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Fargo Fukes posted:Because anyone who does WILL become a martyr, No they won't. This is such a stupid, bullshit, chicken little point. The only people who will try and martyr these retards are people that already support them. No one who isn't already deep in their camp is going to be the least bit swayed by one of these morons claiming to be a victim of tyranny from inside a cell where they loving belong. They will not become the Archduke Ferdinand of Civil War 2 because the people that want that to happen are to cowardly to ever make it happen. And any idiot conservative politician that wants to try and canonize one of these hicks is going to throw away any chance they have with moderate and undecided voters, so by all means I'll invite them to try. If nothing is done then the militias groups are going to parade this stuff around as a victory, which will do far more to win them support and embolden similar groups. If these people really want to be martyrs then I see nothing wrong with giving them their wish along with all the tear gas they can choke on.
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Jan 11, 2016 15:12
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CommieGIR posted:If you outlaw murder, only criminals will murde..... 
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Jan 11, 2016 15:13
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SocketWrench posted:Shitposting Keep pretending you didn't post stupid untrue bullshit and get called out on it kid. You are calling this a case of simple tresspassing/squatting (and using that term wrong). That is wrong, it was pointed out as being wrong, you did it again, and were called out on it again. Now you're trying to pretend I'm the one with a gimmick. SocketWrench posted:and if they get the nutters in there determined to shoot and actually try, then they've got the ok to roll in and plaster the place. How is this not contradictory in your mind? If there were a roadblock, why would the even more violent nutters get in? What is it about keeping the crazier people out of the situation that's causing so much confusion/contention here? At this point the blockade is more needed to keep people out of the situation than to keep the original guys blocked in.
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Jan 11, 2016 15:21
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Who What Now posted:No they won't. This is such a stupid, bullshit, chicken little point. The only people who will try and martyr these retards are people that already support them. No one who isn't already deep in their camp is going to be the least bit swayed by one of these morons claiming to be a victim of tyranny from inside a cell where they loving belong. They will not become the Archduke Ferdinand of Civil War 2 because the people that want that to happen are to cowardly to ever make it happen. And any idiot conservative politician that wants to try and canonize one of these hicks is going to throw away any chance they have with moderate and undecided voters, so by all means I'll invite them to try. Not much more to say here other than I think you're wildly overestimating the integrity of the rural racist conservative. Right now these guys aren't getting a lot of support because they look like idiots. They're infighting, they've made dumb statements on social media, they look and sound dumb on the news, their grand statement was to occupy a bird sanctuary in bumblefuck, nowhere and the brutal police state has barely shown up to say "no dont  ". It's difficult for anyone, however fringe, to come out with a stronger statement than "I agree with their ideals but not with their methods" because no-one wants to look like an idiot or be associated with an idiot.All that changes the moment someone dies. The story turns on its head and all the dumb snacks nonsense is overwritten in people's minds into the courageous struggle that Ammon and co have been selling it as. Right now it's okay to laugh (almost impossible to take seriously) because of how far this thing is from anyone getting seriously hurt, other than blowing their toes off with a concealed carry .44. People dying erases the humour, validates the cause, and enrages people who were well on the sidelines before. Which makes it easier for the next-most fringe person to try something more extreme next time, until they get shot, which makes it easier for the next person and on and on. If you could guarantee tear gas and prison it'd be different, but there's no way to do that. One of these guys will be dumb enough to pull a gun and start firing wildly, and once that happens someone is coming out in a body bag. And we'll never hear the end of it. Ammon & co will claim victory whatever happens, granted. But if "whatever happens" is them going home in a couple of months time to a lot of big talk, still no response to their demands, and a ten second spot on the local news, I think other groups will have to temper their desire to stick it to the government with the fear of looking like a bunch of whiny morons.
