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Chomskyan posted:You know what JeffersonClay, you're right. I have made mistakes in my posts in this thread and I completely own up to that. A little bit back I referred to China as the DPRC and Taiwan as the RPC because I mixed the acronyms up in my head. I've gone back and corrected that post. I've also made other mistakes. For example, in a post on the last page I realize I might have implied that the US has a hard security agreement with Taiwan; it's actually a pretty vaguely worded agreement that the US could pretty easily weasel out of if China invades. I'll go back and correct that too, so that anyone reading my post in good faith isn't mislead or confused. Also, I'll probably make more mistakes like that in the future, and if I'm called out on it or I discover myself that something I've said is wrong, I'll change those posts too for the same reasons as before. Effectronica posted:Why is it not called an embassy or consulate, rudatron? Because China and Taiwan still have a tenuous ceasefire after nearly 70 years. All the parties to this ceasefire engage in an elaborate dance so that, for example, the US can trade with China and Taiwan simultaneously. China withdraws diplomatic relations from countries which hold diplomatic relations with Taiwan. The US doesn't have an actual embassy in Taiwan because if they did, the Chinese wouldn't let us have one in Beijing. SEF and ARATS are just part of that dance, allowing China and Taiwan to trade without actually recognizing one another diplomatically. The fact that Taiwan and China engage in trade does not mean that Taiwan will somehow be interested in reunification, or any path towards reunification. China has warned the world that they will invade Taiwan if they believe peaceful options for reunification have been exhausted or if Taiwan declares independence. This is why when you ask the Taiwanese "Do you support independence from China" You get 25% supporting independence, 10% supporting unification, with the rest supporting the status quo. They support de facto independence because China will break the ceasefire if they get de jure independence. No amount of US posturing is going to change that dynamic. So we have a choice: Support Taiwan's de facto independence while keeping up pretenses with China, or allow China to take Taiwan back by force. I think we should continue to support Taiwan, and military bases on Okinawa are critical to that support.
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# ? Jan 24, 2016 04:18 |
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# ? Jun 8, 2024 06:33 |
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Rudatron I think it may be because of this:quote:12.The US side declared: The United States acknowledges that all Chinese on either side of the Taiwan Strait maintain there is but one China and that Taiwan is a part of China. The United States Government does not challenge that position. It reaffirms its interest in a peaceful settlement of the Taiwan question by the Chinese themselves. With this prospect in mind, it affirms the ultimate objective of the withdrawal of all US forces and military installations from Taiwan. In the meantime, it will progressively reduce its forces and military installations on Taiwan as the tension in the area diminishes. The two sides agreed that it is desirable to broaden the understanding between the two peoples. To this end, they discussed specific areas in such fields as science, technology, culture, sports and journalism, in which people-to-people contacts and exchanges would be mutually beneficial. Each side undertakes to facilitate the further development of such contacts and exchanges. JeffersonClay posted:So we have a choice: Support Taiwan's de facto independence while keeping up pretenses with China, or allow China to take Taiwan back by force. I think we should continue to support Taiwan, and military bases on Okinawa are critical to that support. Red and Black fucked around with this message at 04:28 on Jan 24, 2016 |
# ? Jan 24, 2016 04:22 |
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Yeah, nobody wants to have to start killing millions of people so everyone plays a game where China pretends that some day Taiwan will just wander home, and Taiwan doesn't tell the psychotic thugs running a jumped up third world nation beside them to just gently caress off and die already. It seems to work for global peace.
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# ? Jan 24, 2016 04:29 |
I enjoy the idea that the majority of people on Taiwan sincerely believe that they are not Chinese, have no cultural connection to China, and are only kept from declaring themselves "the Republic of Taiwan"- despite the existence of pro-independence parties, mind- by the fear of Chinese invasion. Is there a book that you people get all your opinions from? Wait, let me rephrase that. Is there an infotainmentgraphic you people get all your opinions from?
