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gradenko_2000 posted:People here, yes. Steel Beams/Never Forget is an internet staple. You see it on freakin' Facebook, next to the Minions (there's probably a picture of Minions doing 9/11). I can't tell if you're understating the crassness of most jokes even "normal" people make or overstating the exceptionality of Something Awful (which hasn't been the front of offensiveness in years). mycot fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Nov 13, 2015 |
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Nov 13, 2015 18:02
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Go ahead and post a picture or video of you burning the flag on your Facebook account and tell us how that turns out. You've managed to equate dumb 9/11 shock gags with book burnings but there's no connection and you're going to find that out real quick. Edit: Not to mention the "steel beams" joke is a shot at conspiracy theorists. Megaman's Jockstrap fucked around with this message at 18:29 on Nov 13, 2015 |
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Nov 13, 2015 18:18
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Go ahead and post a flag burning video on your Facebook account and tell us how that turns out. You've managed to equate dumb 9/11 shock gags with book burnings but there's no connection and you're going to find that out real quick. I'm not the one who made the flag burning comparison, that was homullus. That's what I get for being page topper I guess. edit: Goons have probably already burned plenty of stuff on tape. mycot fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Nov 13, 2015 |
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Nov 13, 2015 18:20
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mycot posted:I'm not the one who made the flag burning comparison, that was homullus. That's what I get for being page topper I guess. You are arguing that, because people make 9/11 shock jokes and piss on conspiracy theories via catchphrase, they would be blase toward flag burning. That's an implicit comparison between the two. It was a poorly thought out, stupid thing to say. Drop it. Megaman's Jockstrap fucked around with this message at 18:29 on Nov 13, 2015 |
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Nov 13, 2015 18:24
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When did videos even come up anyway? Nothing actually physically got burned in the Kickstarter (unlike say the Pictures for Sad Children kickstarter), and I just brought up jokes about flag-burning. This is probably a sign that the conversation has derailed enough though.
mycot fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Nov 13, 2015 |
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Nov 13, 2015 18:25
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Shinobigami has an actual play from the One Shot podcast of Chicago. You can find it here. Haven't listened yet, but I trust the podcasters.
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Nov 13, 2015 18:39
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Because there's been at least one dude who did post his videos of ritually burning the 4E books and was super-smug about it.
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Nov 13, 2015 18:39
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mycot posted:This forum makes 9/11 Steel Beams/Merica jokes all the time so maybe? On the other hand, dragonfire can melt steel beams. (Unless they have at least level 6 Protection From Fire imbued, anyway.)
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Nov 13, 2015 18:47
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Covok posted:Shinobigami has an actual play from the One Shot podcast of Chicago. You can find it [url="https://"http://www.oneshotpodcast.com/one-shot/121-shinobigami-part-1/"]here.[/url] I listened to it today. It's just a first part, but I really enjoyed it. Each scene is set by one player, who can drag other characters into it. You have to pick between a drama and battle scene. The scene starts with rolling on a table and seeing where it's set, but the options are both broad and genre-appropriate – one of them is something like "it's so dark in here! Is this a dream, or is it the past?" Another one is "from up here, you can see the whole city." Once you know where the scene is going, you make one roll with the most appropriate skill and get one effect from this list: establishing a mechanical emotional bond between two characters, discovering someone's Location, or discovering someone's Secret. Once you have someone's Location, you can start a battle scene with them. Emotional bonds are taken from a random table, and you can choose a positive or a negative bond. One of the table's results, for instance, is either fanaticism (positive) or murderous intent (negative). Positive bonds means you give each other bonuses when you're in a scene together; negative bonds mean you give each other penalties. Any kind of bond at all means that the stuff you discover (secrets, locations, and something called ougi that they haven't gone into), the other person also knows. I'm curious to see how the system handles battle scenes, they haven't done one of those yet. Honestly? It looks super fun. It's very tightly structured around scenes and its outcomes, but I think that's the right way to do a game focused on one-shots. Those are some great players, it's made me want to listen to more of their stuff.
