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Leperflesh posted:The fact that this is a diceless co-op miniatures game really has me intrigued. It is pricey, but not extravagantly so given you get 30 minis. I really liked the way the skirmish combat demo video went. $80 seems okay. I'd rather have seen maybe $70. I'm gonna watch and see if unlocks produce a little more value in the base game. Made by Mercs and Stoic both of which are the creators of games that are kinda meh, and the minis are there to jack up the price point in my opinion. As someone who kickstarted both Myth and Banner Saga, PASS
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Nov 12, 2015 22:39
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Banner Saga would've been pretty cool if the combat wasn't what it was.
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Nov 12, 2015 22:52
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Woke up this morning to read an insane screed of an update from Goodman Games basically calling 4th Edition D&D the devil, a massive failure, and revealing that he's secretly put art in the DCC books of cultists burning D&D 4th edition sourcebooks. To be fair he said he was GOING to do this, but didn't partially because he was talked out of it by the artist, and in retrospect he's glad he didn't, because no matter what happened, DCC is more than a reaction to 4e. alg posted:I was a bit surprised by his rant but I am not nearly dedicated to 4E enough to let someone's harmless opinion about a game affect my enjoyment of a fun game they produced. Yeah, Goodman definitely tried to make a go at publishing 4e products - but from what I can tell it was a disaster for them. I think that's part of why their 5e support is so thin. Maybe I'm cutting them too much slack but I'm definitely taking this post as Goodman's reaction to 4e as a publisher, and him honestly revealing something about the game's past. WaywardWoodwose posted:I know more than a few guys who hate 4E because they got tired of getting their rear end chewed on forums for "playing such lovely trash games when fourth edition exists". Definitely - I know people who resent other games like Dungeon World for this reason too. Honestly, edition warring is stupid from all sides.
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Nov 13, 2015 00:02
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My game is more than a reaction to 4e and that's why I'm still bitching about it years later in a kickstarter update
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Nov 13, 2015 00:18
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Solemn Sloth posted:My game is more than a reaction to 4e and that's why I'm still bitching about it years later in a kickstarter update He really isn't though, he's just sharing an anecdote about the creation of DCC and the frontispiece in question, since they've expanded it. Yeah, that anecdote involves wrongthink about 4e, which of course he has no personal reason for disliking, since it's not like his company had any bad experiences with publishing it. I say this as someone who likes 4e a lot BTW.
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Nov 13, 2015 00:20
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I think if your "anecdote" shows you to be a weirdo who fantasizes about working book-burnings into your game logo you should probably keep that under your hat. Also, you know, pretending that 4th Edition cast a "long shadow" when the only thing it did was inspire a gigantic counter-reactionary movement that has long since eclipsed any "damage" it did to the marketplace. 4th Edition is basically the Hippy Movement of RPGs: Something very visible to inspire people to consider something new but only really succeeding in pissing off a bunch of uptight white guys so badly that they vocally dragged the entire culture back toward some half-remembered ideal that never really existed.
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Nov 13, 2015 00:39
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Lightning Lord posted:To be fair he said he was GOING to do this, but didn't partially because he was talked out of it by the artist, and in retrospect he's glad he didn't, because no matter what happened, DCC is more than a reaction to 4e. Because it was too difficult for the artist to portray individual pages of the 4E PHB fluttering upwards in the bonfire into which it had been cast we decided on something slightly different, furthermore quote:Definitely - I know people who resent other games like Dungeon World for this reason too. Honestly, edition warring is stupid from all sides. It sure is, which is why I'm diverting my pledge that was going to DCC to someone who can pitch me their game while keeping the urge to take potshots at other games to themselves.
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Nov 13, 2015 00:55
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BTW I would be saying the same thing if he said he wanted to burn Pathfinder books or that FATE had cast a long shadow over the industry or made up facts about Dungeon World failing spectacularly. Kickstarter updates should keep me enthusiastic about the project, not make me think "this guy sounds like that loving jerkass at the gaming store that I don't like."
