Chomskyan posted:

You know what JeffersonClay, you're right. I have made mistakes in my posts in this thread and I completely own up to that. A little bit back I referred to China as the DPRC and Taiwan as the RPC because I mixed the acronyms up in my head. I've gone back and corrected that post. I've also made other mistakes. For example, in a post on the last page I realize I might have implied that the US has a hard security agreement with Taiwan; it's actually a pretty vaguely worded agreement that the US could pretty easily weasel out of if China invades. I'll go back and correct that too, so that anyone reading my post in good faith isn't mislead or confused. Also, I'll probably make more mistakes like that in the future, and if I'm called out on it or I discover myself that something I've said is wrong, I'll change those posts too for the same reasons as before.

However, I don't think the mistakes I've just mentioned are really the same as yours. For one, despite being called out on your very misleading representation of Taiwanese perceptions of China, you've yet to really to really retract or amend any of your statements. For the record you said "To Taiwan, China is a hostile state who states publicly they intend annexation." which is I guess, arguably true since that's popular opinion in Taiwan. That is not however the stance of the government of Taiwan (until a new government takes over in May), nor is it the stance of the US government which officially considers Taiwan to be a part of China (there is no official US embassy in Taiwan). You might argue "well, I favor the position of the people over that of the government" in which case I completely 100% agree, but it seems sort of hypocritical coming from you, seeing as you're more than willing to disregard the opinions of the Japanese people, and particularly the opinions of Okinawans when it comes to the new base at Henoko.

You also said "Taiwan itself would be unwilling to enter into any partnership or joint effort with China because that would be a tangible and significant step towards reunification with China". But as I pointed out, Taiwan and China already have de-facto diplomatic relations through SEF and ARATS, and have engaged in massive joint efforts already including a major trade agreement. Yes, it's true that formal relations won't be established because until now (or really, until May), both Taiwan and China have adamantly declared that there is only "one China" which they had both claimed belonged to them. How can you have formal diplomatic relations with what is considered rebel controlled territory? But as SEF and ARATS (and other, similar organizations) have proven, it is possible for both China and Taiwan to essentially ignore that dilemma and establish relations anyways, without recognizing the legitimacy of the other side's territorial claims. This kind of informal diplomacy is what Goldstein was calling for.

Despite all this, you are far from the worst poster in this thread. You, for the most part, don't seem to be posting in bad faith (except of course, when you misrepresent my position on China, whose actions in the South China Sea I do not support). I also like the maps you've posted that show overlapping claims in the South China Sea. That was a great contribution. Also, frankly, you're kind of a treasure in this thread because you post things like "uncle sam's ample bosom" and that's just hilarious imagery. You should however, concede that you've had some pretty serious misconceptions about China and Taiwan and make a good faith attempt to educate yourself better on that issue.

Effectronica posted:

Why is it not called an embassy or consulate, rudatron?

quote:

12.The US side declared: The United States acknowledges that all Chinese on either side of the Taiwan Strait maintain there is but one China and that Taiwan is a part of China. The United States Government does not challenge that position. It reaffirms its interest in a peaceful settlement of the Taiwan question by the Chinese themselves. With this prospect in mind, it affirms the ultimate objective of the withdrawal of all US forces and military installations from Taiwan. In the meantime, it will progressively reduce its forces and military installations on Taiwan as the tension in the area diminishes. The two sides agreed that it is desirable to broaden the understanding between the two peoples. To this end, they discussed specific areas in such fields as science, technology, culture, sports and journalism, in which people-to-people contacts and exchanges would be mutually beneficial. Each side undertakes to facilitate the further development of such contacts and exchanges.

JeffersonClay posted:

So we have a choice: Support Taiwan's de facto independence while keeping up pretenses with China, or allow China to take Taiwan back by force. I think we should continue to support Taiwan, and military bases on Okinawa are critical to that support.

Chomskyan posted:

Why? Do you think the US should go to war with China if it invades Taiwan? If not, what's the point of a military buildup (especially when it's so unpopular and arguably violates the rights of the Okinawans)?

