|
Josh Lyman posted:You don't think "What he has always been is just a person who keeps on fighting, against anything and anyone" is a character flaw? "He won't stop fighting injustice" is not a character flaw. That's silly. The character didn't have any flaws in the First Avenger, and doesn't need any. The problem is that every sequel attempts to 'make the character interesting' by giving him contrived flaws that are either trivial (he dislikes swearing now. And how come he's not married?) or idiotic (he spends months as a black-ops assassin for the illuminati, without questioning anything, until his friends are endangered. Then joins a corporation's private army without questioning anything, until his friends are endangered). And these sequels ignore the actual character flaw that they've unwittingly introduced; the character isn't actually fighting injustice. He's not afraid of peace - he's afraid of actual conflict. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 15:52 on Apr 14, 2016 |
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 15:50
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 08:38 |
|
|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:And these sequels ignore the actual character flaw that they've unwittingly introduced; the character isn't actually fighting injustice. He's not afraid of peace - he's afraid of actual conflict. Well, Ultron throws this accusation at the entire set of Avengers multiple times in his movie, though they never actually bother to grapple with it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 15:58
|
|
|
To be fair, contrived flaws is a Marvel staple of writing.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 16:01
|
|
|
I said come in! posted:You could argue though that some of these beliefs are misguided. Social and economic policy are connected to each other and a lot of people don't understand how having differing views on both creates a lot of confusing conflict. Conservative fiscal policy tends to hurt social progress. No human could exist if not full of and tangled in contradictions. Holding conflicting points of view is how new paths are created where holding onto direct causality is what leads people to vote along political lines for the most typical reasons. "Policy" is right and a symptom of the governing system to which we belong, not the belief systems of constituents. The media loves to show caricatures so often that people actually confuse a correlation between the perceived voter and what ends up being done in their names but this isn't a direct democracy and both major parties are equally to blame for being 50% correct and holding that reality hostage to their other, incorrect halves. From where I stand, I see no way that ends without people becoming even more contradictory. That said, you're right. You are. It's an ocean and there's a lot of ways to traverse it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 16:07
|
|
|
cvnvcnv posted:both major parties are equally to blame for being 50% correct and holding that reality hostage to their other, incorrect halves. Haha, nope.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 16:12
|
|
|
Yvonmukluk posted:There's actually been a fair few thinkpieces around the net discussing how Steve Rogers being the way he is actually makes sense in his historical context. Thanks, that's a nice read. Quote from a Cap story about gays: quote:"No matter what words they force out of your mouth, you know the truth! You are not a freak! You're as good and decent a man as I've ever known! They cannot corrupt your love for Michael any more than they can corrupt my love for Bernie!" Hey, what do you know! I guess he does feel the bern.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 16:17
|
|
|
Sir Kodiak posted:Haha, nope. Congratulations, you favor a political party. I don't suspect anyone who does to agree with that for obvious reasons so gg
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 16:21
|
|
|
oh good, soapgish is a libertarian and still an idiot
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 16:23
|
|
|
It's kind of hard to not belong to a political party because most people have (at least) one issue that makes them say "I will always/never support a party who supports that issue". Basically you have to be uninformed about what parties actually stand for. Cap in the MCU is definitely Libertarian as hell though. In fact, he does the whole "Randian Superman" thing a lot more than Snyder does with Superman or whatever.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 16:23
|
|
|
"Maybe the truth is always somewhere in the middle" is possibly the only argument dumber than "My side is always right."computer parts posted:Cap in the MCU is definitely Libertarian as hell though. In fact, he does the whole "Randian Superman" thing a lot more than Snyder does with Superman or whatever. Civil War Cap basically always has to be, yeah.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 16:25
|
|
|
cvnvcnv posted:Congratulations, you favor a political party. I don't suspect anyone who does to agree with that for obvious reasons so gg I'm actually more bothered by the assumption that the two political parties encompass the entirety of correct political thought, ignoring both their significant agreement and the vast territory of possibilities neither will consider. And, yeah, if you really land on "equally to blame" and precisely 50%, that's pretty obviously a result of dedication to neutrality and blame sharing as an end in itself, not something you could actually end up with as a consequence of your various political views. It's Southparkian "the truth is is in the middle" for its own sake. Sir Kodiak fucked around with this message at 16:30 on Apr 14, 2016 |
