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Great patriots are descending as we speak.
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Jan 15, 2016 20:59
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You can tell the FBI not doing anything is, at the very least, confusing the hell out of them
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Jan 15, 2016 21:02
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Wait is that image of "A man dressed as continental army officer walks through the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge Sunday, Jan. 10, 2016, near Burns, Oregon." from the article NOT a photoshop?
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Jan 15, 2016 21:04
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Horking Delight posted:Wait is that image of "A man dressed as continental army officer walks through the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge Sunday, Jan. 10, 2016, near Burns, Oregon." from the article NOT a photoshop? I was as surprised as you are. It's extremely real
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Jan 15, 2016 21:08
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theflyingorc posted:You can tell the FBI not doing anything is, at the very least, confusing the hell out of them It's emboldened them.
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Jan 15, 2016 21:10
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I would pay good money to see one of these militia men get tranq'ed.
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Jan 15, 2016 21:13
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Intel&Sebastian posted:Here's a good article summing up Cliven Bundy's history and how it connects to the Malheur bullshit. Good update for anyone wondering what's been done since their standoff. I don't know why you're responding to me with this but...good job?
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Jan 15, 2016 21:14
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Volkerball posted:It's emboldened them. going to the FBI station in an unarmed protest is unbelievably stupid, but it's also well within their rights. it's certainly not an escalation from what they're doing at the refuge
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Jan 15, 2016 21:15
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Are they protesting the FBI because they haven't been shot at yet?
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Jan 15, 2016 21:17
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theflyingorc posted:going to the FBI station in an unarmed protest is unbelievably stupid, but it's also well within their rights. it's certainly not an escalation from what they're doing at the refuge Unarmed? Fantastic, arrest them.
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Jan 15, 2016 21:17
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Haha a web comment pointed out that this would be a good time to go round up Clivens cattle. I agree.
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Jan 15, 2016 21:18
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Perfectly Safe posted:I don't know why you're responding to me with this but...good job? Because you quoted me describing the situation in short with a question mark and I took that to indicate you would like to know more. Like I said though, its a good read for backstory here.
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Jan 15, 2016 21:21
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BabelFish posted:It's a couple links deep, but apparently the anti defamation league put together an encyclopedia of dealing with sovcits, they called it: Idiot Legal Arguments This is interesting, but is there a version of this that isn't a giant fuckoff block of text for every explanation?
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Jan 15, 2016 21:21
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UV_Catastrophe posted:When a comparable left-wing protest eventually happens, I am 100 percent sure that the authorities will thoughtfully consider using a gentle response like the one used in Burns, Oregon and will definitely not stomp them out of existence using every dirty trick in the book. Remember when the FBI blockaded Occupy Wall Street - a comparable sit-in, except that it was on privately owned land in the middle of a city - on Day One to prevent food and people from entering or leaving, and dispersed them by force in less than a week? No, me neither. You and a lot of other people in this thread are literally making up persecutions that never happened in order to fuel your absurd persecution complexes. Your Dunkle Sans posted:You're leaving out the parts about seizing a federal building while armed, slashing the sheriff's tires, stalking and threatening his wife, etc. That tends to push it from punching down to up. Sheriff's free to arrest them any time he wants if they're loving with him or committing crimes in Burns. The feds can't prevent him from doing so. Tias posted:This stuff never ceases