reading of the (public) health literature on firearms shows a large consensus on their effects. I'm nevertheless interested in your opinion though as I'm not an expert in this field at all. The Tylenol study is related to the UK but the evidence for the effectiveness of restriction of access to the means of suicide are global and mostly non-controversial. This is the first paper I found on tylenol, note the always present demand for more research: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17536874 For a general overview, have a lancet paper that I haven't actually read myself: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22726520
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Oct 15, 2015 02:38
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Tezzor posted:Gun otaku often say that, but I'm not sure how much it is factually true and how much it of it is just a convenient thing to fit into their narrative. Whatever the case, the origins of the birth control movement in America were eugenicists attempting to exterminate the unfit. What matters isn't the origins of something, but rather if it is a good idea in its current form. More specifically, the fact that there were some explicitly racist gun control measures in the past does not make the statement "gun nuts are insane racists at levels far beyond the norm" an inaccurate statement. I thought the origins of something were very tightly tied to how said thing should be handled. If we accept that guns are bad because they were initially created for the purpose of killing, we must also accept that gun control in america is racist because it was initially created for the purpose of keeping guns out of the hand of minorities. I personally accept that things change and therefore believe their origin shouldn't be relevant. You, however, disagree with me on this from what i recall. So should we judge things by what they were or what they are?
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Oct 15, 2015 02:39
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IAMNOTADOCTOR posted:
Please show this again since I find this hard to believe. Perhaps they are cost effective compared to antibody drug conjugates or whatever cutting edge cancer therapies there are, but in general gun laws throw money and political capital into a pit with little or nothing to show for it. In terms of cost-effective legislature, gun control laws are down there among the worst. IAMNOTADOCTOR posted:
I'm glad you've made that decision but in general the US doesn't base who has the right to what on a collected sense of quality of life.
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Oct 15, 2015 02:39
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JT Jag posted:So I guess comparing basic gun registration to the poll tax is the new go to for you guys? You're the second person to bring it up. Oh, poo poo. Sorry. Our local NRA rep said we were supposed to coordinate with each other to avoid this faux pas, but clearly I didn't. How embarrassing.
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Oct 15, 2015 02:39
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CommieGIR posted:How the hell is it treading on civil rights to impose basic restrictions? Go ahead and define "basic restrictions" for me, Mr. Mobile Goalposts.
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Oct 15, 2015 02:40
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CommieGIR posted:Holy poo poo goal posts are mobile. Yeah, I know. I'm just loving with you guys. There's nothing about the right to bear arms anywhere in the country's founding document or anything.
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Oct 15, 2015 02:41
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stealie72 posted:Yeah, I know. I'm just loving with you guys. There's nothing about the right to bear arms anywhere in the country's founding document or anything. Not all rights are civil rights.
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Oct 15, 2015 02:42
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