|
ToxicSlurpee posted:That's actually a common (and very stupid) belief relating to war, too. The most idiotic thing these III% idiots do is assume that wars are won by the dudes with the guns. These are all very good points that a Narrativist will ignore . They design their lives to comport to the fantasy in their heads, not to comport to observable reality. As you can see from their clear absence of strategic thinkung, they also lack an appreciation for any aspects of war that are not glorified. Stories do not get told about grunts ferrying water around behind the front lines, so Narrativists often have no concept of the importance of logistical consideration. They all envision themselves holding the line while rounds pepper their position. They think war is waiting for your enemy to wander clumsily into your gun sights, and then you gun him and 28 of his comrades down. It never occurs to them that a real enemy thinks , they imagine their enemies are as tunnel visioned on getting into a heroic battle as they are. They do not imagine that their enemy will try very hard to avoid putting themselves in a vulnerable position, and when an enemy defeats them by exploiting one of their blindspots they interpret it as the enemy cheating somehow.
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2016 16:30
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 23:06 |
|
theflyingorc posted:SovCits are all over in rural areas. They aren't even constrained by international borders. According to my friend at the Scottish Environmental Protection Agency they've had an upsurge in contact with SovCits in the last few weeks, seemingly inspired by the events in Oregon.
|
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2016 16:32
|
|
|
Leofish posted:There is not an ironicat big enough for these out-of-Staters thinking that the counter protests are filled up with peopled who were "bused in" to make the opposition look bigger. The citizens of Burns have been telling the militias to go home back when this was about a couple of guys peacefully agreeing to serve the rest of a jail sentence that a judge had previously, illegally, not given them. The dudes who prompted this entire loving debacle wanted nothing to do with these fucks, and no one else in the town does either, but they're so convinced that what they're doing is what The People want. "The People" in this context translates to "Everyone Who Agrees With Me". These guys don't care about the town or even about Finicum (not even enough to learn anything about him beyond "he was a rancher/patriot"). All they care about is that they now have some sort of excuse to get into the big battle with the government that they've wanted for so long. It's an utterly self-centered, delusional viewpoint that allows them to blow off any dissent or the views of anyone who disagrees with them as "obvious" fakes while still feeling like heroes. It's completely repulsive and childish display, but at not at all unusual for the sort of people who was willing to hold up taking over an empty bird sanctuary as the first shot of a revolution. They just needed something to rally around so they could be safe as a mob. It'd be laughable if not for the fact that they're all armed zealots. Prester Jane posted:These are all very good points that a Narrativist will ignore . They design their lives to comport to the fantasy in their heads, not to comport to observable reality. As you can see from their clear absence of strategic thinkung, they also lack an appreciation for any aspects of war that are not glorified. Stories do not get told about grunts ferrying water around behind the front lines, so Narrativists often have no concept of the importance of logistical consideration. They all envision themselves holding the line while rounds pepper their position. They think war is waiting for your enemy to wander clumsily into your gun sights, and then you gun him and 28 of his comrades down. It never occurs to them that a real enemy thinks , they imagine their enemies are as tunnel visioned on getting into a heroic battle as they are. They do not imagine that their enemy will try very hard to avoid putting themselves in a vulnerable position, and when an enemy defeats them by exploiting one of their blindspots they interpret it as the enemy cheating somehow. That handily explains why Finicum believed that he could outdraw the Feds like his twisted little story. Unfortunately, the belief in the glory of battle means that any one of these fools could potentially pull the trigger in desperate hopes that their fantasy will become real while they're together. Geostomp fucked around with this message at 16:36 on Feb 2, 2016 |
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2016 16:33
|
|
|
Prester Jane posted:There is no plan beyond "winning". There is no concept of long term strategic thought here. They just want to make their stand and if they happen to win they will worry about what to do about it then, and not before. And the retards they vote into congress are exactly the same. I think it was the CR/Debt ceiling standoff where Obama called their bluff and said 'ok, you get everything you want' and they STILL refused and one idiot tea partier congressman actually told a reporter in a televised interview that they didn't know what they wanted but they had to get something. He didn't know what the goal was aside from they had to beat Obama. Edit: this idiot: http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/gop-congressman-says-he-doesn-t-know-what-republicans-want-in-shutdown-fight "We have to get something out of this. And I don't even know what that is". Because "we're not going to disrespected" Toasticle fucked around with this message at 16:41 on Feb 2, 2016 |
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2016 16:35
|
|
|
kartikeya posted:
Oh yes, PLEASE do this, Cliven.  The guy gets off scott-free the first time around, and instead of counting his blessings, he decides to push his luck. Would have been nice if he was jailed two years ago, but hey, better late than never.
