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Zzulu posted:hollywood isnt racist, they just care about money I would argue that neither audiences or execs have tested this idea enough to where you could even make this call. In fact with the data available you could probably argue that there are many more issues that contribute to a movies failure than what race the lead actor is since we probably dont even have enough realistic data. Its all skewed because thats all Hollywood has ever done.
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Apr 16, 2016 22:57
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AccountSupervisor posted:I just think theres a healthy middle ground that can be achieved by pairing a solid writer and director with somewhat of a draw with at least an Asian actress that, while not a box office draw, could prove to be a potential star enough to get audiences interested. I would hope the final product would look good enough to audiences that it wouldn't matter two shits if the lead was an unfamiliar Asian actress. As an executive, I look at this idea and say "Yeah, but if we cast ScarJo as the lead, we'll make an extra 100 million. So gently caress you. We're casting her. If you don't like it, there's plenty of other directors that will take your seat gladly." 99% of Americans don't give a flying gently caress who the writer or director is. The only thing that matters is recognizable face on the screen. I would bet that 99% of Americans can't name a director beyond Spielberg, Lucas, and maybe Cameron.
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Apr 16, 2016 23:00
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AccountSupervisor posted:I would argue that neither audiences or execs have tested this idea enough to where you could even make this call. In fact with the data available you could probably argue that there are many more issues that contribute to a movies failure than what race the lead actor is since we probably dont even have enough realistic data. Its all skewed because thats all Hollywood has ever done. You can't just put all the blame on Hollywood on this though. Look at Indian, Chinese, Japanese, South Korean movie studios; they all culturally wash their movies and actors. Hell, even the few poor African movie studios do this. You need to look far further than that.
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Apr 16, 2016 23:13
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Mordiceius posted:As an executive, I look at this idea and say "Yeah, but if we cast ScarJo as the lead, we'll make an extra 100 million. So gently caress you. We're casting her. If you don't like it, there's plenty of other directors that will take your seat gladly." Literally no one is arguing this isnt exactly how execs think, what Im arguing is that you cant even say my idea is 100% destined to fail because unless you can find me a specific example, Id argue you cannot even prove that its a guaranteed financial risk to make a big budget scifi movie without a super well known white actress in the lead, ESPECIALLY when its an adaptation of a beloved property. Plus, this whole idea of Scar Jo being the sole thing that nets a movie 100million more in BO is actually kind of bullshit and is an illusion fueled by fear, not facts. http://www.vulture.com/2012/07/why-stars-dont-matter-gavin-polone.html "Vulture" posted:
The execs for this movie are just trying to replicate the success of something like Lucy, which is stupid because that movie cost only $40mil, and theres no way GitS will make that same margin of profit with a similar $460mil BO. Theyll obviously get the guarnteed fanboy money, but unless this movie looks really really good I dont think Scar Jo is going to be the one that nets its box office. Batham posted:You can't just put all the blame on Hollywood on this though. Look at Indian, Chinese, Japanese, South Korean movie studios; they all culturally wash their movies and actors. Hell, even the few poor African movie studios do this. I know exactly where to look, I have NO ILLUSIONS as to where the problems lie, Im just saying that how the gently caress can we ever expect to change this if the people making the content audiences consume dont even try to present audiences with a chance to adjust their tendencies. AccountSupervisor fucked around with this message at 23:28 on Apr 16, 2016 |
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Apr 16, 2016 23:17
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Batham posted:You can't just put all the blame on Hollywood on this though. Look at Indian, Chinese, Japanese, South Korean movie studios; they all culturally wash their movies and actors. Hell, even the few poor African movie studios do this. Could you tell a bit more about the washing in India/China/etc.? I haven't heard much on the subject outside of U.S. studios and it sounds pretty interesting. I do remember seeing an article in a magazine about a studio in Africa where the guy interviewing the director was offered the role of "evil white man bringing a witch into the country", and when he pointed out that he was Japanese the director said it was close enough.
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Apr 16, 2016 23:22
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Mordiceius posted:thus back to SMG's assertion that the problem is capitalism itself. The funny thing is that CGIing Johansson's face to make her 'look Japanese' would actually be brilliant commentary on the beauty industry - Japanese women are pressured to 'look white', while white women are pressured to 'look asian', and nobody's happy. So here's a cyborg that embodies that contradiction with a japanese woman in the body of a white fembot that's been modified to look japanese. Unfortunately, that's too radical of an image for Hollywood. Make no mistake: people are upset not because that concept is 'offensive' but because it's non-commerical. What many liberals suggest to counter the threat is that retreat into defending 'culture' - the familiar cause of 'preventing cultural appropriation' (e.g. saying only Asians can make 'Asian movies', enforcing a taboo). But that genie's already out of the bottle: actors can already be made into anyone. Note Vision in these marvel films, de-aged Michael Douglas, Doctor Manhattan, etc. Dr. Aki Ross is coming back for vengeance. "One reason Fukuyama moved from his ‘end-of-history’ theory to a consideration of the new threat posed by the brain sciences is that the biogenetic threat is a much more radical version of the ‘end of history’, one that has the potential to render the free autonomous subject of liberal democracy obsolete. There is a deeper reason, however, for Fukuyama’s turn: the prospect of biogenetic manipulation has forced him, consciously or not, to take note of the dark obverse of his idealised image of liberal democracy. All of a sudden, he has been compelled to confront the prospect of corporations misusing the free market to manipulate people and engage in terrifying medical experiments, of rich people breeding their offspring as an exclusive race with superior mental and physical capacities, thus instigating a new class warfare. It is clear to Fukuyama that the only way to limit this danger is to reassert strong state control of the market and to develop new forms of a democratic political will." -Zizek
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Apr 16, 2016 23:26
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AccountSupervisor posted:Literally no one is arguing this isnt exactly how execs think, what Im arguing is that you cant even say my idea is 100% destined to fail because unless you can find me a specific example, Id argue you cannot even prove that its a guaranteed financial risk to make a big budget scifi movie without a super well known white actress in the lead, ESPECIALLY when its an adaptation of a beloved property. "Okay, you go ahead and take your own 50 million dollars and go test your idea, while me here with my money, I'll go with the method that has worked for me so far."
