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As a Millennial I posted:Seems callous to me to discount someone's financial problems just because they could escape them by abandoning their entire lifestyle. But we are talking about the guy who said blacks would be better off as slaves than living on welfare, so. Everyone has to face economic realities. The Government isn't there to protect a bunch of white middle class ranchers way of life when we've got people in poor urban neighborhoods getting constantly screwed over by payday loans and other crap. No one's way of life is sacred. What's important is that people have opportunities. These racist assholes still have plenty of other opportunities that don't involve being sov cits, taking up arms against the government, or opining constantly about how black people were better off as cotton pickers. So yes, I will discount their loving worthless struggles all I want.
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Jan 28, 2016 18:18
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Cliven has been treated with kid gloves by the govt for so long that laughing at him for still ending up poor is your civic duty.
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Jan 28, 2016 18:18
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KittyEmpress posted:As a vegetarian I can't wait until we move onwards to our meat free paradise and all these horrible ranchers are left with worthless, pointless land, and their entire lifestyle is made obsolete. Wow I've never met a self righteous vegetarian before.
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Jan 28, 2016 18:19
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Mercury_Storm posted:Anyone know why they didn't just arrest him right away? It seemed like they waiting for him to offer to try convince the women/children to get out of the compound because they grabbed him right after that. Also why were they so many heavily armed dudes there for the arrest? There were heavily-armed guys everywhere at that point. I would speculate that the feds were strategising over who to arrest when in order to make the process go as smoothly as possible (what would be the reaction at the compound to arresting Santilli now be?) and in any case wanted to get as much information out of him as possible while he still thought that he was a free man. Probably hadn't escaped their attention that he didn't volunteer any information about Cooper doing whatever ill-advised stuff he was doing when he was asked if there was anyone he was worried about.
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Jan 28, 2016 18:20
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stillvisions posted:My long-standing theory is it was done entirely as a controlled scam in the 80s and early 90s when there were a handful of hucksters who had been known conmen cris-crossing the country selling this "one weird trick to let you not pay taxes", but when the internet came about true believers/suckers began sharing it to the internet and it grew out of control. Kinda like how the PUA stuff all grew out of those creepy "seduce women with this one weird trick" infomercials. There were individual weirdos around but nothing to spread and amplify. A good theory, but the sovcit movement traces all the way back to Reconstruction opposition. Its modern title owes itself to white supremacists in the 1960s, who developed it as a response to the civil rights movement, and definitely believed the idea. The mutation effect does occur, due to the looseness and general fact-averse nature of the ideology, but people involved are generally sincere. A word on sovcit "gurus": like peddlers of many other conspiracy theory products, bear in mind that most of these people do, in fact, believe some amount of their own ideology. It can be difficult to understand from the outside looking in, but folks operating in conspiracy theory thoughtsystems have a really incredible capacity to tolerate cognitive dissonance. This includes believing things they make up to sell to other people. Many of the major figures are mentally ill. Jacobin posted:This is true- there was a Canadian Judge who authored this amazing long judgment that is like a full history of the sovcit movement Ill see if I can find it. This article, "too weird for The Wire" is an excellent, more manageable lay-facing account that describes the history of the sovcit movement and narrates a recent example of the sort of serious problems it can pose. Some useful grafs from that article: quote:In 1957, President Eisenhower sent 1,200 troops from the 101st Airborne Division to Little Rock, Arkansas, so that nine black students could safely enter a previously all-white high school. The landmark Civil Rights Act followed in 1964. On the problems of sovcit "effectiveness", in the case of four defendants who collaborated on a series of planned killings, culminating in executing a woman in the street in front of her children: quote:...None of these arguments had a prayer of overturning the charges. But they had an impact nonetheless. They made a long, complex trial longer and more complex still. Seeking the death penalty is rightfully arduous—it requires legal justifications for the penalty itself, enhanced scrutiny over jury selection, an additional penalty phase after a conviction, and so on. Conspiracy charges create further legal burdens. And the way Mitchell et al chose to deal with their attorneys— not dismissing them outright, but asking them to sign a peculiar “contract” that would essentially prohibit them from mounting a defense—created more problems. If the defendants weren’t dealt with carefully, they might be able to appeal by claiming that they had been inadequately represented. The last thing Judge Davis wanted was for an appellate court to throw out a verdict and send the case back to Baltimore to start all over again. According to a source close to the court, dealing with the flesh and blood defense has been “one of the greatest challenges Davis has faced in twenty years as a judge, by far.”
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Jan 28, 2016 18:20
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What does ranching do that "factory farming" doesn't? Besides fulfilling the demand for grass-fed cattle, I can't see why it can't be scaled up so as to minimize the number of actual people doing it for a greater yield in cost efficiency. Essentially, incorporate a number of individual family owned ranches into a single mega-ranch and then delegate the actual ranching while reducing the overall management and maintenance costs.
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Jan 28, 2016 18:20
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HMS Beagle posted:Wow I've never met a self righteous vegetarian before. Every single rancher I've ever heard of has been a poo poo person, who either uses child labor, refuses to pay taxes, illegally uses other people's land, or a mix of all of these, always indignantly. I don't eat vegetarian because I think these people are bad, but I certainly am happy that their losses are happening, and do not affect me.