to amaze me. I mean, sure, you decide the rules don't apply to you, and the older guy you drink brake fluid with down by the tracks says there's legal precedent for thinking so if you just mutter enough about naval flags and sovereignty when the cops come. Rather than needing magic words to avoid the law, many sovereign citizens believe that the law doesn't apply to anyone in the first place, and that the entire modern legal system is an incredibly elaborate ruse designed to trick and intimidate people into waiving that exemption. The believe their "magic words" are just a way of exercising and defending their rights, just like a white college kid repeating "I do not consent to this search of my vehicle" over and over as a cop reaches for the bag of weed under the driver's seat. To them, being arrested and hauled into court is just the state putting on a show of legal theater to scare them into accepting the court's authority. Typically a sovereign citizen believer's brush with the system is something minor like traffic tickets or unpaid taxes, so it's not often they get tazed or jailed; when they do, they believe it's police brutality or illegal confinement and hold faith that their magic words will get the cops and the court punished for this so-called abuse. Talmonis posted:On that first day, I would have set up a small roadblock with the FBI and cooperation from the local Sheriff's department and state police. I'd demand they disperse, and that if they cooperated within a set time, they would be free to leave. Fined later. Uh-huh. What happens when they don't? If they just stand there, politely but firmly trying to stroll past the blockade? Either the feds move aside and are rendered impotent, or they intervene with physical force to prevent the militiamen from coming out and boom, they've just escalated the situation with violence. The FBI has fifty-some years of proof in their history that standoff tactics simply don't work for de-escalating a situation. In fact, they're exactly how peaceful protests turn into massacres - if law enforcement agents create a barrier, then they are creating a situation in which they have to use violence to prevent protesters from passing it. It's a golden opportunity for the protesters, and is unlikely to bring any particular value to law enforcement beyond "looking tough" and setting up for a firefight. Volkerball posted:It's emboldened them. If it had emboldened them, they wouldn't be making a point of going unarmed. It's nothing more than the same "crap, we didn't get the response we hoped for...now what?" malaise that struck Occupy before too long.
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Jan 15, 2016 21:22
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Talmonis posted:Unarmed? Fantastic, arrest them. Yeah honestly this is the best resolution anyone could hope for
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Jan 15, 2016 21:22
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I appreciate the input but calling an armed group declaring that they'll shoot feds if they enforce the law comparable to a sit-in is a laffer. Compare the two if you like but "non violent protest" means nothing if it includes the malheur bunch.
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Jan 15, 2016 21:27
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Intel&Sebastian posted:Haha a web comment pointed out that this would be a good time to go round up Clivens cattle. I agree. It would be so good if Cliven Bundy's ranch got raided and he was arrested right now.
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Jan 15, 2016 21:34
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And funny how we consider a hypothetical unarmed protest at FBI headquarters evidence that leaving them alone doesn't embolden them, but don't address what leaving them alone at Bundy Ranch and all previous Bundy Encounters got us. The entire history of Bundy and Co from the start has been a loop of Break law Enforce law Get threatened with gun Do nothing Break more laws in flashier way (Option to skip to do nothing) Enforce law Get threatened with gun Do nothing Break more laws in flashier way That's emboldeningnas far as I can tell. And I'm not giving anyone at the FBI an award for letting them terrorize the nation while they dry run whatever encounter finally gets them what they want.
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Jan 15, 2016 21:34
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OWS was armed with dangerous Un-American ideas!
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Jan 15, 2016 21:35
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Talmonis posted:Unarmed? Fantastic, arrest them. if enough of them are there, i definitely agree. double definitely if ammon is there
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Jan 15, 2016 21:38
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Talmonis posted:Unarmed? Fantastic, arrest them. Sure, they say they're unarmed but I'd bet all of them have a little CCW gun hidden away at all times.