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2016 16:39
|
|
Tell me more about these intimidating suit wearing bike riders.
|
Toasticle posted:And the retards they vote into congress are exactly the same. I think it was the CR/Debt ceiling standoff where Obama called their bluff and said 'ok, you get everything you want' and they STILL refused and one idiot tea partier congressman actually told a reporter in a televised interview that they didn't know what they wanted but they had to get something. Cruz, the guy who was most vehement about the shutdown, isn't a zealot like his voters. He knew drat well it would do nothing useful. He just also knew that his supporters are fervent narrativists who would see him fighting against the "enemy" and his "socialist" plans, making himself look better in their eyes. Cruz is a self-interested manipulator who knows how to get zealots up in arms for power. Which is probably more dangerous in the long run since it encourages them by harming everyone on a national level.
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2016 16:40
|
|
|
Skinty McEdger posted:They aren't even constrained by international borders. According to my friend at the Scottish Environmental Protection Agency they've had an upsurge in contact with SovCits in the last few weeks, seemingly inspired by the events in Oregon. Hell's bells, what do these lunatics want to do in Scotland?! It's bad enough we had Trump and his golf course.
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2016 16:41
|
|
|
Skinty McEdger posted:They aren't even constrained by international borders. According to my friend at the Scottish Environmental Protection Agency they've had an upsurge in contact with SovCits in the last few weeks, seemingly inspired by the events in Oregon. Yup! They're basically in every English-speaking country, and really like to source the US constitution for argument, regardless of where they are. I have no idea if they're in other parts of Europe or anything. Toasticle posted:And the retards they vote into congress are exactly the same. I think it was the CR/Debt ceiling standoff where Obama called their bluff and said 'ok, you get everything you want' and they STILL refused and one idiot tea partier congressman actually told a reporter in a televised interview that they didn't know what they wanted but they had to get something.
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2016 16:41
|
|
|
theflyingorc posted:Yup! They're basically in every English-speaking country, and really like to source the US constitution for argument, regardless of where they are. I have no idea if they're in other parts of Europe or anything. From Meads v. Meads (a Canadian case), on the subject of U.S. law in other countries: [26] Mr. Meads stated that his birth certificate has an associated bond with large amounts of money that could easily discharge in full the claims advanced by Ms. Meads. He said this Court could order that payment. He then attempted to provide me with an envelope, presumably containing documents. Mr. Meads said the contents of the envelope had been “filed internationally”: a UCC filing, a Canadian filing, a commercial security agreement, an identity bond, “actual and constructive notices”, hold harmless and identity agreements, non-negotiable security agreements, an affidavit of his status, a copyright and trade-mark of his name contract, and definitions of the words used in those documents. “UCC” means the “Uniform Commercial Code”, which is U.S. commercial legislation. [27] I refused the envelope, and noted that if the envelope was abandoned then I would put those materials in the garbage. I reassured Mr. Meads that I will apply the laws of Alberta and Canada, and that while he is in Court, he will follow the Court’s rules. Mr. Meads’ reply was that was “unacceptable”, and he claimed that the “UCC” is “universal law”.
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2016 16:43
|
|
|
David fry you are the rock upon which I found my revolution.
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2016 16:43
|
|
|
theflyingorc posted:SovCits are all over in rural areas. Edit: Thinking some more on it, I identify Southern bigots as identifying with existing power structures and resisting upheaval and invasion (in the form of "carpetbaggers" and "uppity" nonwhites). And they believe in taking collective action to regain control of society, whether that's segregation laws or lynch mobs. Whereas I identify Sovcits as people who are paranoid about existing power structures coming to steal what they've built for themselves. And they resist by "taking a stand" in relative isolation. It's a difference in outlook that makes a lot of sense when you're comparing a more densely populated, more historied region to a sparsely populated frontier region. The Moorish Law sovcits are definitely an outlier, though. prefect posted:Meads v. Meads Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 17:19 on Feb 2, 2016 |
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2016 16:44
|
|
|
theflyingorc posted:That's...a bit different. Not entirely, but congressmen are mostly attempting to get re-elected, not to accomplish things - so there can actually be a purpose to just "winning" - they get votes. Of course it's pandering to their base but it's the same "We need to win" with no idea what that even means.
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2016 16:48
|
|
|
Samovar posted:Hell's bells, what do these lunatics want to do in Scotland?! It's bad enough we had Trump and his golf course. Well, you see, it turns out that only 3% of scots actually fought against the english...