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Nov 13, 2015 18:50
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When you attempt to have a good time playin DCC roll 2d6+Grog. On a 10+ you end up playing it and the ghost of gygax smiles upon you. On. 7-9 you accidentally roll up characters for 4th edition and spend the night on one combat. On a 6 or less jet fuel melts steel beams.
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Nov 13, 2015 20:52
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Tekopo posted:If you are reacting like this to DCC, I can't even imagine how angry would have been at the release of Team Fortress Classic. Team Fortress Classic was at least based on something established and acclaimed, and three years may as well be thirty in the field of software development. (And now it really is classic by the true definition of the word, so that worked out.) But you can't have something be "classic" upon its initial release, DCC is trying to evoke something it isn't. Which describes much of the of the OSR, I suppose. To demonstrate something that really is classic, I got my Car Wars Arenas kickstarter in the other day. It is exactly as advertised, a bunch of paper maps to put cars on for fights. It also came with the Car Wars rerelease (yay), and Car Wars: the Card Game (meh). I have mixed feelings about the renaming of arenas for RL sponsors, it's a cute idea, but at the same time it takes away some of the flavorful names of the past. Well, I can still call them whatever I like, I suppose.
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Nov 13, 2015 22:58
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Wits & Wager, a trivia board game is up on Kickstarter and it is generating a noticeable amount of vitriol in the comments: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1923120194/an-epically-fun-party-game/comments I noticed it on a Facebook group about tabletop Kickstarters: https://www.facebook.com/groups/TabletopKickstarters/permalink/993610690699579/ I wonder how many of the complaints about the vampire art are because it's a hot shirtless guy vampire, not a lady vampire.
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Nov 14, 2015 00:47
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Let me set you straight here: there's absolutely nothing frivolous about saying "I want to burn books that I don't like", even if those books are about magical dragon adventures. I take that very seriously, as any American should. Didn't someone in the very beginning of the FATAL and Friends Megathread post pictures (or was it just talk about) her burning the Exalted: Infernals book?
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Nov 14, 2015 01:08
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Helical Nightmares posted:Didn't someone in the very beginning of the FATAL and Friends Megathread post pictures (or was it just talk about) her burning the Exalted: Infernals book? Like I said goons have burned a lot of things!
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Nov 14, 2015 01:38
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To be fair, if anything at all deserves to be burnt, it was Exalted: Infernals.
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Nov 14, 2015 01:52
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Kwyndig posted:To be fair, if anything at all deserves to be burnt, it was Exalted: Infernals. That does kinda refute the "I would react the same if they were burning copies of FATAL" argument earlier.
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Nov 14, 2015 02:37
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I think people are blowing the ethical implications way out of proportion. Taking a jab like that at 4e (and its fans) and talking about drawing 4e books being burnt is childish and irrelevant to the product being developed, and it's more than enough that I would reconsider my pledge to DCC (if I had ever considered pledging in the first place), not because it's inherently offensive in any way, but because I personally believe 4e had some great ideas, and any ire this guy has should be directed at WOTC for their business decisions, not at 4e or the people who might enjoy playing it. If enough people feel the same way, then it's a pretty questionable business decision.
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Nov 14, 2015 02:57
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mycot posted:That does kinda refute the "I would react the same if they were burning copies of FATAL" argument earlier. 