Effectronica posted:

I enjoy the idea that the majority of people on Taiwan sincerely believe that they are not Chinese, have no cultural connection to China, and are only kept from declaring themselves "the Republic of Taiwan"- despite the existence of pro-independence parties, mind- by the fear of Chinese invasion. Is there a book that you people get all your opinions from? Wait, let me rephrase that. Is there an infotainmentgraphic you people get all your opinions from?

quote:

The survey found only 9.1% of respondents support unification, against 21.1% who support independence, and only 3.3% see themselves as Chinese

quote:

In a gritty suburb of Tainan in southern Taiwan, a city known for its fierce anti-China sentiment, Huang Hsien-ching was stacking election flyers and inspecting campaign trucks rigged up with megaphones before Saturday's islandwide elections.

As a rookie candidate for the fledgling Free Taiwan Party - one of a number of smaller, radical groups advocating independence from China - Huang, a family doctor, says he's put $30,000 of his savings and his career on the line to try to fight back against what he sees as an increasingly assertive China.

"More and more people want independence in Taiwan," said Huang, 61 with a buzz cut, in his campaign office fronted by a giant billboard of himself holding his arm aloft with the logo of a bird in flight.

"China is suppressing Taiwan internationally and they don't treat us as equals. Independence is the only way for us to develop and move forward," added Huang, who grew up in Tainan, a trading port that in centuries past was ruled by a succession of powers including the Spanish, Dutch, Japanese and Chinese.

Huang's rhetoric is exactly the kind of thing Beijing hates the most. China has warned repeatedly it will never tolerate independence for an island it considers a rebel province and has not ruled out the use of force to ensure eventual unification.

In cities, townships and villages across the mountainous island of 23 million, deep-rooted ideological differences shaped by Taiwan's fraught history with China will once again play out at the ballot box.

Nearly seven decades of historical enmity between China's Communist Party and the Nationalists (KMT), who escaped to Taiwan after the Chinese civil war, have made independence, or unification, a core issue.

More radical, anti-China voices like Huang's persist even with the independence-leaning Democratic Progressive Party (DPP) expected to sweep in a new president and parliamentary majority on Saturday, and potentially reshape relations with China.

During a campaign rally through the streets of Tainan in the DPP's traditional stronghold of southern Taiwan, tens of thousands thronged the streets, set off firecrackers, waved flags and cheered as DPP presidential frontrunner Tsai Ing-wen, likely to become the island's first woman president, swept by in a motorcade.

HISTORICAL IMPERATIVE

"Taiwan and China, we're brothers for sure, but we've already divided into two families," said prominent Taiwanese rapper Dwagie, who turned up for a Tsai campaign pitstop at an ornate ancient temple in Tainan with a few friends.

"Independence is an ambition for the future but it's not possible in the current situation. We should focus on the economy first," said Dwagie, who raps in Taiwanese Hokkien, a language highly symbolic of the island's distinctiveness, rather than Mandarin, the official language in both Taiwan and China.

The DPP says only the people of Taiwan can decide its future. China takes that to mean it wants independence.

But for Fu Chien-feng, another rookie Tainan parliamentary candidate on the other end of the political spectrum, engagement with China is a historical imperative.

A 57-year-old former journalist now contesting a legislative seat for his China Unification Promotion Party, he concedes he has little chance, but feels his minority pro-China voice remains important.

"If we can have a 'one country, two systems' arrangement like in Hong Kong and it is in Taiwan's interest, I think we should consider it," he said in his office in Anping district, close to the ruins of the historic Dutch-era Zeelandia Fort.

The former British colony of Hong Kong returned to Chinese rule in 1997 under the so-called "one country, two systems" formula. China has held it out as a solution for Taiwan, but both the KMT and DPP have rejected the model.

"If Tsai Ing-wen pushes for independence, we'll be punished by China economically," Fu said. "Look at the West and how it now engages and co-operates with China. How is it possible that Taiwan, with the same language and culture, doesn't do the same?"