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Jan 15, 2016 21:40
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Main Paineframe posted:Rather than needing magic words to avoid the law, many sovereign citizens believe that the law doesn't apply to anyone in the first place, and that the entire modern legal system is an incredibly elaborate ruse designed to trick and intimidate people into waiving that exemption. The believe their "magic words" are just a way of exercising and defending their rights, just like a white college kid repeating "I do not consent to this search of my vehicle" over and over as a cop reaches for the bag of weed under the driver's seat. To them, being arrested and hauled into court is just the state putting on a show of legal theater to scare them into accepting the court's authority. Typically a sovereign citizen believer's brush with the system is something minor like traffic tickets or unpaid taxes, so it's not often they get tazed or jailed; when they do, they believe it's police brutality or illegal confinement and hold faith that their magic words will get the cops and the court punished for this so-called abuse. Yeah, it's like that idea that a company or person can't force you do do anything you didn't agree to, and if you won't want to play by their rules you can just not sign the contract. They argue that since they didn't agree to the contract, they're not bound by the terms of it. Except the contract is the social contract, and the government doesn't work that way. I'm fond of that one legal paper penned by an Alberta judge: Meads v. Meads, 2012 ABQB 571. (and here's a pdf link). Frustrated by the phenomenon, he dissects it. quote:[395] OPCA litigants who adopt this scheme tend to identify practically any state document, even a driver’s license or a birth certificate, as a contract. CERI members explain that is the reason why they do not use driver’s licenses or license plates. They argue, in effect, that they do not wish to be in a contract with the state, and should be able to engage in activities, for example operation of a motor vehicle, without being bound to the state in that manner. He also gets in some pretty good burns. quote:[80] When gurus do appear in court their schemes uniformly fail, which is why most leave court appearances to their customers. That explains why it is not unusual to find that an OPCA litigant cannot even explain their own materials. They did not write them. They do not (fully) understand them. OPCA litigants appear, engage in a court drama that is more akin to a magic spell ritual than an actual legal proceeding, and wait to see if the court is entranced and compliant. If not, the litigant returns home to scrutinize at what point the wrong incantation was uttered, an incorrectly prepared artifact waved or submitted. quote:[434] As previously explained, Mr. Meads subscribes to the idea that the non-corporeal aspect of himself was created by the state (or alternatively by me, on June 8, 2012). He must believe he nevertheless has ‘signing authority’ over that other personality because in his “power of attorney” he, as “DENNIS LARRY MEADS, Debtor and Grantor”, authorizes his “attorney-in-fact”, “Dennis-Larry: Meads, Secured Party Creditor” total control over his affairs. Presumably, the ‘corporate entity’ is now a puppet for the physical person.
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Jan 15, 2016 21:43
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Next stream starts at like 5? Did I miss the daily presser? What about the community meeting? I was busy getting my eyes unfucked and paying for new things to put on/infront of them.
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Jan 15, 2016 21:43
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"They might have a gun" - After a crime, an excellent reason to not arrest a militant daring you to arrest them. So good it can work its magic for 25 years. "They might have a gun" - After a crime, an excellent reason to shoot someone who is holding a cell phone, has their hands near their waist, or is walking vaguely in the direction of anything with a pulse. So good they don't even need to actually happen as long as it's your word vs a dead bodies'.
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Jan 15, 2016 21:48
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News says they cancelled the meeting because the county wouldn't let them use the fairgrounds. A little fuzzy on how official this is.
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Jan 15, 2016 21:49
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Intel&Sebastian posted:Haha a web comment pointed out that this would be a good time to go round up Clivens cattle. I agree. Optimus Subprime posted:It would be so good if Cliven Bundy's ranch got raided and he was arrested right now. Bundy's ranch is, iirc, continuously patrolled by armed nuts now- after the big showdown, a number of the more closely affiliated members of the group never left.
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Jan 15, 2016 21:52
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I'd say they would just break in and hold the meeting anyway, since it's THE PEOPLE'S land - but the fairgrounds is county, not federal, property, so by their own logic, only a county resident would have the right to break in. Postponing the meeting suggests that they don't have a single local willing to Stand Up For Their Rights for their meeting.
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Jan 15, 2016 21:54
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Intel&Sebastian posted:"They might have a gun" - After a crime, an excellent reason to not arrest a militant daring you to arrest them. So good it can work its magic for 25 years. You know, I'm thinking that every person of color should apply for a CCW permit. I think that will do wonders in exposing how much of a mockery some law enforcement has been. If denied, maybe they should compare notes and maybe they'll find that their reasons for denial just don't stack up to... other people.
