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Roland Jones posted:Actually, how's Cliven Bundy doing post-standoff? I haven't heard of financial ruination visiting him despite his actions, though I suppose it could just be a thing that wasn't focused on. He definitely wasn't ruined over grazing fees because he never had to pay those. If they actually prosecuted him this likely wouldn't have happened in the first place. Supposedly they have been "Building" a case for 2 years but at this point I feel that they have tanked the case for reasons. Laws aren't worth poo poo if you don't enforce them.
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Jan 25, 2016 12:47
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oohhboy posted:If they actually prosecuted him this likely wouldn't have happened in the first place. Supposedly they have been "Building" a case for 2 years but at this point I feel that they have tanked the case for reasons. Laws aren't worth poo poo if you don't enforce them. That's basically my point; the scenario you gave requires them doing a thing that they didn't do in the most similar situation we actually have, so my hopes that they'd do it this time aren't particularly high.
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Jan 25, 2016 13:10
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This is starting to remind me of a Mr. Show sketch. This one in fact [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVHLHfoWEHE#t=4m22s]
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Jan 25, 2016 13:36
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on the bright side this is all probably very good for the Harney County economy. Pizza, booze and hotel sales are through the roof
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Jan 25, 2016 13:39
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RandomPauI posted:This is starting to remind me of a Mr. Show sketch. This one in fact drat, but that's prescient. 
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Jan 25, 2016 14:04
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theflyingorc posted:3 or so of them have been arrested, that we know of, so far As has been pointed out, it's only been 1, and he's already free. So as far as I'm concerned that's 0. And after this it will remain zero. Am I supposed to feel giddy at nothing being done?
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Jan 25, 2016 14:12
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I am extremely suspicious that this inaction is the result of pressure from terrified Democratic politicians. Journalists need to be grinding away at their contacts to find out who is driving this deliberate impotence.
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Jan 25, 2016 14:33
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SedanChair posted:I am extremely suspicious that this inaction is the result of pressure from terrified Democratic politicians. Journalists need to be grinding away at their contacts to find out who is driving this deliberate impotence. Why democratic politicians? We already know that the congressional Republicans have been trying to cripple the ability for the FBI and CIA to track or prosecute right-wing extremists by cutting all funding for such matters to score points with their shrinking base for years now. I'm sure that the narrative of this being a false flag to defame "true patriots" is popular among the slightly less extreme militia movement sympathizers these days.
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Jan 25, 2016 14:57
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Discendo Vox posted:No. As per Prester's earlier post, you're overestimating the cohesion of this group, and the militia movement overall. Most of the people in town at the beginning were with other militia groups that came for the protest immediately before the occupation began. Most of them were peaceful, many were cranks or on the right fringe, some left, some came back, and a number have been sitting in town, stroking their ARs ever since the occupation began. There are a whole subset of crazy fringers in town, who have been there since the occupation started. They've never been to the compound, and some of them have never interacted with the occupiers in any way. I'm not talking a perimeter in the sense of "There's no way you can get past" but rather "If you try and get past us we have a reasonable chance of catching and arresting you", and considering that big rear end river it seems entirely doable, especially if their only alternative is to offroad. Likewise, without blockading roads you have them interacting with the postal service, you have people coming up for day trips, etc. Again, I like to point this out because people seem to be defaulting to this weird idea that there's some avenue where you won't a) be villified and b) have violence. That's why I love people just yelling 'WACO 2.0!' because it means they bought the same bullshit propaganda that it was totally on the feds that McVeigh decided to buy. Armani posted:This is great. Can you share any of your research material/reading recommends? Rick Alan Ross's Cults Inside Out is a good book to start with as it has a huge scope and details dozens of different cults. Seriously, the first 50 pages or so will make you pretty much wish you had no idea about any of it. Ross is HIGHLY controversial so go in understanding that (he's legit assisted in kidnapping people to deprogram