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# ? Jan 24, 2016 04:33 |
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Chomskyan posted:Why? Do you think the US should go to war with China if it invades Taiwan? If not, what's the point of a military buildup (especially when it's so unpopular and arguably violates the rights of the Okinawans)? Yes, but I think deterrence will work. Effectronica posted:I enjoy the idea that the majority of people on Taiwan sincerely believe that they are not Chinese, have no cultural connection to China, and are only kept from declaring themselves "the Republic of Taiwan"- despite the existence of pro-independence parties, mind- by the fear of Chinese invasion. Is there a book that you people get all your opinions from? Wait, let me rephrase that. Is there an infotainmentgraphic you people get all your opinions from? http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2015/07/26/2003623930 quote:The survey found only 9.1% of respondents support unification, against 21.1% who support independence, and only 3.3% see themselves as Chinese http://www.reuters.com/article/us-taiwan-election-south-idUSKCN0UQ2HC20160112 quote:In a gritty suburb of Tainan in southern Taiwan, a city known for its fierce anti-China sentiment, Huang Hsien-ching was stacking election flyers and inspecting campaign trucks rigged up with megaphones before Saturday's islandwide elections. You are dumb. JeffersonClay fucked around with this message at 04:50 on Jan 24, 2016 |
# ? Jan 24, 2016 04:39 |
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The statement that Taiwan is a province of China is predicated on a perpetual threat of invasion by the PRC. Comments have been made by the US much more recently than 1971 which dispute the use of the PRC's One China policy language, and Taiwan itself has applied to be readmitted to the UN independant of the PRC. For all intents and purposes, it's a seperate country resulting from a civil war. "One China" talk from both sides is just political posturing for the benefit of adherence to the status quo.
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# ? Jan 24, 2016 04:40 |
Taiwan has been part of China for more than 200 years. The idea that this condition remains is actually much stronger than Japanese claims that Okinawa and the Ryukyus are integral parts of Japan, or that Alaska and Hawai'i are integral parts of the United States of America. Now, only about 2% of the people of Taiwan want to live under the brutal oligarchic rule of the Communist Party of China, but this insistence on a kind of telepathy wherein the establishment of a democratic government on mainland China would see Taiwan declaring total independence as the only possibility is spooky. It suggests that you all are something not quite human, with how in lockstep you think and act.
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# ? Jan 24, 2016 04:48 |
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Then you are insane. Such a war would pose a serious risk of a nuclear exchange.Jaramin posted:The statement that Taiwan is a province of China is predicated on a perpetual threat of invasion by the PRC. Comments have been made by the US much more recently than 1971 which dispute the use of the PRC's One China policy language, and Taiwan itself has applied to be readmitted to the UN independant of the PRC. For all intents and purposes, it's a seperate country resulting from a civil war. "One China" talk from both sides is just political posturing for the benefit of adherence to the status quo. Red and Black fucked around with this message at 04:53 on Jan 24, 2016 |
# ? Jan 24, 2016 04:50 |
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Chomskyan posted:Then you are insane. Such a war would pose a serious risk of a nuclear exchange. So you think China would revise its no first use policy? Or that China would nuke Taiwan rather than lose it? In what scenario does China start a nuclear war with the US?
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# ? Jan 24, 2016 04:54 |
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What the gently caress? No one's talking about some dumb hypothetical of the PRC turning democratic. We're talking about the very real possibility of the PRC, the government that's there now, annexing Taiwan if the US isn't there, something which the both the Taiwanese government and people don't want, nor would any other country in the region. The fact that the Taiwanese are culturally Chinese, in the same way north and south Koreans both seem themselves as Korean, is absolutely loving irrelevant.Chomskyan posted:Rudatron I think it may be because of this:
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# ? Jan 24, 2016 04:55 |
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Effectronica posted:Taiwan has been part of China for more than 200 years. The idea that this condition remains is actually much stronger than Japanese claims that Okinawa and the Ryukyus are integral parts of Japan, or that Alaska and Hawai'i are integral parts of the United States of America. If the government of China magically transformed into a democracy like Taiwan's then perhaps many of the people who support independence would change their mind. And even if you could wave your magic wand and oust the CCP, the CCP has been spending a lot of effort over the past 70 years to control and influence the culture of China. China and Taiwan's cultures have diverged. Whether they still have enough in common to be reunified should require the consent of both parties to decide. JeffersonClay fucked around with this message at 05:03 on Jan 24, 2016 |