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Nov 13, 2015 00:58
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I want the games I buy to be made by people who can think clearly and rationally about game design options. Even if such a person didn't like a given game, their position or opinion about it should at least sound like it was based on some kind of thoughtful rules analysis or mechanics deconstruction or even just an opinion about preferred flavor. So basically, going off like that tells me "this person maybe writes rules from the gut, or doesn't have a broad experience with different rulesets and their advantages & disadvantages" and that is a warning sign. Leaving that aside, there is also just the "poor marketing skills being displayed" which is endemic in this industry. It's more forgivable I think, because a lot of people running kickstarters just don't have a lot of experience with customer relations... but put it on top of the above, and it's just ugly. A game written by a grognard overly invested in edition warring who also doesn't realize that carrying on edition wars in your marketing material is a really bad idea? No thanks. signalnoise posted:Made by Mercs and Stoic both of which are the creators of games that are kinda meh, and the minis are there to jack up the price point in my opinion. Ah, thanks for the warning then.
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Nov 13, 2015 01:07
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:BTW I would be saying the same thing if he said he wanted to burn Pathfinder books or that FATE had cast a long shadow over the industry or made up facts about Dungeon World failing spectacularly. Kickstarter updates should keep me enthusiastic about the project, not make me think "this guy sounds like that loving jerkass at the gaming store that I don't like." Yeah exactly. The guy could be talking about BloodPOUCH or whatever and it'd still be off-putting.
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Nov 13, 2015 01:10
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:I think if your "anecdote" shows you to be a weirdo who fantasizes about working book-burnings into your game logo you should probably keep that under your hat. Also, you know, pretending that 4th Edition cast a "long shadow" when the only thing it did was inspire a gigantic counter-reactionary movement that has long since eclipsed any "damage" it did to the marketplace. Look, I think this update is bad myself. But I think armchair diagnosing Goodman based on something so frivolous is silly. Kai Tave posted:It sure is, which is why I'm diverting my pledge that was going to DCC to someone who can pitch me their game while keeping the urge to take potshots at other games to themselves. That's fair, and it's your money, and I don't care what you do with it. Really, I'm against taking potshots at other things to boost your own creation or movement or whatever. I still find alternative cartoonists who try to establish their cred by making GBS threads on mainstream comics to be excruciating. All those overwrought intros for Sandman trades from like 1994 where it was talked up as the only intelligent comic ever written are painful to read. I guess I'm just objecting to the armchair diagnosis really.
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Nov 13, 2015 01:34
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At gamehole con this year the D&D 5th room was more full than the Pathfinder society room. Last year Pathfinder was more full than D&D. I have no idea what that means, but there you go?
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Nov 13, 2015 01:44
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Lightning Lord posted:Look, I think this update is bad myself. But I think armchair diagnosing Goodman based on something so frivolous is silly. I don't know Goodman from Adam and I have no interest in psychoanalyzing the guy. Where I'm coming from is that for years ever since the OSR became a thing I had the knee jerk impression after being exposed to several of its more outspoken members that it was nothing but a club for grognardy assholes to bitch about games they didn't like and the sorry state of the hobby etc. etc. People here and elsewhere have suggested to me that this isn't a fair assessment, that these sorts of folks aren't really representative of the OSR, that they're just a vocal minority and the real OSR is all about cool dudes who enjoy old-school games and like to have fun. DCC was sold to me on that basis, that it wasn't just another paper-thin retread of the same old thing yet again written by someone more interested in grinding his axe than making a good game, that it was an example of the TRUE OSR in action. And then I get this in my inbox, and all I can think is that maybe I should have just stuck with my kneejerk impression after all.
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Nov 13, 2015 02:03
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Its the first time I've heard about 4E since I started reading DCC stuff last year. Most of the DCC material is about having gnarly adventures as bong wizards. That update was fairly surprising. 4E must have really been a pain in the rear end for third party publishers.
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Nov 13, 2015 02:19
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alg posted:That update was fairly surprising. 4E must have really been a pain in the rear end for third party publishers.
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Nov 13, 2015 02:24
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Also more offensive was every piece of poo poo feeling the need to gloat about 4Es "failure" in the comments
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Nov 13, 2015 02:26
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Lightning Lord posted:Look, I think this update is bad myself. But I think armchair diagnosing Goodman based on something so frivolous is silly. The problem is that the connotation of book-burning is extremely unequivocal. The guy talks about burning 4E books, no armchair diagnosis needs to be done, it is already a pretty loving clear statement. And people don't get a pass because they're nerds. It's about time we started treating RPG publishers like grownups; the industry only stands to benefit from it. If, for instance, someone gave a public interview revealing that a background detail in a Guardians of the Galaxy movie poster was supposed to be aliens burning DVDs of The Phantom Menace, that would be a huge deal. But yeah, in other news, I'm seriously thinking about going full $39 PDF tier on Shinobigami. The game being tightly structured around one-shots is super attractive to me, and I like this skill system where a character can specialize in Use Rope and still be a useful badass.