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Jan 28, 2016 18:22
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And you all wonder why these guys feel oppressed and bitter enough to try and revolt.
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Jan 28, 2016 18:22
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Please note my emphasis on the word "feel."
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Jan 28, 2016 18:23
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usbombshell posted:Was Pete Santilli the same guy who had the call-in livestream during that failed Million Man March on Washington a few years back? Not the actual Million Man March of course, some Tea Party (?) thing where like a handful of morons walked around town with Gadsden Flags while kids on field trips gawked at them and some guy in a trailer somewhere chain smoked and narrated? Does anyone know what I am talking about? I don't know that event, but that sounds exactly like something Pete would do.
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Jan 28, 2016 18:23
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MariusLecter posted:He says from his comfy home with a scotch or some poo poo in his hand.
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Jan 28, 2016 18:24
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As a Millennial I posted:And you all wonder why these guys feel oppressed and bitter enough to try and revolt. Boohoo I refuse to adapt and so I will break dozens of laws constantly while complaining that if only slavery was still around I'd be profitable but America hates me  gently caress yeah I hate these people when they act like this.
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Jan 28, 2016 18:25
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usbombshell posted:Was Pete Santilli the same guy who had the call-in livestream during that failed Million Man March on Washington a few years back? Not the actual Million Man March of course, some Tea Party (?) thing where like a handful of morons walked around town with Gadsden Flags while kids on field trips gawked at them and some guy in a trailer somewhere chain smoked and narrated? Does anyone know what I am talking about? Was this the one with the truckers?
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Jan 28, 2016 18:26
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KittyEmpress posted:As a vegetarian I can't wait until we move onwards to our meat free paradise and all these horrible ranchers are left with worthless, pointless land, and their entire lifestyle is made obsolete. Do you own anything metal, such as a car? Coal mining isn't going away even if better energy sources are utilized as long as we need steel.
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Jan 28, 2016 18:26
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnMP7OsqWq8 All of it really, but especially starting at 4:00
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Jan 28, 2016 18:27
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SlipUp posted:Do you own anything metal, such as a car? This is true but production, much like oil production for plastics only would, could be scaled back massively if we moved away from it as an energy source, which would still result in a glut of mines either slowing down or just shutting down, which would lose hundreds or thousands of people jobs. Many people use this loss of jobs to show how we shouldn't find better energy sources, and I think that's dumb. But yes, in a perfect world, we would sponsor retraining and teach people to contribute to a society that doesn't need their years of coal mining experience.
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Jan 28, 2016 18:28
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Kazak_Hstan posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnMP7OsqWq8 Murder suicide pact in action. Holy poo poo.
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Jan 28, 2016 18:28
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Xelkelvos posted:What does ranching do that "factory farming" doesn't? Besides fulfilling the demand for grass-fed cattle, I can't see why it can't be scaled up so as to minimize the number of actual people doing it for a greater yield in cost efficiency. Essentially, incorporate a number of individual family owned ranches into a single mega-ranch and then delegate the actual ranching while reducing the overall management and maintenance costs. That's mostly what's been happening, in my understanding. I know there's at least one guy in Texas who owns more of Texas than the total land area of other states.
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Jan 28, 2016 18:31
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KittyEmpress posted:This is true but production, much like oil production for plastics only would, could be scaled back massively if we moved away from it as an energy source, which would still result in a glut of mines either slowing down or just shutting down, which would lose hundreds or thousands of people jobs. I don't disagree, but I do want to point out the coal used for steel is chemically different from the coal used for energy, so those mines wouldn't be affected in the slightest. Also, even if we embraced alternative energy, we would likely just step up our exports of fossil fuels.
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Jan 28, 2016 18:32
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Re: Pete going to try and "get the kids out" I sincerely doubt he had honest in tensions there. He saw those kids as a way out. If he got to those kids he could play hero and leverage that against getting arrested. At least in his mind. He knew he was hosed as soon as poo poo started going down. It's like starting a school yard beat down, but then making sure you're the guy who drags the poor kid who got the beating to the nurse's office so you can pretend you were just trying to help in the aftermath.
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Jan 28, 2016 18:32
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As a Millennial I posted:This was right outside the courthouse. Pete went to them, they didn't come after him. As for why it took a minute, who knows? Maybe they didn't even realize he was one of the guys they were looking for at first. It probably took a few minutes for the guards at the courthouse to pass along word that Santilli was with them and for word to get back to just arrest him there. The guards at the courthouse probably didn't have the authority to simply detain him on the spot so they kept him talking and humored his offer while they waited for orders to work their way through the chain of command.
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Jan 28, 2016 18:33
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Kazak_Hstan posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnMP7OsqWq8 I...can't tell which one's which.
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Jan 28, 2016 18:34
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KittyEmpress posted:Every single rancher I've ever heard of has been a poo poo person, who either uses child labor, refuses to pay taxes, illegally uses other people's land, or a mix of all of these, always indignantly. As a guy who grew up on a ranch, who thinks that people like the bundy clan are scum, gently caress you and the horse you rode in on, buddy. I'm going to eat twice as many steaks. Not to spite you. Just that cows are delicious.