them), but when it comes to actually being able to detail a large amount of cults and scenarios he's got a huge breadth of knowledge. Now he does a lot of work with European authorities who are less willing to deal with cult bullshit than the US is. He's also a big part of the reason that Scientology is rightly viewed as a cult and partly responsible for bringing it's practices to light. Likewise, Going Clear is very good as well. Often cults love the title 'new religion' (though not all are cults, just an umbrella many like to sit under) so searching for that will get you some interesting results. A crazy interesting example of people's ability to deny reality: In Philly police found a 18 month old in a suitcase in a suburban neighborhood. They discovered that the culprit was a cult by the name of 1 Mind Ministries led by Toni Ellsberry or "Queen Antoinette" as she liked to be called. She had convinced one of her followers to stop feeding their child and the group supported it. The 18 month old made the unforgivable sin of ending a prayer without saying 'amen'. So the group starved him to death. After the child died, it's mother became VERY stressed about it so Ellsberry told them that if they prayed they could resurrect the baby. They left it's body on a table for days. Once it began to decompose Ellberry had to do SOMETHING, so she tossed the baby and then claimed that god had claimed the child. Weeks after the incident and after the child's mother had been held in custody, the mother agreed to turn on the cult leader with one major condition. If her child came back from the dead, she'd be allowed to recant her entire testimony. Cult leaders thrive on control and narrative. This is why it's often relatively standard practice for members to NEVER be left alone and to only be escorted with other members, even members of the same duration. It's also why usually prolific amounts of firearms are kept on compounds, that way there's constant intimidation to believe. It's also a motif that normal every day things like colors and words get banned. "The Witness Wore Red" is a book about an ex cult member who wore red to her hearing as a massive gently caress you to not having that color allowed on the compound. The leader is going to shape any and all narrative to suit them, that's just a fact of life with cults. Catering to that is patently dumb because you are not dealing with people who give a poo poo about reality in any sense you understand it. The BEST case scenario is you get them to understand the physical reality of "This is here, and this is here" ie "Well I see they lied about my kid being taken to heaven and my kid is clearly dead in front of me...but maybe they're still right and he'll wake up any moment". I will also point out that the change in narrative is contagious to an extent even with non-cult members. See everyone screaming "Waco" here somehow not acknowledging that Waco was the fault of the dude who actually set the loving fire. You would swear from people's tone that what happened was the feds got tired after a day long siege and beat people to death, rather than a 2 month standoff after federal agents trying to serve a warrant were killed ending with Koresh lighting his people on fire. Prestor's reccomendation "The Authoritarians" is a good non-cult read that touches on the same principles of reality denial. Edit: just to be clear, mistakes were definitely made at Waco, the biggest of which was not taking the cult seriously in terms of their use of violence and not arresting Koresh outside the house as he frequently went into town. mugrim fucked around with this message at 15:20 on Jan 25, 2016 |
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Jan 25, 2016 15:08
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https://twitter.com/jjmacnab/status/691515001127866368 Also, don't kill yourselves, guys, we need you to shoot at cops! https://twitter.com/Patztense/status/691630666761519104 Plus: https://twitter.com/blu109/status/691631835076562944
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Jan 25, 2016 16:09
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Okay THERE he is; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBUukVJ71lQ Apparently the defendyourbase.net website was registered to the whitehouse address and so it was taken down. He says that he registered it there so that if "someone wanted to send a bomb because you don't agree with what I say" that it would go to the whitehouse... I liked the DRT box reference in X-Files last night because there HAS to be an FBI dude with a finger on the button of one of those cell phone suppression devices just itching to shut off all communications in the area. Also gently caress Santilli. Once that piece of poo poo is in a dark hole somewhere I'm going to mail him dildos regularly. There's also this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3sQ9Y7RKyk Where they have problems with something flying overhead without lights because "that's not allowed" or something? ChlamydiaJones fucked around with this message at 16:57 on Jan 25, 2016 |
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Jan 25, 2016 16:38