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Nov 13, 2015 02:47
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No kickstarter campaign has generated even a tenth of the revenue of 4th edition D&D, yeah. I guess they're all failures.
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Nov 13, 2015 02:49
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Cyphoderus posted:The problem is that the connotation of book-burning is extremely unequivocal. The guy talks about burning 4E books, no armchair diagnosis needs to be done, it is already a pretty loving clear statement. This also calls to mind the incident where 4e books were literally subjected to a book burning.
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Nov 13, 2015 03:08
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alg posted:Also more offensive was every piece of poo poo feeling the need to gloat about 4Es "failure" in the comments Sure, but are you telling me this isn't the response Goodman was hoping for when he posted his little essay? Because the fact that the backer comments lean overwhelmingly towards a mixture of "this isn't edition warring it's just telling it like it is" and "haha yeah I bet 4E burns real good" makes me think that this is working as intended. And it's part of what put me off my pledge, this look into DCC's fan base. If someone invites me to play some DCC promising me that it'll be fun and rad and chill and I let it slip that I like 4E, am I gonna get treated to a rant about how Warlords can't melt steel beams by shouting at them? Because it kind of seems that way now.
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Nov 13, 2015 03:22
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I don't really know. I don't play games with meetups and I don't really care whether you back it or not.  I think as a whole the people who play public RPGs are pretty toxic, no matter the game.
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Nov 13, 2015 03:31
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dwarf74 posted:Link?
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Nov 13, 2015 03:37
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alg posted:I think as a whole the people who play public RPGs are pretty toxic, no matter the game. Nah. I can assure you that everyone who plays Strike! is good and cool. Anyway, I wasn't going to back DCC, so none of this matters to me, but it reminds me of the stern disapproval I got when one of the playtester quotes in my KS had some extremely mild snark about Burning Wheel. Imagine if I had let some of my true opinions about bad games come out there! Yeesh. I love it here because we all feel pretty free to dump on games we think are bad without anyone taking it too personally most of the time. Everywhere else I stick to the old rule: "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything." Oh, and for all the rants and negativity here, I don't see people wanting to burn anyone's books.
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Nov 13, 2015 04:23
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It's not so much that people shouldn't slag on games; it's the idea that you can't do that and really be a "professional" game writer/designer/publisher/whatever. It's like how companies have social media policies that say that you can't identify the company you work for when you post, because like it or not you become a representative for that company. When Jimbozig the rando forum poster says "hey, <GAME> is pretty lovely, ammirite?", that's different from when Jimbozig the game publisher says "hey, <GAME> is pretty lovely, ammirite?" because the later is either alienating part of his potential audience or looks like he's cashing in on edition warring/game hate. e: it's why Mikan stopped posting in g.txt when she started designing games, for instance.
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Nov 13, 2015 04:31
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Jimbozig posted:Nah. I can assure you that everyone who plays Strike! is good and cool. Fwiw even though I declined to back Strike! initially based on my impressions at the time I've since bought it post-KS, and I think you handled that situation the right way even though it probably wouldn't have made that much of a fuss in the long run.
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Nov 13, 2015 04:56
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Kai Tave posted:Sure, but are you telling me this isn't the response Goodman was hoping for when he posted his little essay? Because the fact that the backer comments lean overwhelmingly towards a mixture of "this isn't edition warring it's just telling it like it is" and "haha yeah I bet 4E burns real good" makes me think that this is working as intended. And it's part of what put me off my pledge, this look into DCC's fan base. If someone invites me to play some DCC promising me that it'll be fun and rad and chill and I let it slip that I like 4E, am I gonna get treated to a rant about how Warlords can't melt steel beams by shouting at them? Because it kind of seems that way now. That was probably his objective - that it's actually a piece of marketing for him to go off on 4e like that and develop some sort of OSR cred.
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Nov 13, 2015 05:40
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signalnoise posted:Made by Mercs and Stoic both of which are the creators of games that are kinda meh, and the minis are there to jack up the price point in my opinion. I think I have a higher opinion of Myth (initial rules problems aside) and Banner Saga than you do, but I'm probably also going to pass because a) I'm already invested in two pricey minis games from Mercs and I don't really need a third, and b) neither Mercs: Recon nor Myth: Journeyman have actually shipped yet. Recon is supposedly pretty close, and Journeyman will be shipping the 2.0 base game materials in the next couple weeks, but at this moment neither has fulfilled a goddamn thing. I dunno. I get that there are development cycles, that production overseas can have unavoidable delays, and I don't actually think that they're going to take the money and run - they certainly did eventually ship all of Myth, for better or worse. But I do think it's tacky to have launched Warbands now. (Plus I've already dumped too much money lately on things like Delta Green and Scythe.)