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2016 16:50
|
|
Samovar posted:Hell's bells, what do these lunatics want to do in Scotland?! It's bad enough we had Trump and his golf course. The same poo poo as in the US mostly. They hate the regulations on land use and management, hate public owned land and claim that they should have the rights to use it as they see fit. Also they don't like paying taxes or land fees and refuse to acknowledge the Scottish Authorities existence. They apparently also really really hate wind farms for some reason. Edit: If you hear a Scottish person quote Blacks Law then you have found yourself a Freeman of The Land. Skinty McEdger fucked around with this message at 16:58 on Feb 2, 2016 |
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2016 16:52
|
|
|
Mr Interweb posted:Oh yes, PLEASE do this, Cliven. by "taking control" he means he is issuing strongly worded letters and instructions to the people left from the comfort of his home
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2016 17:00
|
|
|
kartikeya posted:
ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL 
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2016 17:17
|
|
|
evilweasel posted:by "taking control" he means he is issuing strongly worded letters and instructions to the people left from the comfort of his home Even so, this should be enough to qualify as aiding and abetting, shouldn't it?
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2016 17:19
|
|
|
I never looked at the Wikipedia SovCit talk page before today. Goddamn these people are crazy.
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2016 17:26
|
|
|
evilweasel posted:by "taking control" he means he is issuing strongly worded letters and instructions to the people left from the comfort of his home I do wonder whether Cliven actually leaves his home. I know he's got his little army of bodyguards on his ranch, and it's sort of surprising that someone who is "taking charge" is not on the scene. I would find it satisfying to know that he is afraid to go out in case he gets arrested.
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2016 17:41
|
|
|
Geostomp posted:That handily explains why Finicum believed that he could outdraw the Feds like his twisted little story. Unfortunately, the belief in the glory of battle means that any one of these fools could potentially pull the trigger in desperate hopes that their fantasy will become real while they're together. Also explains why they're so upset that the Feds arrested them and that it was somehow an ambush and illegal even though all the people had felony charges against them and it was perfectly legal to arrest them but since the FBI basically outsmarted all these people they're super upset and think it's unfair. The sovcit thing isn't unique to the west or rural areas even but the land component to this basically comes down to people living in rural areas without a lot of interaction outside of their small communities and yeah the government owns a lot of land out there, but for the most part it's not particularly great and rich land just waiting to be used efficiently, but when you have a ton of cattle that require a ton of land to graze and you have to pay some small amount to the government to graze it on their land and you see no one else "using" the land except yourself you start getting annoyed about it and blah blah. Whatever, that part is somewhat understandable in a "I can wrap my head around that reasoning" kind of way. Rural people living a fairly isolated lifestyle feel like they should be able to use all the land around them that they perceive is not being used, whatever. What's scary is some of those people being enticed by the radical anti-government groups into open rebellion. Finnicum paid his grazing fees and all right up until Cliven Bundy started his bullshit and got off scott free from the feds. Finnicum came back from that essentially radicalized, going from maybe "well I don't like having to pay grazing fees but whatever" to "the government isn't allowed to own land and gold fringed flags and admiralty court and blah blah" Basically...the BLM (as I think most of the interactions between these ranchers and the Federal government is probably through the BLM) probably is going to need to do a much better job going forward being friendly and working with rural folks who might be at risk of radicalizing along these lines. Or basically, the feds need to take notice and give the BLM the resources to do a better job, and they need to not let shitheads like Cliven Bundy get away with poo poo and start openly fanning the flames . That all won't stop the militia people or all that but one thing this land issue (well it's not really an issue that's up for real debate, the government owns the land end of story the supreme court has upheld that) has done is give an easy focus for all of these people to come out of the woodwork and make a stand against the government under a thin veil of legtimacy
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2016 17:41
|
|
|
i'm pro-radicalization. let's let everyone who's susceptible to radicalization radicalize, attempt something stupid, and get arrested
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2016 17:48
|
|
|