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Jan 11, 2016 15:38
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Crain posted:Keep pretending you didn't post stupid untrue bullshit and get called out on it kid. You are calling this a case of simple tresspassing/squatting (and using that term wrong). That is wrong, it was pointed out as being wrong, you did it again, and were called out on it again. Now you're trying to pretend I'm the one with a gimmick. Not quite, you just read what you want to and then come up with some bullshit exaggeration to equate it Case in point the rest of your shitfuck post quote:How is this not contradictory in your mind? If there were a roadblock, why would the even more violent nutters get in? What is it about keeping the crazier people out of the situation that's causing so much confusion/contention here? Because in reality there isn't a roadblock, dumbshit. Why should I base my response of what could or should or will happen based on something that doesn't loving exist? is there a roadblock? No Does it look like there will be one? Not in any forseeable future. "Why don't you want to stop the nutters from getting in!!!1111OMGONEEXTREMEQUESTIONMARK" It's not that I don't want to prevent them, but since there is no way outside of your sooper dooper FBI control powers to somehow telepathically force the feds to stop them, let them get there and infight all they want, it'll only fragment this bullshit further. I'm not sorry i'm not all "Roll in the tanks and the SWAT teams!" but I would rather avoid another black eye for the government and at the same time giving these types of fucks any type of rallying cry. I'd rather see it fall flat on its face and have the feds take care of it after when no one gives a poo poo about them. SocketWrench fucked around with this message at 15:58 on Jan 11, 2016 |
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Jan 11, 2016 15:51
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So what happens if a bunch of ranchers declare that they're accepting Ammon Bundy's Constitutionally Legitimate Transfer Of Land Back To We The People and start grazing all over the place and not paying their fees? Apparently the BLM is too impotent to make one guy pay up.
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Jan 11, 2016 16:02
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Luckily I think we still have a month or two before we have to worry about that. Unless they feel like grazing their cows on snow.
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Jan 11, 2016 16:09
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As a Millennial I posted:So what happens if a bunch of ranchers declare that they're accepting Ammon Bundy's Constitutionally Legitimate Transfer Of Land Back To We The People and start grazing all over the place and not paying their fees? Apparently the BLM is too impotent to make one guy pay up. Generally when the federal government thinks you owe it money that you won't pay up and it doesn't want to put you in jail, it doesn't just go to you for payment, it goes to the people who owe you money and takes it from them as well. It might also make it difficult to receive the federal assistance that every last one of them depends on.
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Jan 11, 2016 16:11
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SocketWrench posted:there is no way outside of your sooper dooper FBI control powers to somehow telepathically force the feds to stop them, let them get there and infight all they want, it'll only fragment this bullshit further. Or they could actually set up a roadblock? All at once you seem to: -Agree that there should be a road block -Say they shouldn't set up a road block -Are totally fine with the situation getting worse Look, I know you're probably super jaded from reading the freeper thread all the time where everyone is bluster and nothing to worry about. But these guys aren't the same as simple freeper users by simple virtue of having actually gone out and done something. My point of view on this right now is that some sort of presence needs to be shown now in order to make the public image of this kind of action not seem so "safe". The initial right wing political denouncement of this movement, in my opinion, is because most right wingers expected a harsh put down or for the Bundys to quickly get shut down, and no one wanted to be tied to that. But that didn't happen. The GOP already showed it's willingness to support these guys with the Cliven Bundy ranch standoff (up until he started being vocally racist). Presumably Ammon learned from that. That's what I'm worried about : the right wing narrative of the situation shifting enough that it becomes "safe" enough to show token support for it. And I'm not pulling all that out of thin air. I have a lot of deep woods, conservative relatives. I regularly go up to a family cabin, in the middle of nowhere WV, to hang out with these guys. Some of my cousins are already starting to say things similar to your "It's just a protest, they're just doing a sit in/squatting." and are voicing some support for the movement after initially calling them yahoos. And since it seems that the FBI isn't going to visibly do anything, I'm afraid that mentality is going to spread.
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Jan 11, 2016 16:13
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Crain posted:Yeah? And then that's on them. Yeah but it's pretty dumb to willingly put police officers in a high-risk low-reward scenario like that. And this isn't even considering the negatives of having 8-12 hour shifts in 20 degree weather inside a police car, with limited donuts/coffee. If wars really are won with logistics, then it does not make much sense to do this.
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Jan 11, 2016 16:16
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Ninkobei posted:Yeah but it's pretty dumb to willingly put police officers in a high-risk low-reward scenario like that. That's kind of their job. Law Enforcement are in the line of fire so that innocent members of the public aren't. And SocketWrench posted:let them get there and infight all they want Is a terrible idea. Letting the situation run out of control isn't a good gameplan.