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 16:27
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:"Maybe the truth is always somewhere in the middle" is possibly the only argument dumber than "My side is always right." It's what I thought when I was in my 20s. Give it time. Of course the way things are going, by then it will be too late.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 16:29
|
|
|
PiedPiper posted:Not that I think about it, are there examples of mainstream comic book protagonists who are unmistakably republican? Since writers tend to be left as hell, this is a hard proposition. Nick Fury, in his MAX books, definitely. Other heroes? Its kind of sad that I can't think of any. Goes to show that there should be more focus on creating identities that match how people are like in real life (not just one thing). Superman, in that weird rear end storyline Grounded. Mr. A? Man, someone needs to post some Mr. A panels. Josh Lyman posted:I don't think the MCU has done a good job of showing him as having serious character flaws. They definitely have strayed away from any deconstruction. Maybe in a couple more movies? Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Sorry, I didn't think any of those review quotes were major plot leaks. I guess saying what act things from the trailers happen in is technically a spoiler. I agree though, after some of the general public gets to view it next week, 3 weeks before the US release, spoilers are going to start flying around and it's better to be on the safe side. I'm trying to go in blind. It wasn't anything big, but I guess I'm holding onto the illusory idea that I can go into this movie without already knowing the broad strokes or any particular details. I don't think I am going to make it. Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:What's interesting is that this is directly parralleled with Nick Fury in Winter Soldier, when Robert Redford explains that Fury had a similar situation early in his career, where he disobeyed a direct order to save the lives of hostages in Pakistan. I wish they had time to get into his character more. What leads a Redford character, radiating decency, into murdering thousands? That sounds crazy interesting.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 16:29
|
|
|
I said come in! posted:In the movie universe, is Captain America feared though? Kinda interested in seeing which superheroes the public is scared of. Bruce Banner/the Hulk is a given, but who else does everyone mistrust? If you believe the Daily Bugle, Spider-Man is a menace!
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 16:32
|
|
|
Shageletic posted:Since writers tend to be left as hell, this is a hard proposition. Nick Fury, in his MAX books, definitely. Other heroes? Its kind of sad that I can't think of any. Goes to show that there should be more focus on creating identities that match how people are like in real life (not just one thing). Superman, in that weird rear end storyline Grounded. Mr. A? Man, someone needs to post some Mr. A panels. Tony Stark reads to me like a standard libertarian Republican.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 16:32
|
|
|
computer parts posted:It's kind of hard to not belong to a political party because most people have (at least) one issue that makes them say "I will always/never support a party who supports that issue". Basically you have to be uninformed about what parties actually stand for. Actually not belonging to a political party is super easy for a thinking person but this is a silly conversation for the comic book movie thread
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 16:39
|
|
|
Tony Stark, Iron Man 2: "No you can't have my suit! And don't tell me what to do!" Tony Stark, Iron Man 3: "Talking poo poo to the Mandarin is not a bad idea at all! Don't tell me what to do!" Tony Stark, AoU: "No, I AM gonna make a robot helper. Twice! Don't tell me what to do!" Tony Stark, Civil War: "Being told what to do by the U.N.? Sounds good."
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 16:41
|
|
|
Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Tony Stark, Iron Man 2: "No you can't have my suit! And don't tell me what to do!" And that last one is likely going to be deemed a character flaw and never brought up again after this movie.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 16:43
|
|
|
Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Tony Stark, Iron Man 2: "No you can't have my suit! And don't tell me what to do!" Why does the most popular character in the MCU have the most inconsistent characterization?
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 16:44
|
|
|
Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Tony Stark, Iron Man 2: "No you can't have my suit! And don't tell me what to do!" According to the reviews, Tony is finally carrying over his character development and going "You know what? I hosed up big time, and I am sick and tired of watching people die because of people like me thinking they know better than everyone else. Ultron was the last straw."