theflyingorc posted:SovCits are all over in rural areas. Sov Cit beliefs are deeply entrenched in prisons right now. So any community with a substantial prison population is going to have a lot of sov cit believers. E: Also, RE the residents of Burns. From the Eastern Oregonians I've talked to recently, early views of the occupation were split, some liked the idea (distrust of the federal government is insanely high out there, it is part of the rural Oregonian culture for a long list of reasons). A slight to moderate majority thought the occupation was a bunch of fuckup idiots playing soldier at a bird refuge. Distrust of the government is something most people out there feel some amount of (justifiably insofar as the federal government hasn't been able to help the region out of a decades-long massive economic slump and all the bright kids get the gently caress out as soon as humanly possible). That said, 'live and let live' is an even bigger principle out there. If you own your land and aren't impacting anyone else, you will literally be 50 miles+ from anyone who gives a single gently caress what you do. That changes really, really quickly once you start impacting peoples' lives and livelihoods. It's hard to emphasize that part enough. On that note, your average Eastern Oregonian (from those two counties) is probably better armed than most of these militiamen (and likely a better shot, hunter, tracker, forager, etc. Similarly protecting your loved ones is a major loving value out there (people who live in the rural parts of the county are often 20-60 minutes from any law enforcement turning up if called, if not much longer if they're already dealing with something). My point in giving this weird background on the area is to emphasize that these militia bumblefucks are one misaimed gun barrel at someone's wife away from some crazy poo poo happening. Less drastically, if they don't hold up the 'and let live' part of the deal, they're going to be insanely unwelcome very quickly. I know this dynamic has been present the entire time, but now that the focus is off Malheur, we're definitely into a new stage of this where they're in and infinitely better position to get the locals (many of whom have some shreds of sympathy for their cause) to utterly turn against them. A last little point, and I'm speaking here as a native Oregonian and someone who has slept on the ground out in that area: these guys come off as seriously inept wannabe-outdoorsmen. People who pull this poo poo (even without militia involved) are a local laughingstock. What kind of dumbshit idiot goes out into rural Oregon in the height of winter without adequate food or warm clothing. That's so utterly basic that for them to not grasp that they need more than hooded sweatshirts is... alarming on a level that I lack the words to describe. The rugged individualist that knows the land and hunts and fishes and all that poo poo that many/most of them imagine themselves to be in their own heads is basically your average rural Oregonian. Fakers out there stand out like a sore thumb and are a running joke even when they aren't running around with guns pretending to be judges. /rant Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Feb 2, 2016 |
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2016 17:51
|
|
|
Sovereign Citizens have a very flexible definition of "success." A judge who had one frivolously tazed is getting convicted for it: https://twitter.com/jjmacnab/status/694551783335538688 And you know they'll count this as a win for their movement.
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2016 17:54
|
|
|
atomicthumbs posted:i'm pro-radicalization. let's let everyone who's susceptible to radicalization radicalize, attempt something stupid, and get arrested I would agree with you if it weren't for the fact that these assholes are generally packing heat.
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2016 17:56
|
|
|
You know, I don't understand why these sovcit types hate socialism so much. I mean, the rich propping up unprofitable businesses seems like the perfect thing for them, since I think statistics are that 90% of ranches and farms would be unprofitable without government breaks and encouragement. We should just give them what they want, remove all laws that 'interfere' with their rights, including all those nice tax breaks and other things built to literally encourage them to still exist in an environment where all of them would shut down otherwise. Then in a few years when they are destitute we can ask them if they'd like to go on welfare! Because subsidies are the only reason they exist KittyEmpress fucked around with this message at 18:22 on Feb 2, 2016 |
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2016 17:58
|
|
|
As a Millennial I posted:Sovereign Citizens have a very flexible definition of "success." A judge who had one frivolously tazed is getting convicted for it: Amusingly, nothing would have happened if it had remained a local issue. It was only when the feds stepped in that it was actively pursued.
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2016 18:00
|
|
|
KittyEmpress posted:You know, I don't understand why these sovcit types hate socialism so much. I mean, the rich propping up unprofitable businesses seems like the perfect thing for them, since I think statistics are that 90% of ranches and farms would be unprofitable without government breaks and encouragement. The key tenet of strong libertarianism, which SovCits at least somewhat are, is one sentence - "I am a good person and can be trusted." It is completely intolerable to them that the government does not recognize their innate virtue. Their greatest fear is that the government will stop them from doing something when they have a "good reason" to do so. Unlike those CRIMINALS, when I break the law, I was justified. I had a really good reason. So they're for deregulation from top to bottom, because they can't accept the fact that the government cannot distinguish who are the "good ones" and must apply the law fairly to everyone. They don't want banking regulation because they always picture themselves as the one being limited, and that's ridiculous, why shouldn't I be able to X, I'm a good person. *This of course ignores the fact that these people are often absolutely the worst people imaginable.