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Jan 11, 2016 16:21
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General_Disturbed posted:The news media has mostly become lukewarm about the whole thing as the news cycle rolls on. You'll see them putting up an article about how the militia is begging for supplies, days late. That picture of stuff they are asking for was being passed around a couple of days ago and places like CNN are only just now writing on it. This seems like a good thing since in the national attention they are essentially being treated like jokes. The FBI is making them look like morons and handling this just fine. It's like some of you have never heard of a honeypot before.
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Jan 11, 2016 16:31
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Anosmoman posted:As long as they are in the media and have a platform to get their message out nationally they have zero incentive to leave, beyond personal finances. If the media starts ignoring them the math will change but that assumes they can't come up with a stunt to get attention back like taking down fences to allow patriot cows free reign of the traitor wildlife preserve. If the BLM can't properly enforce the grazing system they will have achieved the objectives they can realistically hope for whether local ranchers initially take advantage of it or not. It would give them a victory if not of substance then of PR value and a precedent for future, better prepared actions. As a Millennial I posted:So what happens if a bunch of ranchers declare that they're accepting Ammon Bundy's Constitutionally Legitimate Transfer Of Land Back To We The People and start grazing all over the place and not paying their fees? Apparently the BLM is too impotent to make one guy pay up. I don't know if the Bundy gang knows this but everyone in this thread should: this isn't BLM land. The BLM is not involved in this. The BLM blinked at the last Bundy standoff (BLM Director Neil Kornze is the one who made the decision to call off the agents) and if this were another confrontation with the BLM then they might do it again, but they aren't in this. I know that doesn't mean there won't be another failure of law enforcement here. I wouldn't be surprised if Kornze had been pressured from higher up to back down. But I do think that the fact this is an actual land grab and not a dispute over grazing fees makes it different enough from Bundy Standoff 1 that simple comparisons don't really apply.
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Jan 11, 2016 16:41
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Jarmak posted:Tampons are actually really good at quickly treating bullet wounds, it is possible they want them to prep for the coming last stand. They're just too embarrassed to be seen buying them. I think they avoided asking for pads because they didn't want to get swamped with memes about needing New Freedom so they can Stayfree.
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Jan 11, 2016 16:50
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Fargo Fukes posted:Not much more to say here other than I think you're wildly overestimating the integrity of the rural racist conservative. Right now these guys aren't getting a lot of support because they look like idiots. They're infighting, they've made dumb statements on social media, they look and sound dumb on the news, their grand statement was to occupy a bird sanctuary in bumblefuck, nowhere and the brutal police state has barely shown up to say "no dont Look, your argument is reasonable. Here's the trouble though. It sounds like things are already dangerous and getting moreso. If that last report is true then we've got armed, anti-government militia morons marching into town and directly attempting to intimidate both local law enforcement (where they've already threatened to kill the sheriff if he doesn't play their little rugged frontier fantasy cop role), and the feds that are there. They strolled right up to both full armed and nearly set off a confrontation entirely on their own. They've got children with them, probably also their wives, when a few of these assholes were the same ones at the Bundy Ranch straight up saying they would let their families get killed first--and honestly, why else do you think they've brought them in, other than to threaten the same thing? They turned away the 3%ers, but are apparently still having individuals roll in. For all the jokes about snacks, guess what, they've had a few weeks to stock up on all supplies they were too stupid to bring with them in the first place. I can still laugh at their dumb half frozen asses but this situation is no longer funny, guys. The more idiots with guns you get in there and the more dumbass stunts like that they pull, the higher the chances that someone, on either side (or some stupid townsperson being a Good Guy With a Gun) is going to start shooting, be it intentional or accident. They are literally terrorizing the town at this point, or do you think local law enforcement doesn't count as, you know, people who actually live there, that the entire community knows/is friends with/is related to. I'm not sure how many of you have lived in a small town. I used to live in one that looks like Metropolis compared to Burns, Oregon. These guys aren't just making threats to hang the sheriff and get into it with local police; they're threatening to hang Bill down the street and are trying to intimidate Bob and Joe next door into going along with their armed insurrection (and seriously, as laughable as you may find it, that's what it is now) with guns, at Bob and Joe and Dan's workplace. They're outsiders that came in without invitation and won't leave, so now not only is the school taken over by scary Federal government agent types, not only are these yahoos coming into town to get supplies, now they're outright trying to start a shootout in the middle of town. This is not just about