# ? Jan 24, 2016 04:58 |
rudatron posted:What the gently caress? No one's talking about some dumb hypothetical of the PRC turning democratic. We're talking about the very real possibility of the PRC, the government that's there now, annexing Taiwan if the US isn't there, something which the both the Taiwanese government and people don't want, nor would any other country in the region. The fact that the Taiwanese are culturally Chinese, in the same way north and south Koreans both seem themselves as Korean, is absolutely loving irrelevant. You're talking about that because you're morally and intellectually stunted, and need reasons to justify the rape and murder of Okinawans by American jarheads, so you conclude that the US Navy is incapable of trashing the single carrier and 50 destroyers of the entire PLA/N without those Marines having a good ol' time in the sunny Ryukyus. JeffersonClay posted:If the government of China magically transformed into a democracy like Taiwan's then perhaps many of the people who support independence would change their mind. But you clearly don't know anything about the issue. Hey, Supercilious Man, your superpowers are a literal joke! Haha, just like the one I just made where I turned your condescension and arrogance into a joke. So with that out of the way, you contemptible codfish, I wonder where the 16 million Taiwanese who don't support independence are in your view of the world? Are they, perhaps, a product of PRC propaganda? You never know what the insidious Asiatic is up to with their constant attempts to invade and subjugate the rest of the world. Thank White Jesus America stands on guard. (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)
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# ? Jan 24, 2016 05:04 |
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JeffersonClay posted:So you think China would revise its no first use policy? Or that China would nuke Taiwan rather than lose it? In what scenario does China start a nuclear war with the US? e: JeffersonClay posted:If the government of China magically transformed into a democracy like Taiwan's then perhaps many of the people who support independence would change their mind. And even if you could wave your magic wand and oust the CCP, the CCP has been spending a lot of effort over the past 70 years to control and influence the culture of China. China and Taiwan's cultures have diverged. Whether they still have enough in common to be reunified should require the consent of both parties to decide. 1) Taiwanese consent: of vital importance. 2) Okinawan consent: irrelevant. rudatron posted:Wow ho ho now, taking the US at it's word now are we? What a hypocrite you've turned out to be. Red and Black fucked around with this message at 05:15 on Jan 24, 2016 |
# ? Jan 24, 2016 05:09 |
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Effectronica posted:Why is it not called an embassy or consulate, rudatron? Because it could gently caress up our relations with China. You see Diplomacy is a complicated thing. Just like me playing Saladin in a video game.
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# ? Jan 24, 2016 05:15 |
Given, That the pro-base posters in this thread smarm needlessly and promiscuously at people that they believe to be wrong, That multiple posters earlier in this thread made statements to the effect that supposed rapes committed by US servicemembers were actually consensual sexual relationships, and that these servicemembers were victims of racism by Okinawan citizens, That the victim in one particular case that was brought up was twelve years old, That none of those posters received the smarm from any other pro-base poster, Resolved, That either pro-base posters believe consensual sexual relationships between twelve-year-olds and adults are possible, Or that pro-base posters believe that the rape of Okinawan civilians, including children, is not a matter of any importance, Or that pro-base posters are incredible cretins who don't read other posts in the thread before responding. Resolved, that the third is believed to be the case by the undersigned poster, and the first and second cases are reproduced here mainly to remind the pro-base posters of the moral abyss they circulate in.
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# ? Jan 24, 2016 05:22 |
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Yeah, but nobody cares. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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# ? Jan 24, 2016 05:27 |
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Remember everyone supporting any bases in Okinawa makes you a pedophile supporter. As does standing up for Taiwan and not tsating Japan is worse then the Glorious workers paradise PRC. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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# ? Jan 24, 2016 05:32 |
Boogaleeboo posted:Yeah, but nobody cares. This is why the populace of Okinawa wants the bases off of Okinawa. Americans rape, murder, and assault them. Other Americans don't care. They believe Okinawans to be subhumans. So, we basically have to ask, "Are we, the people who are OK with our fellows committing child molestation, rape, and murder, morally capable of doing good? Are we capable of doing right when we are OK with so much wrong?" Or, rather, those of us with souls do. The servants of evil don't really think much, do you?
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# ? Jan 24, 2016 05:33 |
Crowsbeak posted:Remember everyone supporting any bases in Okinawa makes you a pedophile supporter. As does standing up for Taiwan and not sating Japan is worse then the Glorious workers paradise PRC. Re-read the post, and don't lie about what it says next time.