But back in Dr Huang's office, surrounded by rice and flax fields and fish farms, he says a democratic, free and open Taiwan can't accept rule by an authoritarian regime.

"We must pay whatever price to achieve independence ... even if it means war with China," Huang said.

"I don't trust China. Look at Tibet, Xinjiang, and now Hong Kong," he said, referring to the recent disappearances of five Hong Kong booksellers amid speculation they may have been abducted and detained by Chinese authorities. China has so far not commented on the possible fate of the men.

"We don't want Taiwan to become a place without freedom of expression, where booksellers go missing. We don't want this kind of country to take over."

JeffersonClay posted:

Yes.

Jaramin posted:

The statement that Taiwan is a province of China is predicated on a perpetual threat of invasion by the PRC. Comments have been made by the US much more recently than 1971 which dispute the use of the PRC's One China policy language, and Taiwan itself has applied to be readmitted to the UN independant of the PRC. For all intents and purposes, it's a seperate country resulting from a civil war. "One China" talk from both sides is just political posturing for the benefit of adherence to the status quo.

Chomskyan posted:

Then you are insane. Such a war would pose a serious risk of a nuclear exchange.

Chomskyan posted:

Rudatron I think it may be because of this:

Effectronica posted:

Taiwan has been part of China for more than 200 years. The idea that this condition remains is actually much stronger than Japanese claims that Okinawa and the Ryukyus are integral parts of Japan, or that Alaska and Hawai'i are integral parts of the United States of America.

Now, only about 2% of the people of Taiwan want to live under the brutal oligarchic rule of the Communist Party of China, but this insistence on a kind of telepathy wherein the establishment of a democratic government on mainland China would see Taiwan declaring total independence as the only possibility is spooky. It suggests that you all are something not quite human, with how in lockstep you think and act.

rudatron posted:

What the gently caress? No one's talking about some dumb hypothetical of the PRC turning democratic. We're talking about the very real possibility of the PRC, the government that's there now, annexing Taiwan if the US isn't there, something which the both the Taiwanese government and people don't want, nor would any other country in the region. The fact that the Taiwanese are culturally Chinese, in the same way north and south Koreans both seem themselves as Korean, is absolutely loving irrelevant.

Wow ho ho now, taking the US at it's word now are we? What a hypocrite you've turned out to be.

JeffersonClay posted:

If the government of China magically transformed into a democracy like Taiwan's then perhaps many of the people who support independence would change their mind. But you clearly don't know anything about the issue.

JeffersonClay posted:

So you think China would revise its no first use policy? Or that China would nuke Taiwan rather than lose it? In what scenario does China start a nuclear war with the US?

JeffersonClay posted:

If the government of China magically transformed into a democracy like Taiwan's then perhaps many of the people who support independence would change their mind. And even if you could wave your magic wand and oust the CCP, the CCP has been spending a lot of effort over the past 70 years to control and influence the culture of China. China and Taiwan's cultures have diverged. Whether they still have enough in common to be reunified should require the consent of both parties to decide.

rudatron posted:

Wow ho ho now, taking the US at it's word now are we? What a hypocrite you've turned out to be.

Effectronica posted:

Why is it not called an embassy or consulate, rudatron?

Effectronica posted:

Boogaleeboo posted:

Yeah, but nobody cares.

Crowsbeak posted:

Remember everyone supporting any bases in Okinawa makes you a pedophile supporter. As does standing up for Taiwan and not sating Japan is worse then the Glorious workers paradise PRC.

Effectronica posted:

You're talking about that because you're morally and intellectually stunted, and need reasons to justify the rape and murder of Okinawans by American jarheads, so you conclude that the US Navy is incapable of trashing the single carrier and 50 destroyers of the entire PLA/N without those Marines having a good ol' time in the sunny Ryukyus.

Chomskyan posted:

Your posts are so stupid. Of course I'm not taking the US at its word, but you can't just ignore the US's official position on Taiwan (this is what you were doing).

Effectronica posted:

Re-read the post, and don't lie about what it says next time.

rudatron posted:

The beauty is that you can use the same logic to demand that all muslims/whites/men apologize for all terrorism/colonialism/rape.