a wildlife sanctuary anymore (and by the way, the people who work there are likely residents of Burns or other local areas as well, and these militants were calling at least one of them a symbol of everything they hate about the federal government -- that's funny when they're holed up in her office, miles and miles away, grouching about fish pun decorations, that's not funny when they're running around where she lives). People keep posting about how the feds shouldn't escalate the situation, but guys? They're escalating the situation all on their own. It's going to come down to either the Feds doing something, or the Feds pulling out, thus leaving Burns and the surrounding communities essentially in the hands of unstable, idiot rednecks with guns and no apparent qualms about enforcing their idiot redneck ideology if they can come up with a good enough reason for why it actually makes them heroes. The biggest mistake people seem to be making in this thread is assuming that unstable idiots with SovCit ideals and, in at least the case of the Bundy's, some kind of bizarre fringe religious mandate, are going to act rationally when not one drat thing they've done has been rational or well thought out, especially when they're getting reinforced by other wackos with guns as the situation goes on and literally nothing is being done to curtail their actions. All jokes aside, I don't want to see anyone die from this, militia, their families, feds, local law enforcement, Burns residents, ranchers...but all it takes is one itchy trigger finger or one misfire and bad things are going to happen no matter how much the Feds close their eyes and plug their ears, which is why no efforts to contain the situation is so loving stupid. Or, since this seems to be more important to those in charge than keeping people safe and un-terrorized, do you guys think that the optics are going to be any better for Democrats in an election year if something happens because no steps were taken?
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Jan 11, 2016 16:53
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Crain posted:That's kind of their job. Law Enforcement are in the line of fire so that innocent members of the public aren't. Well any speculation should be taken lightly, but if there were any violent confrontation it would lead to a significant number of deaths. Any plan that has a chance to reduce casualty rate should be plan A. Maybe as time goes an aggressive approach will be the better option
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Jan 11, 2016 16:57
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Crain posted:That's kind of their job. Law Enforcement are in the line of fire so that innocent members of the public aren't. no, law enforcement actually does pick and choose their battles all the time. if you're asking agents to attempt a raid, risking their lives, to make sure that we have full use of a bird watching area, you're actually a huge rear end in a top hat
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Jan 11, 2016 16:57
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Ok how about some reality land updates from Oreagon Live. Oregon standoff: Unsolicited help flocks to Burns to 'assist' law enforcement quote:Law enforcement officials are getting a lot of unsolicited help to end the ongoing armed occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge. Oregon standoff: Roseburg state legislator ignores local warnings, visits protesters quote:In the latest bizarre turn of events surrounding the ongoing armed occupation of a federal wildlife refuge, an Oregon state legislator from outside Harney County arrived here Saturday with out-of-state elected officials in tow and met with the protesters. Arrival of rifle-toting 'Patriots' breaks relative calm at Oregon standoff compound quote:Ammon Bundy and his band of militants appeared ready to settle in for the long haul Saturday when a rifle-toting "security detail" broke the relative lull that had fallen over their weeklong standoff at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge. So it seems that a lack of Law Enforcement presence is leading to people trying to solve the situation themselves, which is a great idea. Good thing not having any sort of law enforcement presence is the best idea ever and to think or suggest otherwise is shitposting about magic mind powers. Also elected officials are showing up to talk with the protesters and directly against the wishes of the FBI and local officials. Also according to ""Many of them said the same things back to us. ... These are honorable elected officials," Finicum said." it sounds like some of those officials might be supportive of these guys. Good thing that's not going to give them any legitimacy whatsoever. No sir. Meeting with sympathetic elected officials doesn't make publicly supporting these guys look any safer to anyone in the national media. Good thing there's no Law Enforcement at the place to keep things under control. Like keeping people from meeting with the militants against the wishes of the FBI. And they're now openly treating the refuge offices as a "community" center and using federal vehicles as they please. Also they're now looking into doing this for other ranchers around the area. Oh and it seems that not all of the Pacific Patriots left and in fact there are more armed men with inflated egos at the refuge: "Back at the refuge, a handful of men who appeared to be part of the Pacific Patriots Network remained. They carried sidearms and wore military garb, guarding the entrance of the compound." Crain fucked around with this message at 17:11 on Jan 11, 2016 |
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Jan 11, 2016 17:05
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theflyingorc posted:lol There are more options than 'raid' and 'do literally nothing', good grief. How about they risk their lives so that there's not some ridiculous cowboy shootout in town instead?