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 16:44
|
|
|
Sir Kodiak posted:I'm actually more bothered by the assumption that the two political parties encompass the entirety of correct political thought, ignoring both their significant agreement, and the vast territory of possibilities neither will consider. It's actually that neither party is correct, neither is the solution, and divvying actual blame is an abjectly masturbatory thing to do. Like the old saying, you vote right if you have a brain and you vote left if you have a heart. Kumbaya, I'm sure by their forces combined much good could be done but that isn't happening so what I'm left with is playing the devil's advocate for both. My genuine stance comes down to having absolutely zero political affiliation as I don't believe any person should be forced to live in the ways that I want to, and that I would never attempt to exert that force on another person.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 16:47
|
|
|
Cythereal posted:Tony Stark reads to me like a standard libertarian Republican. A Peter Thiel type maybe. Self sufficient island techno utopias? Pfft Stark already tried that out in the loving EIGHTIES
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 16:51
|
|
|
Cythereal posted:According to the reviews, Tony is finally carrying over his character development and going "You know what? I hosed up big time, and I am sick and tired of watching people die because of people like me thinking they know better than everyone else. Ultron was the last straw." Yeah like, Iron Man's been in exactly one good movie so I'm not super enthused to stan for him, but it seems completely reasonable for someone like him to arrive at a lesson like this way too late and overcorrect for it as a result
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 16:52
|
|
|
Jenny Angel posted:Yeah like, Iron Man's been in exactly one good movie so I'm not super enthused to stan for him, but it seems completely reasonable for someone like him to arrive at a lesson like this way too late and overcorrect for it as a result I think that may be the fundamental divide between Tony and Steve. Steve is in it to fight bad guys. Tony is in it to fix problems. These are not the same thing.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 16:54
|
|
|
Jenny Angel posted:Yeah like, Iron Man's been in exactly one good movie so I'm not super enthused to stan for him, but it seems completely reasonable for someone like him to arrive at a lesson like this way too late and overcorrect for it as a result That's fine. I'm totally comfortable saying that Stark will be back to his old arrogant self in subsequent movies. Marvel's system demands it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 16:55
|
|
|
cvnvcnv posted:SOUTH PARK? Don't watch the poo poo. Libertarian? Naw. An absolute unwillingness to actually commit to anything outside yourself appears to have broken you. Jesus Christ this is hard to read.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 16:58
|
|
|
Sir Kodiak posted:An absolute unwillingness to actually commit to anything outside yourself appears to have broken you. Jesus Christ this is hard to read. I know it's hard to not respond to something that dumb, but this is the Comic Book Thread, just try to let it slide.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 16:59
|
|
|
cvnvcnv posted:Like the old saying, you vote right if you have a brain and you vote left if you have a heart. Lmfao
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 17:00
|
|
|
Megaman's Jockstrap posted:I know it's hard to not respond to something that dumb, but this is the Comic Book Thread, just try to let it slide. Yep. Apologies.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 17:02
|
|
|
Cythereal posted:Ultron was the last straw. but then he went and made the Vision  Like, people have been saying this, but has anyone watched AoU lately? There's plenty of time for that characterization to happen in the movie but it just keeps not happening. Then they all part as friends with Cap telling Tony he will miss him and Scarlet Witch making a joke about their bromance. Cut to the buildup to Civil War and it's all "the Avengers are in disarray and Tony Stark is wracked with guilt after the events of Age of Ultron" and I'm like whaaaaa?