China has a larger naval force than japan, and it's strength is in submarines, not surface vessels. http://www.globalfirepower.com/countries-comparison-detail.asp?form=form&country1=Japan&country2=China&Submit=Compare+Countries. It also has a poo poo-ton more aircraft. And none one's trying to justify murder or rape committed by US service members, maybe deal with what people have said rather than what you wish they had said.

Crowsbeak posted:

You know if you don't want to be misrepresented you probably should consider not doing so yourself. Just some food for thought.

rudatron posted:

Why not? Why can't I do that? Especially since it's not actually relevant to very real and very physical geopolitics here.

Effectronica posted:

Other Americans don't care.

Boogaleeboo posted:

Man gently caress that, the rest of Japan doesn't care. America not giving a poo poo it fucks you over is kind of a gimme, of course it doesn't. When your own country writes you off because they'd rather have the bases than your happiness? Really not you can do there.

Boogaleeboo posted:

Man gently caress that, the rest of Japan doesn't care. America not giving a poo poo it fucks you over is kind of a gimme, of course it doesn't. When your own country writes you off because they'd rather have the bases than your happiness? Really not you can do there.

Effectronica posted:

Chomskyan posted:

It certainly is relevant. As was noted just a few posts ago, this stance by the US has prevented Taiwan from getting re-recognized at the UN. It has also significantly weakened the security treaty between the US and Taiwan. The US has also blocked Taiwan from acquiring nuclear weapons. If Taiwan had acquired nukes it might be able to actually deter China and declare independence, but the US quashed the program (I fully support the US's decision on this though, Taiwan acquiring nukes would have been too dangerous). The official US policy on Taiwan has real effects, you can't just ignore it.

Chomskyan posted:

This isn't true actually.

rudatron posted:

The point is that China is without a doubt the strongest military regional power, and it's also expansionist, so it's no surprise that some of its neighbors, whether they are de jure or de facto states, might want foreign helpin the area.

Boogaleeboo posted:

Oh, then good news. I'm sure they'll be gone any day now any everyone will be happy forever.

Chomskyan posted:

This isn't true actually.

rudatron posted:

Chomskyan posted:

It certainly is relevant. As was noted just a few posts ago, this stance by the US has prevented Taiwan from getting re-recognized at the UN. It has also significantly weakened the security treaty between the US and Taiwan. The US has also blocked Taiwan from acquiring nuclear weapons. If Taiwan had acquired nukes it might be able to actually deter China and declare independence, but the US quashed the program (I fully support the US's decision on this though, Taiwan acquiring nukes would have been too dangerous). The official US policy on Taiwan has real effects, you can't just ignore it.

So your plan for peace in the South East Asia is nuclear proliferation? Is that really better than the US having a base in the area? Really? Really? It also hasn't really weakened any security arrangements between Taiwan and the US, all it means is that both parties agree to do a ltitle hand waving for the sake of the PRC. If China moves on Taiwan, the US will be there.

rudatron posted:

Noam Chomsky: First we go the bomb, and that was good, because we love peace and motherhood.

Effectronica posted:

Are you, "rudatron", willing to go on record and say that the goal of the People's Republic of China is, at a minimum, to invade and annex Japan and violently reintegrate Taiwan, and will not rule out any maximum short of world conquest?

Edit: Also, you reversed what Chomskyan said. You seem to be getting so angry that it's affecting your ability to read, or maybe you're just naturally that dumb.

SedanChair posted:

So now you fall back on the inevitability of American might?

rudatron posted:

And okay, Chomskyan wants Taiwan to bend over backwards for China, give up its democracy and just be another protectorate of the PRC.

Chomskyan posted:

rudatron posted:

This post right here:

Because while your concern of the entire post is the 'use of force', what's not acknowledged is what the model of governance of Taiwan will be, and who is ultimately soverign. And if you want to see the kind of government model the PRC will want for Taiwan, look no further than Hong Kong. Do the Taiwanese people want that? If they do, fine, the US leaves. If they don't, they might want the US to help them.