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Nov 13, 2015 06:47
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gradenko_2000 posted:That was probably his objective - that it's actually a piece of marketing for him to go off on 4e like that and develop some sort of OSR cred. If so it seems pointless in addition to petty. DCC isn't some Johnny-come-lately to the OSR scene, this is their 4th printing after all. He should be well past the need to fly the "4E sucks lol" flag to rally the troops. Plus, I mean, he's already made like $150K by this point so it seems like a bizarre interjection to stick in the middle of everything, but hey, what do I know.
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Nov 13, 2015 07:04
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I'm still working out how somebody develops a new product called Dungeon Crawl Classics. It can't be classic if you just wrote it! 
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Nov 13, 2015 09:23
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Alien Rope Burn posted:I'm still working out how somebody develops a new product called Dungeon Crawl Classics. It can't be classic if you just wrote it!
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Nov 13, 2015 11:11
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Alien Rope Burn posted:I'm still working out how somebody develops a new product called Dungeon Crawl Classics. It can't be classic if you just wrote it! Technically it was the name of a line of old school style modules for, I think, 3.5 before the RPG was contemplated. So they were just taking advantage of a brand they had already established.
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Nov 13, 2015 11:39
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thefakenews posted:Technically it was the name of a line of old school style modules for, I think, 3.5 before the RPG was contemplated. So they were just taking advantage of a brand they had already established. Yup. Goodman Games produced a line of 3.5e modules that were in the vein of old-school dungeon crawls with a more "gonzo" theme and feel than the "serious fantasy" that the genre was in by the early 00s. Not that I'm making excuses or anything, but that's probably why 4e is more, I guess, personal? for them. Like Paizo, they were churning out quite a bit of third-party 3.5e material, and then 4e comes along and it's a much more restrictive license and they didn't make Pathfinder so welp. They did try their hand at producing material for 4e, but I don't know how successful they were at it. In a way, DCC was their attempt at making their own not-D&D that they can keep publishing modules for.
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Nov 13, 2015 12:29
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Lightning Lord posted:Look, I think this update is bad myself. But I think armchair diagnosing Goodman based on something so frivolous is silly.
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Nov 13, 2015 14:18
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gradenko_2000 posted:They did try their hand at producing material for 4e, but I don't know how successful they were at it.
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Nov 13, 2015 14:51
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Lightning Lord posted:Look, I think this update is bad myself. But I think armchair diagnosing Goodman based on something so frivolous is silly. Let me set you straight here: there's absolutely nothing frivolous about saying "I want to burn books that I don't like", even if those books are about magical dragon adventures. I take that very seriously, as any American should. You're also misusing "armchair diagnosing" but w/e. I would prefer you not try to minimize weird censorship fantasies in Kickstarter updates.
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Nov 13, 2015 17:06
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I wonder whether people would still see it as good-natured joking if he'd wanted the artist to depict American flags being burned.
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Nov 13, 2015 17:11
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homullus posted:I wonder whether people would still see it as good-natured joking if he'd wanted the artist to depict American flags being burned. I'm sure the reaction would also be notably different if it was some dude making a 4E retroclone talking about the secret art easter eggs where copies of 3E or Pathfinder or Insert Retroclone Here were getting tossed into a bonfire (which for the record I would.be just as offput by).
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Nov 13, 2015 17:29
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homullus posted:I wonder whether people would still see it as good-natured joking if he'd wanted the artist to depict American flags being burned. This forum makes 9/11 Steel Beams/Merica jokes all the time so maybe?
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Nov 13, 2015 17:57
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Yeah, if the dude wants them to be burning 4E books it ain't that big of a deal. It's weird and offputting that he would reveal that for any reason, moreso that it was during his kickstarter. He should've probably kept it to himself. Who cares about burning anything? Just a waste of money imo.
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Nov 13, 2015 18:00
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mycot posted:This forum makes 9/11 Steel Beams/Merica jokes all the time so maybe? People here, yes. The people he knew was going to approve of 4e book burning, though?
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Nov 13, 2015 18:00
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