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Roland Jones posted:Actually, how's Cliven Bundy doing post-standoff? I haven't heard of financial ruination visiting him despite his actions, though I suppose it could just be a thing that wasn't focused on. He definitely wasn't ruined over grazing fees because he never had to pay those. There was a good la times story summing up his deal, updated to Malheur, recently. Sum up: absolutely nothing has happened, a few stragglers got minor gun charges due to being so obvious and bad about their law breaking. A goon here said now the feds want no part of it because his ranch is now Disneyland for armed militants and its surrounded by them 24/7. Edit: his first incident with the BLM was in the mid 90's so if they've been building a case for 2 years it has little or nothing to do with his grazing fees. Intel&Sebastian fucked around with this message at 17:16 on Jan 25, 2016 |
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Jan 25, 2016 17:14
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SedanChair posted:I am extremely suspicious that this inaction is the result of pressure from terrified Democratic politicians. Journalists need to be grinding away at their contacts to find out who is driving this deliberate impotence. A.C.E. has spent four decades churning out obedient office drones and the GOP has used its influence to place them all over Federal, State, and local governments. (A.C.E. is not the only program designed for this purpose, it is however the most explicit and likely the most widespread.) I would not be surprised if that reality has contributed towards internal government paralysis in incidents like this where extreme right wingers are involved. As an example, consider that one of the county sheriff's in Oregon just came out in support on the seditionists. The GOP has spent generations training up hardened extremists as a cynical play to create a lockstep voting base. And up until recently it was a highly succesful strategy.
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Jan 25, 2016 17:38
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Prester John posted:The situation in the 90's was quite a bit different from present. To start with, the total pool of potentially radicalized right wingers was far smaller in the 90's. It is larger today because of a combination of social media (the internet did not meaningfully exist when OKC occurred), progress of social causes that are gibbering madness to members of this movement (LGBT rights in particular), the open engagement of religious fanatics by politicians ala Kim Davis, megachurch's incorporating conspiracy theories into their sermons about the "end times" we are living through, and the taking of the Confederate flag from public monuments, just for starters. The President is also black, and that is a big contributing factor as well here. Abner Cadaver II posted:*militia arrests sheriff and besieges FBI HQ* Good effort abner
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Jan 25, 2016 17:49
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IMO quickest way to end this would be to start sending crates of liquor to the refuge.
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Jan 25, 2016 17:51
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Intel&Sebastian posted:There was a good la times story summing up his deal, updated to Malheur, recently. I meant business-wise; are people still doing business with him after all that? Because that was one of the things listed in the post I was responding to.
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Jan 25, 2016 17:58
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It's a shame you can't ship surströmming by air anymore.
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Jan 25, 2016 18:06
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The-Mole posted:IMO quickest way to end this would be to start sending crates of liquor to the refuge. Actually this is not an entirely bad idea. The camp is apparently dry because of Ammon's Mormon beliefs. But I bet plenty of those guys would love an easily concealed hip flask and some decent hooch. Personally, I think sending a crate of Absinthe would be hilarious, if pricey. (You might get better results with a crate of Natty Light with these guys though.)
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Jan 25, 2016 18:10
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The-Mole posted:IMO quickest way to end this would be to start sending crates of liquor to the refuge. Trying to find a website that will deliver peppermint schnapps.
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Jan 25, 2016 18:11
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OAquinas posted:Trying to find a website that will deliver peppermint schnapps. Don't waste schnapps on these guys. If you're looking to mail schnapps then send 'em my way. I'll go occupy a refuge or something.
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Jan 25, 2016 18:23
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Same here, I'll take all the Rumple Minze you got.
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Jan 25, 2016 18:30
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OAquinas posted:Trying to find a website that will deliver peppermint schnapps. I think you mean S'more Schnapps.
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Jan 25, 2016 18:37
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Why not Absinthe?
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Jan 25, 2016 18:38
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http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/videos/a41451/bill-maher-oregon-protesters/ Bill Maher putting in some INCISIVE RHETORIC into the situation.