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 17:04
|
|
|
Cythereal posted:I think that may be the fundamental divide between Tony and Steve. Steve is in it to fight bad guys. Tony is in it to fix problems. These are not the same thing. Okay I amend my earlier answer. Stark's an engineer. So he prides himself in being able to adapt, analyze, and solve the last problem. Stuck in a cave with terrrorists? Suit of iron with flame throwers. Terrorism? Suit of iron that flies with missle launchers. Escalating dependency on suits leading to emotional problems? Blow them up, rely on your wits. Aliens? Robots of course. Robot? The first real AI. Hubris? Let the UN decide things. Its all very logical, as long as you follow the line of thought. So he wouldn't be a Republican. He would be a Silicon Valley type that wouldn't ever think of being low enough to participate in politics, but use politicians and parties to fulfill his vision. Like Zuckerberg deciding education policy for both Republican and Democrats by throwing around the billions. Though education policy would probably be too boring to someone like Stark.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 17:05
|
|
|
Guy A. Person posted:but then he went and made the Vision I think it's because they want to (ironically) make it so you don't have to watch the other entries for it to make sense. Infinity War 1 is probably going to open up with them all being chums, so you have to close out Ultron with them being chums or else Joe Avengers Viewer won't get it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 17:07
|
|
|
computer parts posted:I think it's because they want to (ironically) make it so you don't have to watch the other entries for it to make sense. Infinity War 1 is probably going to open up with them all being chums, so you have to close out Ultron with them being chums or else Joe Avengers Viewer won't get it. It really does combine some of the worst of both serialized and episodic television.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 17:09
|
|
|
computer parts posted:I think it's because they want to (ironically) make it so you don't have to watch the other entries for it to make sense. Infinity War 1 is probably going to open up with them all being chums, so you have to close out Ultron with them being chums or else Joe Avengers Viewer won't get it. Oh yeah this is exactly it, but then we shouldn't act like Tony Stark's characterization has been building from movie to movie. It's been building to the end of each movie where he can be a lovable hero by the start of the next one. Also this new arc just makes Tony look like a major league rear end in a top hat. "There needs to be checks and balances on people like us". No, dude, there needs to be checks and balances on you, nobody else made Ultron. The 'checks and balances' should be him listening to his team or anyone else for once. "Hey guys I know I didn't listen to you at all on the whole Ultron thing but it made me realize I need someone to keep me in check so that doesn't happen again." "Oh great so you are going to consult us in the future and we are going to act as a proper team?" "Oh god no, I meant the government, and also you need to listen to them too because I said so, aight peace" *rockets off into the stratosphere*
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 17:13
|
|
|
My favorite AoU bit is when everybody discusses how to fight Ultron and, iirc, Natasha's single spoken line is something like "The genie's out of that bottle. And its name is Ultron". O-okay, Natasha. Thanks for pitching in.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 17:14
|
|
|
PiedPiper posted:My favorite AoU bit is when everybody discusses how to fight Ultron and, iirc, Natasha's single spoken line is something like "The genie's out of that bottle. And its name is Ultron". They were arguing about the scepter. Thor wanted to go after it, and Widow said that it was too late for it since Ultron was active already. Anyway Tim Miller wants a Deadpool/Spider-Man crossover
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 17:18
|
|
|
Guy A. Person posted:Oh yeah this is exactly it, but then we shouldn't act like Tony Stark's characterization has been building from movie to movie. It's been building to the end of each movie where he can be a lovable hero by the start of the next one. In a way, Iron Man 3 is just that much funnier because you can still place it at any point in the MCU and have it make about the same amount of sense ("I'm giving up all of this poo poo, except when I'm not").
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 17:21
|
|
|
I kinda want to see Taylor Swift as Captain Marvel.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 17:26
|
|
|
Josh Lyman posted:I kinda want to see Taylor Swift as Captain Marvel. That's just about the exact opposite problem of Rhonda playing Captain Marvel Hey can we get an actress to play Captain Marvel? Like, an actual actress who can act? Is that too much to ask?
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 17:28
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 08:38 |
|
|
computer parts posted:In a way, Iron Man 3 is just that much funnier because you can still place it at any point in the MCU and have it make about the same amount of sense ("I'm giving up all of this poo poo, except when I'm not"). I mean, maybe the end of the movie, but the rest of the movie being about Stark's PTSD after New York kind of has a specific place.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 17:34
|
|