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# ? Jan 24, 2016 05:34 |
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The beauty is that you can use the same logic to demand that all muslims/whites/men apologize for all terrorism/colonialism/rape.Effectronica posted:You're talking about that because you're morally and intellectually stunted, and need reasons to justify the rape and murder of Okinawans by American jarheads, so you conclude that the US Navy is incapable of trashing the single carrier and 50 destroyers of the entire PLA/N without those Marines having a good ol' time in the sunny Ryukyus. Chomskyan posted:Your posts are so stupid. Of course I'm not taking the US at its word, but you can't just ignore the US's official position on Taiwan (this is what you were doing).
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# ? Jan 24, 2016 05:36 |
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Effectronica posted:Re-read the post, and don't lie about what it says next time. You know if you don't want to be misrepresented you probably should consider not doing so yourself. Just some food for thought.
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# ? Jan 24, 2016 05:40 |
rudatron posted:The beauty is that you can use the same logic to demand that all muslims/whites/men apologize for all terrorism/colonialism/rape. I'm not demanding an apology, you subliterate. I am pointing out how you care more about someone calling the ROC the DPRC than about rape apologism. I wouldn't dare to demand an apology for that, because it would cause you to keel over dead. Now you're talking about a prospective invasion of Japan, in response to a post about the United States Navy fighting the People's Liberation Army - Navy over an invasion of Taiwan. I won't demand honesty either, because it would cause you to give up the ghost. I will, however, ignore your irrelevant comparison, in the hopes that I can make you keep the lies and evasions down to more normal levels. If you support the US military presence on Okinawa, you have to deal with the American servicemembers brutalizing the local population. Since none of you chucklefucks has done so, I am assuming that you are of the "this is the price of FREEDOM" view, because that's the only view that allows you to avoid engaging with this problem. I won't suggest that you outline your view as to what should/could be done to allow for a more equitable situation, because it would cause you to meet your maker.
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# ? Jan 24, 2016 05:41 |
Crowsbeak posted:You know if you don't want to be misrepresented you probably should consider not doing so yourself. Just some food for thought. Well, if you want to be dishonest, I'll just have to treat you as a compulsive liar, since the moderation staff are not willing to forcibly remove people who boast about how they absolutely will not engage in discussion, and will just engage in lovely metaposting about how since their fee-fees were hurt, they're going to lie from now on.
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# ? Jan 24, 2016 05:43 |
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rudatron posted:Why not? Why can't I do that? Especially since it's not actually relevant to very real and very physical geopolitics here. Red and Black fucked around with this message at 05:52 on Jan 24, 2016 |
# ? Jan 24, 2016 05:50 |
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Effectronica posted:Other Americans don't care. Man gently caress that, the rest of Japan doesn't care. America not giving a poo poo it fucks you over is kind of a gimme, of course it doesn't. When your own country writes you off because they'd rather have the bases than your happiness? Really not you can do there.
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# ? Jan 24, 2016 05:50 |
Boogaleeboo posted:Man gently caress that, the rest of Japan doesn't care. America not giving a poo poo it fucks you over is kind of a gimme, of course it doesn't. When your own country writes you off because they'd rather have the bases than your happiness? Really not you can do there. Why don't you go hang out at Hot Topic instead of posting 2edgy4u nihilism? On the one hand, you'd no longer be posting, and on the other hand, you'd no longer be posting. It's a win-win scenario!
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# ? Jan 24, 2016 05:53 |
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Boogaleeboo posted:Man gently caress that, the rest of Japan doesn't care. America not giving a poo poo it fucks you over is kind of a gimme, of course it doesn't. When your own country writes you off because they'd rather have the bases than your happiness? Really not you can do there. This isn't true actually.
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# ? Jan 24, 2016 05:54 |
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The point is that China is without a doubt the strongest military regional power, and it's also expansionist, so it's no surprise that some of its neighbors, whether they are de jure or de facto states, might want foreign helpin the area.Chomskyan posted:It certainly is relevant. As was noted just a few posts ago, this stance by the US has prevented Taiwan from getting re-recognized at the UN. It has also significantly weakened the security treaty between the US and Taiwan. The US has also blocked Taiwan from acquiring nuclear weapons. If Taiwan had acquired nukes it might be able to actually deter China and declare independence, but the US quashed the program (I fully support the US's decision on this though, Taiwan acquiring nukes would have been too dangerous). The official US policy on Taiwan has real effects, you can't just ignore it. rudatron fucked around with this message at 06:04 on Jan 24, 2016 |
# ? Jan 24, 2016 05:59 |
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Noam Chomsky: First we go the bomb, and that was good, because we love peace and motherhood.