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Nov 14, 2015 03:03
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I think I'm just frustrated that all the goodwill built up towards DCC on here is like wiped away in one second, you know? I was thinking about running a PBP and like, what now it's "that game about burning 4e books"? Come on son, thanks a lot.Scyther posted:I think people are blowing the ethical implications way out of proportion. Taking a jab like that at 4e (and its fans) and talking about drawing 4e books being burnt is childish and irrelevant to the product being developed, and it's more than enough that I would reconsider my pledge to DCC (if I had ever considered pledging in the first place), not because it's inherently offensive in any way, but because I personally believe 4e had some great ideas, and any ire this guy has should be directed at WOTC for their business decisions, not at 4e or the people who might enjoy playing it. If enough people feel the same way, then it's a pretty questionable business decision. Yeah pretty much this. I mean I still maintain that it's not really a jab at 4e players so much a statement about Goodman's feelings over how 4e and the transition to it from the OGL hurt his business but whatever. I get that book burning is a charged thing (I'm Jewish after all) though, so I don't blame people who are incensed about this. It just sucks. How about the dude who burned a copy of Grant Morrison's Supergods and ate the ashes on a hamburger bun? And when called on it he responded that it was "a boozy, fun afternoon with my friends, something my critics wouldn't understand" gradenko_2000 posted:This also calls to mind the incident where 4e books were literally subjected to a book burning. What's worse is the dude who did that wrote a review about how one particular product was off-putting to newcomers because it dictated an extremely unforgiving style and was steeped in one-true-wayism. Like... no self awareness. Lightning Lord fucked around with this message at 04:15 on Nov 14, 2015 |
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Nov 14, 2015 04:11
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With all due respect to Goodman, if his 3E products are the ones I'm thinking of then while I can sympathize if the move to 4E made his life harder it wasn't like he was some shining precious jewel of game design unjustly cut down in his prime, and I find it hard to be completely sympathetic to someone whose sour grapes largely boil down to "WotC made it harder for me to ride on their coattails."
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Nov 14, 2015 04:24
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Burning game books also not a positive reference point for those of us who were playing during the Satanic ritual abuse panic of the 80s. I think the CEO publicly fantasizing about burning those wicked 4e books is a fair basis for questioning whether you want to back the game. I don't think he was joking, but I am on board with a lot of that ill will coming from the publishing environment he was in. I think I will still back it. homullus fucked around with this message at 04:33 on Nov 14, 2015 |
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Nov 14, 2015 04:29
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homullus posted:Burning game books also not a positive reference point for those of us who were playing during the Satanic ritual abuse panic of the 80s. Yeah the funny thing is a lot of old school people constantly still whine about the Satanic Panic too.
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Nov 14, 2015 04:32
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I was looking at DCC and found the gonzo artwork and style kind of endearing, and had it bookmarked as something to potentially back-- but I'll admit that little update soured me towards it, in a "this is really petulant" way rather than any loyalty to 4E, which I haven't played. On the brighter side, thank you thread for alerting me to Shinobigami. Thats something I'll definitely be backing. I don't know if I missed it, but did they list an expected timeframe for the PDF files? Dec 2016/2017 for the Core/Supplement I saw, but I wasn't sure if they would be releasing anything electronic perhaps earlier.
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Nov 14, 2015 04:53
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Gravy Train Robber posted:On the brighter side, thank you thread for alerting me to Shinobigami. Thats something I'll definitely be backing. I don't know if I missed it, but did they list an expected timeframe for the PDF files? Dec 2016/2017 for the Core/Supplement I saw, but I wasn't sure if they would be releasing anything electronic perhaps earlier. Per their latest update on their stretch goals: * We will have the first full rules draft available to everyone in February.
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Nov 14, 2015 05:06
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Kai Tave posted:With all due respect to Goodman, if his 3E products are the ones I'm thinking of then while I can sympathize if the move to 4E made his life harder it wasn't like he was some shining precious jewel of game design unjustly cut down in his prime, and I find it hard to be completely sympathetic to someone whose sour grapes largely boil down to "WotC made it harder for me to ride on their coattails."
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Nov 14, 2015 05:20
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Yea like, DCC looks like a good game but it's not like Goodman was some shining member of the pantheon of great 3E writers, and yea the 4th ed stuff was rough. I honestly agree they did get kinda hosed by some kinda arcane rules, but I really don't think mean ol WotC was why their stuff didn't sell well.