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Jan 25, 2016 18:40
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SSNeoman posted:http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/videos/a41451/bill-maher-oregon-protesters/ That is a crazy hot take right there. Perhaps the answer is in the mid-*shits pants*
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Jan 25, 2016 18:42
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Crain posted:I think you mean S'more Schnapps. Dammit, you are correct. Still looking... Edit: Hmmm.... http://www.threeolives.com/flavors/smores/
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Jan 25, 2016 18:42
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Crain posted:I think you mean S'more Schnapps. Even after every dumbshit thing South Park's creators have done, that episode is still amazing. VVVVV haha dang! Pope Guilty fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Jan 25, 2016 |
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Jan 25, 2016 18:44
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Doctor Butts posted:Why not Absinthe? Absinthe makes the tarp bro stronger
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Jan 25, 2016 18:44
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SSNeoman posted:http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/videos/a41451/bill-maher-oregon-protesters/ If you're holding college students and real people to the same standard, you're doing it wrong.
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Jan 25, 2016 18:44
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Prester John posted:A.C.E. has spent four decades churning out obedient office drones and the GOP has used its influence to place them all over Federal, State, and local governments. (A.C.E. is not the only program designed for this purpose, it is however the most explicit and likely the most widespread.) I would not be surprised if that reality has contributed towards internal government paralysis in incidents like this where extreme right wingers are involved. As an example, consider that one of the county sheriff's in Oregon just came out in support on the seditionists. You are overestimating the influence of A.C.E. and tipping over into conspiratorial thinking. I am talking about simple pressure from politicians mobbed up with Hillary, who fear that a bloody incident will spell the end of her campaign. I think they are wrong.
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Jan 25, 2016 18:47
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Don't waste booze on these guys,amateurs. If you really want to gently caress with them, have you kid finger paint a letter supporting their cause asking them to make the bad govt stop. Going against them will only strengthen their resolve. They must be pushed to the furthest possible idealism
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Jan 25, 2016 18:57
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Someone at Daily Kos was nice enough to transcribe the video of Ammon's "negotiation" with the FBI, where he patiently explained to the FBI what their actual job is:quote:Ammon Bundy: The FBI does not have, really anything to do with the situation. It is the people, their county, and their land. And, the federal government simply needs to adhere to the constitution of the United States. Adhere to the rules and Article 1.817 and comply.
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Jan 25, 2016 19:00
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"He's so eloquent and well-educated," an unreasonable number of people have said about Ammon Bundy
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Jan 25, 2016 19:00
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Pack it in losers, your should be investigating federal bureaus, not my citizen nightstands!
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Jan 25, 2016 19:01
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As a Millennial I posted:Someone at Daily Kos was nice enough to transcribe the video of Ammon's "negotiation" with the FBI, where he patiently explained to the FBI what their actual job is: This guy's retarded, isn't he.
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Jan 25, 2016 19:03
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As a Millennial I posted:"He's so eloquent and well-educated," an unreasonable number of people have said about Ammon Bundy I think he's eloquent and earnest, and that getting his "message" on national TV would be real bad because he speaks in a way that I think would really really appeal to idiots That doesn't mean that the things he's saying aren't stupid as all hell. edit: The FBI is basically everything these guys hate, considering that they're a huge government force that isn't in any way described in the constitution i look forward to their assertion that they can only investigate certain types of furniture, though. theflyingorc fucked around with this message at 19:07 on Jan 25, 2016 |
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Jan 25, 2016 19:05
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He's only "eloquent" if you think "eloquent" and "polysyllabic" are synonyms. Every big word he cargo-culted from the Constitution is used incorrectly.
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Jan 25, 2016 19:07
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Armani posted:This is great. Can you share any of your research material/reading recommends? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnkqdMS1LkE (seriously)
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Jan 25, 2016 19:12
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As a Millennial I posted:He's only "eloquent" if you think "eloquent" and "polysyllabic" are synonyms. Every big word he cargo-culted from the Constitution is used incorrectly. I'm using the word differently than you are, I think. He SOUNDS like he knows what he's talking about - if you're an idiot. He uses words wrong but his tone and mannerisms, divorced from the content, are very persuasive. If he were aligned with a less-stupid cause I think he'd be a pretty decent spokesperson for it because he's got this calm pleading thing down
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Jan 25, 2016 19:12
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The great communicator.
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