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# ? Jan 24, 2016 06:00 |
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Oh, then good news. I'm sure they'll be gone any day now any everyone will be happy forever.
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# ? Jan 24, 2016 06:01 |
rudatron posted:The point is that China is without a doubt the strongest military regional power, and it's also expansionist, so it's no surprise that some of its neighbors, whether they are de jure or de facto states, might want foreign helpin the area. Are you, "rudatron", willing to go on record and say that the goal of the People's Republic of China is, at a minimum, to invade and annex Japan and violently reintegrate Taiwan, and will not rule out any maximum short of world conquest? Edit: Also, you reversed what Chomskyan said. You seem to be getting so angry that it's affecting your ability to read, or maybe you're just naturally that dumb.
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# ? Jan 24, 2016 06:02 |
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Boogaleeboo posted:Oh, then good news. I'm sure they'll be gone any day now any everyone will be happy forever. So now you fall back on the inevitability of American might?
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# ? Jan 24, 2016 06:09 |
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Seems like they just oppose Abe's idiotic handling of the situation not America helping Japan.
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# ? Jan 24, 2016 06:13 |
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rudatron posted:
rudatron posted:Noam Chomsky: First we go the bomb, and that was good, because we love peace and motherhood. Quoting so you don't try to edit it away later.
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# ? Jan 24, 2016 06:16 |
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My friend, I am not like you. I can accept my mistakes. You do not, you double down for the sake of your own pride.Effectronica posted:Are you, "rudatron", willing to go on record and say that the goal of the People's Republic of China is, at a minimum, to invade and annex Japan and violently reintegrate Taiwan, and will not rule out any maximum short of world conquest? And okay, Chomskyan wants Taiwan to bend over backwards for China, give up its democracy and just be another protectorate of the PRC. Why should it want that? Why should it accept that? If you believe that the Okinawans themselves have a right to self-determinate, and therefore the base shouldn't be there, then you have to acknowledge that Taiwan also has this right, so the PRC shouldn't be acquiesced to, and therefore the bases need to stay there. The only way you can say that the bases need to go, and Taiwan needs to Suck It Up, is if you're a pro-China imperialist. But in the case of Okinawa, it is a part of Japan, Japan has the right to say where the bases should be. If the Japanese government wants to move them to another island or whatever, the US should agree, but Tokyo doesn't care enough to not move them from Okinawa, so at Okinawa they stay. rudatron fucked around with this message at 06:19 on Jan 24, 2016 |
# ? Jan 24, 2016 06:17 |
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SedanChair posted:So now you fall back on the inevitability of American might? That's a mighty strong leap. Oh no, if the Japanese government asked for those bases to be gone I'm 100% certain we would get rid of those bases. There is nothing stopping that from happening, and we would have no recourse if it did. I rather doubt the chances of it happening anytime soon though.
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# ? Jan 24, 2016 06:20 |
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rudatron posted:And okay, Chomskyan wants Taiwan to bend over backwards for China, give up its democracy and just be another protectorate of the PRC.
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# ? Jan 24, 2016 06:21 |
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This post right here: Because while your concern of the entire post is the 'use of force', what's not acknowledged is what the model of governance of Taiwan will be, and who is ultimately sovereign (de facto, not just de jure). And if you want to see the kind of government model the PRC will want for Taiwan, look no further than Hong Kong. Do the Taiwanese people want that? If they do, fine, the US leaves. If they don't, they might want the US to help them. rudatron fucked around with this message at 06:36 on Jan 24, 2016 |
# ? Jan 24, 2016 06:33 |
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Rudatron why are you conflating a lack of military bases on Okinawa with the US abandoning its allies completely? Is it because you are disingenuous or because you're an idiot?
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# ? Jan 24, 2016 06:42 |
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# ? Jun 8, 2024 06:33 |
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rudatron posted:This post right here: China renouncing the use of force and entering peace talks with an entity it doesn't consider a sovereign state is actual a huge concession on their part, so this would not be "bending over backwards for China". None of the concessions proposed for Taiwan involve "giving up democracy" either so that was just an outright lie on your part. So yeah, you did it again. Literally in the first post you made after getting called out the first time.
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# ? Jan 24, 2016 06:44 |