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2016 18:28
|
|
|
Halloween Jack posted:Edit: Thinking some more on it, I identify Southern bigots as identifying with existing power structures and resisting upheaval and invasion (in the form of "carpetbaggers" and "uppity" nonwhites). And they believe in taking collective action to regain control of society, whether that's segregation laws or lynch mobs. Whereas I identify Sovcits as people who are paranoid about existing power structures coming to steal what they've built for themselves. And they resist by "taking a stand" in relative isolation. It's a difference in outlook that makes a lot of sense when you're comparing a more densely populated, more historied region to a sparsely populated frontier region. Southern bigots often are paranoid about existing power structures coming to shake up their nice established order. The racism and bigotry prevalent in the South often happened with the support of the local authorities, and therefore the various steps toward equality from 1865 to 1964 typically had to be enforced by state or federal authorities, over the objections of local authorities. Also, voter fraud, voter tampering, voter intimidation, and straight-up ballot box tampering were commonplace in attempts to keep black voters from having a say. And if a black or pro-equality candidate managed to win anyway, it wasn't uncommon for a mob or militia to form and severely escalate matters - for example, in Louisiana, a white militia once invaded New Orleans to depose the newly-elected Republican governor, defeating the police by force and occupying the state government for several days before fleeing in the face of federal troops sent to restore order. Since local politicians, businessmen, other assorted elites, and law enforcement were almost always white supremacists prior to the massive political realignment caused by "you have to let your substantial black populations vote and own property now...or else", there was heavy resistance to equality, and democracy often had to be imposed be federal troops enforcing the decisions of Republican judges. The SovCit principle of believing federal authority to be illegitimate has real roots in the struggles of Reconstruction where citizens' militias (typically Confederate veterans who still had their guns and remembered their training) resisted federal power by force.
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2016 18:31
|
|
|
As a Millennial I posted:Sovereign Citizens have a very flexible definition of "success." A judge who had one frivolously tazed is getting convicted for it: Use of stun cuffs or belts in the courtroom is barbaric and I don't care if sovcits get to think they "won" because a judge was punished for using one inappropriately. They should be punished for using them at all.
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2016 18:35
|
|
|
KittyEmpress posted:You know, I don't understand why these sovcit types hate socialism so much. I mean, the rich propping up unprofitable businesses seems like the perfect thing for them, since I think statistics are that 90% of ranches and farms would be unprofitable without government breaks and encouragement. I have nothing solid to back this up, but my guess would be a combination of Red Scare and that it violates their big Rugged Individual fantasy. Furthermore, socialism as it regards Federal subsidies and the like is relying on an entity they despise and completely distrust, so at best those doing so are rubes and at worst active collaborators (of course, in reality, most of them DO rely on these things, but they've got good reasons for why it's okay for them and not okay for others, of course). Plus, it's not like they rely on statistics. Liberal propaganda! 
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2016 18:37
|
|
|
Yeah I was kinda shocked to read that those even existed. Why not just save a couple bucks and use a shock collar
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2016 18:37
|
|
|
As a Millennial I posted:Yeah I was kinda shocked to read that those even existed. Why not just save a couple bucks and use a shock collar quote:Todays criminal is hardened, desperate and more dangerous than ever. They endanger everyone they come in contact with; law enforcement, judges and civilians. They are out of control! http://www.stun-cuff.com/
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2016 18:41
|
|
|
SedanChair posted:Use of stun cuffs or belts in the courtroom is barbaric and I don't care if sovcits get to think they "won" because a judge was punished for using one inappropriately. They should be punished for using them at all. That judge just sounds like a jackass. The article also mentioned he previously deflated a cleaning person's car tires because she was parked in a restricted space. Real winner there. 
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2016 18:44
|
|
|
kartikeya posted:I have nothing solid to back this up, but my guess would be a combination of Red Scare and that it violates their big Rugged Individual fantasy. Furthermore, socialism as it regards Federal subsidies and the like is relying on an entity they despise and completely distrust, so at best those doing so are rubes and at worst active collaborators (of course, in reality, most of them DO rely on these things, but they've got good reasons for why it's okay for them and not okay for others, of course).   They don't actually know what the word 'socialism' means.
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2016 18:44
|
|
|
Entropic posted:
It's the 'YOU drat SOCIALISTS' at the bottom there that really makes this picture.
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2016 18:46
|
|
|
Entropic posted:
That's a photoshop. 
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2016 18:47
|
|
|
citybeatnik posted:That's a photoshop. I've seen that several times in Ohio. "Awful" has been "rear end" every time though.
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2016 18:52
|
|
|
I know I'm missing the point here, but...that's the sort of website you get from "oh, professional designers are too expensive. My nephew can do it!".
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2016 18:53
|
|
|
Entropic posted:
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2016 18:53
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 23:06 |
|
|
citybeatnik posted:That's a photoshop. My bad. People actually are that dumb though. http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/prescriptions/2009/08/the_medicareisntgovernment_meme.html It seems weird to even bother photoshopping the signs when the real ones are just as incoherent and dumb. That crowd is beyond parody.
|
|
#
?
Feb 2, 2016 18:59
|
|