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Jan 11, 2016 17:05
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theflyingorc posted:lol Not asking for a raid. Saying that some kind of road block should be set up. And should have been from the get go. There's only one (maybe two) roads that lead to the buildings they are in. Setting up far away from the main buildings but not allowing more people in should have been part of the response from the beginning. I will admit that it's probably too late to put on up now. So I'm saying that the FBI has cocked this situation up and I think it's heading toward a violent resolution.
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Jan 11, 2016 17:08
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Vienna Circlejerk posted:I don't know if the Bundy gang knows this but everyone in this thread should: this isn't BLM land. The BLM is not involved in this. The BLM blinked at the last Bundy standoff (BLM Director Neil Kornze is the one who made the decision to call off the agents) and if this were another confrontation with the BLM then they might do it again, but they aren't in this. I know that doesn't mean there won't be another failure of law enforcement here. I wouldn't be surprised if Kornze had been pressured from higher up to back down. But I do think that the fact this is an actual land grab and not a dispute over grazing fees makes it different enough from Bundy Standoff 1 that simple comparisons don't really apply. Ok that might be true but the objective of the militia is to open the lands to exploitation by, among others, local ranchers. If the feds do nothing and the militia haven't left come grazing season they will in practice achieve that objective. It wouldn't be legal or permanent but that's not the point – it would serve as a demonstration and a precedent. The militia may yet leave but staying there is not worthless from their perspective. That big shiny victory sign in the distance is cattle grazing while the refuge is unable to monitor or control it. Even if they can't accomplish that, every day they are hot poo poo in the limelight and can explain the constitution to reporters is a victory.
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Jan 11, 2016 17:11
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quote:http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/01/10/behind-the-scenes-in-oregon-ammon-bundy-preaches-revolution.html Doesn't seem to be fizzling out like some people were predicting, at least not for lack of supplies.
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Jan 11, 2016 17:14
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herbaceous backson posted:Doesn't seem to be fizzling out like some people were predicting, at least not for lack of supplies. The longer this goes on, the more support they're going to get, especially from locals that share the same views but were just suspicious of outsiders. Time and familiarity legitimize too, imagine that.
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Jan 11, 2016 17:17
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lol at this rate they'll be there longer than OWS
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Jan 11, 2016 17:22
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Why the gently caress are these assholes not cut off? God damnit this poo poo pisses me the gently caress off. Blockade that poo poo, feds.
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Jan 11, 2016 17:23
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Here's a fun place to hang out and witness the lunacy for yourself. Yesterday they were posting a google doc with some lady's address in it as the place to send supplies to, which they've kept off their facebook. That's their idea of secrecy. they're also extremely easy to goatse, if that's your thing
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Jan 11, 2016 17:24
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Just dronestrike the fuckers already.
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Jan 11, 2016 17:27
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SocketWrench posted:I'm not sorry i'm not all "Roll in the tanks and the SWAT teams!" but I would rather avoid another black eye for the government and at the same time giving these types of fucks any type of rallying cry. I'd rather see it fall flat on its face and have the feds take care of it after when no one gives a poo poo about them. Ok, you edited this in so I didn't see it initially. But at what point do you take an active approach? People who are not law enforcement are trying to go in and end the stand off. Elected officials (with potential sympathies to the cause it seems) are going in and meeting with Ammon and other militia leaders. Things are not going in a direction where the initial ideas of "they'll leave eventually, just get them then" will work. At what point do you move in? The hands off approach is not working because now people who do want an active approach are coming in and trying to do it themselves.
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Jan 11, 2016 17:29
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Oh, but they're going to leave on their own. No really. ANNNNNYYYYYY SECOND NOWwwwwwwwwwww.........
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Jan 11, 2016 17:59
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gently caress, they really are going to stay, are they.