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Nov 14, 2015 05:29
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Like sure, it sucks when a business of yours with margins that are no doubt already razor thin gets that much harder, but if Goodman is nursing that much of a grudge over the transition to 4E that he feels the need to crow about how it failed miserably while simultaneously casting a long shadow over the hobby then he needs to get over it already. Even before 4E came out it was clear that the market for more d20 glutware was at peak saturation. WotC deciding to continue to allow people to hitch their third-party wagons to them despite it being abundantly clear that the OGL as sold to them by Ryan Dancey had achieved none of its intended effects (despite the profusion of d20 source material being churned out by 3rd party publishers they clearly weren't just content to churn out the incidental poo poo that WotC couldn't be bothered to, and as the OSR would later go on to prove you don't need the OGL to "preserve D&D's legacy" against another TSR-esque implosion) probably wouldn't have been a return to the days of wine and roses for publishers like Goodman anyway.
Kai Tave fucked around with this message at 06:07 on Nov 14, 2015 |
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Nov 14, 2015 05:30
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I honestly just backed DCC about 10 min ago (the first gaming KS actually) after being reminded of it. Having only being into RPGs in the pre-Internet era all this backstory and grudges and poo poo is like trying to start watching a soap opera right in the middle of a season. No modern games have really caught my interest the way 1st Ed AD&D did and I do not have the time or really desire to relearn that mess of a system. DCC seemed like it would maybe come close to capturing the feel of what attracted me to RPGs in the first place. That and I kinda wanna be a bong wizard irl. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIw7oeZKpZc
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Nov 14, 2015 06:30
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bunnielab posted:DCC seemed like it would maybe come close to capturing the feel of what attracted me to RPGs in the first place. That and I kinda wanna be a bong wizard irl. Noice.
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Nov 14, 2015 08:13
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Has anybody bothered to look at the book burning picture? It's a fingernail sized guy in a two page ( one page in the original book ) spread. DCC has such a weird reputation here. In the OSR thread It's review for a year was just "HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH no", and a bunch of posts making GBS threads on it for it's Intro, and charts. I'm not sure what changed in between now and then, but by the end of the thread people were loving it. It sort of reminds me of the pathfinder thread, where in the beginning there were people bitching over their smartphone character sheet app with quotes like "Don't worry 1st world swine, only rich people will ever want to play our game. " " I doubt they could do anything with an app that would make the rest of us want to drop the cash on iphones." "iPhone Apps are another step on the predestined path of RPGs being squandered into the Model Train hobby ghetto. I'm sorry that fat fucks with a pirate goatee think that they are being at all "innovative" by making the game more and more dependent on mid-adult spending limits. " "This is just idiocy. The only way it would work is if they scrap the PF setting and retool lazer-focusing at Apple fanboys." and "iPhones are not things you hand to teenagers" WaywardWoodwose fucked around with this message at 15:18 on Nov 14, 2015 |
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Nov 14, 2015 15:15
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DCC actually seems really good at what it sets out to do, and it's perfectly fine if you like that sort of thing. I just find the appeal to tradition and the pretensions of legacy horrendously obnoxious. That being said, Wizards of the Coast really did gently caress things up with the GSL, so I'm not surprised by publishers still nursing a grudge over it. Whatever you think about 4e, the GSL was pretty awful and there's a reason barely anybody touched that poop.
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Nov 14, 2015 15:28
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DCC has a super groggy attitude but it's not displayed in its mechanics which are certainly old-school but which are anything but groggy.
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Nov 14, 2015 15:30
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WaywardWoodwose posted:Has anybody bothered to look at the book burning picture? It's a fingernail sized guy in a two page ( one page in the original book ) spread. I don't think anyone would have actually noticed if there was a tiny book that said "4" on fire, but the dude just had to go and make a big post about how 4e cast a shadow on the industry and now it's thankfully just a bad memory. I'm not sure what Pathfinder or phone apps has to do with this.