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Jan 15, 2016 21:55
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Discendo Vox posted:Bundy's ranch is, iirc, continuously patrolled by armed nuts now- after the big showdown, a number of the more closely affiliated members of the group never left. Makes sense, and for the ones I know are out there: I was joking. Although if it was possible to get him without an incident I would be happy it happened at anytime.
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Jan 15, 2016 21:57
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https://twitter.com/thomasboyd/status/688067403201118209 They made their own logos to cover the Fish & Wildlife logos on the trucks and equipment.
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Jan 15, 2016 22:00
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Doctor Butts posted:You know, I assume you're aware, but that's also a proven way to win support for gun control.
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Jan 15, 2016 22:02
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Kind of behind on things but supposedly they've been claiming they caught FBI agents impersonating militia at an armory or something? Did they even try to give some sort of actual evidence on that claim?
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Jan 15, 2016 22:03
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Main Paineframe posted:
Then the FBI arrest them. The police, FBI, etc. have the authority to enact force (meaning touching you, using handcuffs, etc.) to arrest you. This....shouldn't be that hard to comprehend. Hands behind your head, there's a good lad. Any and all shooting would be started by militia, and then ended by the law, letting the survivors get a nice long stay in Federal supermax.
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Jan 15, 2016 22:05
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Zerilan posted:Kind of behind on things but supposedly they've been claiming they caught FBI agents impersonating militia at an armory or something? Did they even try to give some sort of actual evidence on that claim? FBI agents is the debil. But in all seriousness: No. I wasn't able to get a solid narrative on what the gently caress they were talking about. Evidence or otherwise.
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Jan 15, 2016 22:09
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Horking Delight posted:Wait is that image of "A man dressed as continental army officer walks through the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge Sunday, Jan. 10, 2016, near Burns, Oregon." from the article NOT a photoshop? It's real and I have to wonder how militia members look at the guy and think anything other than "they're like a mascot" or "that guy makes us look bad (worse)" but they probably love it. Zerilan posted:Kind of behind on things but supposedly they've been claiming they caught FBI agents impersonating militia at an armory or something? Did they even try to give some sort of actual evidence on that claim? No, it was a game of telephone and even the retired militia-supporting Fire Marshal the story comes from has said the occupiers' story was exaggerated (though he still blames FBI undercover instigators or some other bullshit because he's an old right wing pro-militia guy).
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Jan 15, 2016 22:12
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Intel&Sebastian posted:I assume you're aware, but that's also a proven way to win support for gun control. It's a loving shame that you can have a surefire way to prove how racist the country still is and the best you can hope for is maybe some common sense laws that make it harder for people to shoot each other all the god drat time. All the chafing against gun control, to me, centers around the fact that the gun advocates are already fully aware that things have gotten way out of control. And they use their fear to sell it. "A good guy with a gun" arguments only make sense if you assume all the bad guys have guns in the first place. How did they get that gun? The argument for gun control was never a flat out slippery slope take guns away from everyone. The argument was always about preventing guns from getting in the hands of people who would do bad, and getting them out of their hands if they happened to get one. Sorry about the gun derail post. It's just that your post brought out something that's been on my mind.
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Jan 15, 2016 22:14
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Intel&Sebastian posted:Because you quoted me describing the situation in short with a question mark and I took that to indicate you would like to know more. I responded to you with a question mark because you'd quoted me and replied with a non-sequiteur. I assumed you'd quoted the wrong person.
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Jan 15, 2016 22:17
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Doctor Butts posted:It's a loving shame that you can have a surefire way to prove how racist the country still is and the best you can hope for is maybe some common sense laws that make it harder for people to shoot each other all the god drat time. Except for Feinstein and Bloomberg. But they're authoritarian loons.
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Jan 15, 2016 22:21
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 https://twitter.com/jjmacnab/status/688103421749035008 e: never mind, it was an unrelated outstanding warrant and he's been released already 
GameCube fucked around with this message at 22:25 on Jan 15, 2016 |
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Jan 15, 2016 22:22
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I wonder what he did to cause that
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Jan 15, 2016 22:26
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