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Jan 11, 2016 18:00
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Crain posted:Ok, you edited this in so I didn't see it initially. But at what point do you take an active approach? It has been said before, but the FEDS say they are doing things just not the public's eye. somethingsomething tv doesn't show everything something something
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Jan 11, 2016 18:01
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Ninkobei posted:It has been said before, but the FEDS say they are doing things just not the public's eye. somethingsomething tv doesn't show everything something something Which has lead to outsiders going and trying to solve the problem themselves. Sorry, not problem. That's too strong language: Any stronger wording and I'd be trying to telekineticly force the FBI to use an Airburst nuke on innocent Americans Crain fucked around with this message at 18:04 on Jan 11, 2016 |
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Jan 11, 2016 18:02
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As a Millennial I posted:Here's a fun place to hang out and witness the lunacy for yourself. Yesterday they were posting a google doc with some lady's address in it as the place to send supplies to, which they've kept off their facebook. That's their idea of secrecy. I like the idea that they can do anything secretly since the FBI is famous for having fake cellphone towers that suck up all communications in an area and they also have a base of operations in that town.
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Jan 11, 2016 18:06
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It's the people in here that call for a raid every 30 seconds that really makes me laugh. Bundy And the Sons of Liberty: Armchair FBI Raid Planning Comittee You guys act like the FBI is just going to raid the place on command. This poo poo takes time to plan and formulate how to not get everyone killed in a fire or gunfight or something else that will fuel further responses. These are B-Team insurrectionists. The true worry is the reaction from actual insurrectionists that have the means of blowing up a real people federal building. If they just go in and gun down everyone there will be a response. Quelling an uprising requires negotiation that a reasonable person could perceive as just but fair. WAR CRIME GIGOLO fucked around with this message at 18:20 on Jan 11, 2016 |
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Jan 11, 2016 18:14
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They'll leave when they run out of food! - Can get groceries and is supplied hourly. They'll leave when they get bored! - Is the center of a media circus. They'll leave without popular support! - Is a living persecution complex. Infighting will break them apart! - Slow trickle of new volunteers. Any day now!
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Jan 11, 2016 18:17
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LeoMarr posted:It's the people in here that call for a raid every 30 seconds that really makes me laugh. Bundy And the Sons of Liberty: Armchair FBI Raid Planning Comittee And yet again the false dichotomy of "do nothing ever and give sloppy blowjobs" vs. "Indiscriminately kill everyone in a raid" pops up again. Anosmoman posted:They'll leave when they run out of food! Oh good, we have our own Iran.
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Jan 11, 2016 18:28
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it's true if they haven't left after a week, there's no way they'll ever leave i'm also seeing less and less discussion/interest of them on news sources, not more?
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Jan 11, 2016 18:31
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Crain posted:And yet again the false dichotomy of "do nothing ever and give sloppy blowjobs" vs. "Indiscriminately kill everyone in a raid" pops up again. To be honest, the latter sounds incredibly emotionally satisfying. It's a terrible idea, but these people are assholes and might very well deserve it.
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Jan 11, 2016 18:33
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Crain posted:And yet again the false dichotomy of "do nothing ever and give sloppy blowjobs" vs. "Indiscriminately kill everyone in a raid" pops up again. Yes stating that planning a raid that won't kill people takes time is equal to claiming that any raid would kill everyone. However denying freedom of movement in the form of roadblock poses the issue of creating a true siege which could be called an insurrection. Doing so justifies the insurrectionists agenda and now puts a true red line that must be crossed. I am sure that all of their movements are being watched via Satellite imaging and drone tech, If they are going in and out of town to get supplies daily then why stop them? If Bundy were to leave the county he would be grabbed immediately. However if they are staying within a miniscule sect of land then they are already blocked in. It's just larger than a roadblock. Bundy or any other ring leader go far enough they are gone. What the FBI is really worried about is them seizing the town. Then you would see a very different approach to the situation at hand.
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Jan 11, 2016 18:40
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LeoMarr posted:What the FBI is really worried about is them seizing the town. Then you would see a very different approach to the situation at hand. which they won't do, because then they're clearly the aggressor instead of posturing to make themselves the victims of big bad government
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Jan 11, 2016 18:44
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