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Nov 14, 2015 15:38
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WaywardWoodwose posted:Has anybody bothered to look at the book burning picture? It's a fingernail sized guy in a two page ( one page in the original book ) spread. Have you read the update that started the discussion? The picture in question is the final result. Joe Goodman wanted modifications that made it clear it was 4e books being burned. The nature of the illustration meant he had Sophie's choice of having his company's product name looking superhugegrandiose or making his despisement of 4e clear. He chose the healthier of the two.
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Nov 14, 2015 15:39
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Yeah, that whole update hasn't soured me on the game DCC itself, just on giving its creator money. When a guy says 4E was "a bad phase we all went through" without any justification, and claims it was a "failure that cast a long shadow over the industry", he's implying that he doesn't think impartially about game design, and doesn't understand the industry. All this while putting a game he designed in the market. Then he proceeds to disturbingly fantasize about book burning, making sure we all knew what that fingernail-sized detail in the two-page spread represented. Maybe his game is pretty good after all, but all evidence points to this man being someone whose work I'm not willing to finance. Vote with your dollars, and all that. Cyphoderus fucked around with this message at 15:49 on Nov 14, 2015 |
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Nov 14, 2015 15:42
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Scyther posted:I'm not sure what Pathfinder or phone apps has to do with this. I was just comparing a thread on retroclones that went from hating DCC in the beginning to loving it in the end, to a thread that began with people saying a game shouldn't have smart phone support because those are luxury items no one has. I read the update, and while i don't agree with him, I'm also not surprised that a person would harbor really strong resentment against a company that he used to work with, but is now his competition. Just because he hates another game doesn't ruin DCC for me. I have a copy of it on my shelf next to D&D 3-5, Pathfinder, and a poo poo ton of other retro clones, and I'd still play any one of them today. I guess I just got burned out on edition wars when 3rd ed came out. He can hate 4th ed, I don't mind as long as I don't have to listen too long. I hate a lot of popular stuff too.
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Nov 14, 2015 16:27
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WaywardWoodwose posted:He can hate 4th ed, I don't mind as long as I don't have to listen too long. I hate a lot of popular stuff too. Cyphoderus posted:Yeah, that whole update hasn't soured me on the game DCC itself, just on giving its creator money. MadScientistWorking fucked around with this message at 16:56 on Nov 14, 2015 |
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Nov 14, 2015 16:54
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This seems neat. It's little door and window pieces you can glue onto, like tupperware or soemthing I guess, to turn it into a sci-fi building. Cheap and easy terrain. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/847163926/trash-bash-bits-part-two
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Nov 14, 2015 17:02
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I might not enjoy playing 4th edition D&D but I wouldn't begrudge anyone who did enjoy it, and I sure as hell hate edition wars more. Writing a message to your customers trying to start an edition war is not a sign of being a rationally-minded businessman and is a sign of being an idiot who wants to stir poo poo on the internet.
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Nov 14, 2015 17:23
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It took the Older D&D/Retroclone thread forever to get over DCC's groggy intro text because it set off all sorts of red flags about what kind of game DCC was supposed to be, and when your company is stuff like Lamentations of the Flame Princess, that sort of first impression tends to last. Yeah, DCC turned out to be one of the more innovative retroclones once people actually sat down and read/played the thing, but KS update just sort of validates that first impression that the designer has strong opinions about games that he really wants you to know about, so I can't blame anyone for at least feeling conflicted. Personally, I already own DCC from a charity bundle going to the RAINN foundation, so there's that, I guess. WaywardWoodwose posted:He can hate 4th ed, I don't mind as long as I don't have to listen too long. I hate a lot of popular stuff too. That's sort of the point, though. He can hate 4e all he wants, but as far as I'm concerned having to listen to it at all is already too long, because there's no reason for me to have to hear about how he feels towards 4e because there is like zero link between it and DCC. WaywardWoodwose posted:Has anybody bothered to look at the book burning picture? It's a fingernail sized guy in a two page ( one page in the original book ) spread. Keep in mind that it was only that small and insignificant because the artist couldn't make it work the way he originally wanted, and that we wouldn't ever have known if he hadn't decided to tell us.
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Nov 14, 2015 17:40
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