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Jan 28, 2016 18:34
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Crain posted:Re: Pete going to try and "get the kids out" The guy was almost in tears in the car. Of course it's possible that was all an act, but to me that car ride felt like the first time I'd ever seen Pete as his honest self.
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Jan 28, 2016 18:35
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As a Millennial I posted:And you all wonder why these guys feel oppressed and bitter enough to try and revolt. Let them try they will be smashed.
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Jan 28, 2016 18:35
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Video from this morning from the compound: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URlOAAvwRhg edit: This morning meaning about 20 minutes ago.
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Jan 28, 2016 18:35
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Perfectly Safe posted:There were heavily-armed guys everywhere at that point. Yeah, if you listen to the conservation the cops are trying to get some information out of Pete about how many people are at the refuge and who is a real threat. Pete doesn't give them anything and they arrest him. It seems weird to criticize the cops for taking 3 whole minutes to arrest a guy. That time could have been spent with someone saying "Wait, don't we have a warrant for that guy? Look that up." Or it could have been spent saying "Do you think the guys in the truck will freak out like that other guy?" 3 minutes isn't really a long time to just do your due diligence.
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Jan 28, 2016 18:37
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theflyingorc posted:Video from this morning from the compound: just finished it, and it's unfair to arrest one person because this protest was nice and people in Ferguson were NOT nice and had bad intentions
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Jan 28, 2016 18:38
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theflyingorc posted:Video from this morning from the compound: What a loving rear end in a top hat comparing themselves to 'those people in Ferguson,' and then claiming the moral high ground by suggesting at least they had peaceful intentions. I'm mean sure we brought guns, but those were for self-defence or whatever!
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Jan 28, 2016 18:39
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As a Millennial I posted:And you all wonder why these guys feel oppressed and bitter enough to try and revolt. Also stop making excuses for them, wa waa the veterinarians isn't a reason to have a loving armed standoff.
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Jan 28, 2016 18:40
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Tesseraction posted:A freeman on his own gland? Tei posted:This is interesting. So they are somewhat between homeless and freebies that want free poo poo. Hahaha...
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Jan 28, 2016 18:41
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theflyingorc posted:just finished it, and it's unfair to arrest one person because this protest was nice and people in Ferguson were NOT nice and had bad intentions I can't with all this "man, we were just peacefully camping! Why did the FBI have to make our armed camping trip violent!? We were just calling for the death of cops for a month! Hold on, let me move my explosives." I hope they all get a kick in the balls when they turn themselves in.
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Jan 28, 2016 18:42
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PK loving SUBBAN posted:What a loving rear end in a top hat comparing themselves to 'those people in Ferguson,' and then claiming the moral high ground by suggesting at least they had peaceful intentions. They're just camping!
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Jan 28, 2016 18:42
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Kazak_Hstan posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnMP7OsqWq8 What a surprise, the guy who was openly calling for the murder of police yesterday changes his tune to 'come on guys, we're just camping, this isn't fair!
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Jan 28, 2016 18:42
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As a Millennial I posted:The guy was almost in tears in the car. Of course it's possible that was all an act, but to me that car ride felt like the first time I'd ever seen Pete as his honest self. Call me a jaded rear end in a top hat but I saw those tears as for himself. He was crying because Cooper was about to gently caress Pete (even more) by being every bit as insane as Pete had egged him on to be.
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Jan 28, 2016 18:43
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red19fire posted:What a surprise, the guy who was openly calling for the murder of police yesterday changes his tune to 'come on guys, we're just camping, this isn't fair! Look, he was just being ironic like those times he supporting Nazis and ISIS. Why don't you get his sense of humor, man?
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Jan 28, 2016 18:43
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red19fire posted:What a surprise, the guy who was openly calling for the murder of police yesterday changes his tune to 'come on guys, we're just camping, this isn't fair! I guess he never solved the problem of his magazine not fitting the other guys rifles despite taking the same bullets.
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Jan 28, 2016 18:43
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I'm not saying their complaints are legitimate. Just that pointing and laughing, or calling for them to be replaced by factory farms, isn't helping their persecution complex.
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Jan 28, 2016 18:43
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As a Millennial I posted:I'm not saying their complaints are legitimate. Just that pointing and laughing, or calling for them to be replaced by factory farms, isn't helping their persecution complex. Well nothing really helps a persecution complex.
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Jan 28, 2016 18:45
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Crain posted:Call me a jaded rear end in a top hat but I saw those tears as for himself. He was crying because Cooper was about to gently caress Pete (even more) by being every bit as insane as Pete had egged him on to be. Oh, Pete was just panicking. I mean, I'm sure Pete is enough of a human not to want children killed but he wasn't worried about their safety until all hell broke loose. He's just a douchebag who spent a month puffing his chest and daring the FBI to do something, and then when they finally did he peed his pants and wanted to go home. The fact that some of the guys actually WANTED this sincerely just scared the hell out of him, even though that just means he thought they were as full of poo poo as he was for the last month.
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Jan 28, 2016 18:45
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