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Apr 16, 2016 23:46
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Mordiceius posted:"Okay, you go ahead and take your own 50 million dollars and go test your idea, while me here with my money, I'll go with the method that has worked for me so far." Do you have a point to make or are you just going to continue the stupid Hollywood executive fan fiction?
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Apr 16, 2016 23:48
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AccountSupervisor posted:Do you have a point to make or are you just going to continue the stupid Hollywood executive fan fiction? I was waiting for you to offer a realistic, real world solution for this problem, which you have yet to do.
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Apr 16, 2016 23:50
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Mordiceius posted:I was waiting for you to offer a realistic, real world solution for this problem, which you have yet to do. No one really has one. It's either tear down capitalism or do ineffectual incrementalism because that's the root of the issue. Its why nearly every industry is homogenised to white guys in charge, Hollywood is hardly alone here.
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Apr 16, 2016 23:56
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Mordiceius posted:I was waiting for you to offer a realistic, real world solution for this problem, which you have yet to do. Bank a movie on a concept, good script and good director and not a star because as demonstrated by the article I linked above it doesnt work as well as you seem to think it does. My point is ScarJo is irrelevant to the success of this movie and she will neither make or brake its box office so the reasons for casting her based on star power are moot and there is literally no factual evidence to support the executive decisions in her casting beyond racist fear. Execs are plenty willing to risk investment for a million other reasons and to not risk it because the lead actress isnt a white megastar is stupid. Dragonaball Evolution didnt fail because it had no star power, it failed because it looked like poo poo. So if you have faith in the script and creative team, why not go for proper casting? ScarJo is not going to make your movie a success, shes just going to make it easier to deflect blame if it fails. AccountSupervisor fucked around with this message at 02:30 on Apr 17, 2016 |
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Apr 17, 2016 00:00
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AccountSupervisor posted:Dragonaball Evolution didnt fail because it had no star power, it failed because it looked like poo poo. The man has a point
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Apr 17, 2016 00:03
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:The man has a point Probably something to be said for the executives aversion to risk, that if the movie doesn't have the star power, they don't provide the support & funding a movie needs to be strong in execution and concept, thus killing it in the crib and proving the "rule" that star power is what sells. I mean, Edge of Tomorrow / Live Die Repeat was a fantastic movie to most who saw it with bankable stars, but absolutely poo poo show marketing never gave it a chance. The 'formula' requires effort across the board.
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Apr 17, 2016 00:11
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Maluco Marinero posted:Probably something to be said for the executives aversion to risk, that if the movie doesn't have the star power, they don't provide the support & funding a movie needs to be strong in execution and concept, thus killing it in the crib and proving the "rule" that star power is what sells. This is my entire point, thank you.
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Apr 17, 2016 00:16
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Maluco Marinero posted:I mean, Edge of Tomorrow / Live Die Repeat was a fantastic movie to most who saw it with bankable stars, but absolutely poo poo show marketing never gave it a chance. The 'formula' requires effort across the board. Still somehow getting an unneeded sequel.
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Apr 17, 2016 00:25
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:But, going further, what is an executive going to do when they are ultimately beholden to the shareholders, market forces, etc.? The ultimate problem is capitalism, and you're not going to fix that by spamming anybody's twitter. But these movies DON'T make money? https://twitter.com/TheNerdsofColor/status/721430734603436034 https://twitter.com/TheNerdsofColor/status/721431668188450817 https://twitter.com/NerdyAsians/status/721431835373244416 Corek fucked around with this message at 00:33 on Apr 17, 2016 |
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Apr 17, 2016 00:31
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Motto posted:Still somehow getting an unneeded sequel. Really. Wow that makes no sense.
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Apr 17, 2016 00:34
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Back to AccountSupervisor's point somewhat, it doesn't seem like those movies would have been magically been successes if only they had used "correct" races. I feel like I'm stating the obvious when I say that, but that seems to be the point that they are arguing.
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Apr 17, 2016 00:35
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Corek posted:But these movies DON'T make money? Yeah. That's the other side of it, but these are also franchises that don't need to align their stories with people's expectations. Even Star Wars is now in uncharted ground so t can make its own story. Fast & Furious has always been able to set its own expectations. On the other hand remakes and comic book movies are inherently beholden to the fans and their wants because that's what'll make the money, so by and large the rest of the production seems to follow suit.
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Apr 17, 2016 00:38
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:Back to AccountSupervisor's point somewhat, it doesn't seem like those movies would have been magically been successes if only they had used "correct" races. I feel like I'm stating the obvious when I say that, but that seems to be the point that they are arguing. Yeah, that is one thing I thought about - those are not great movies to most people. I'm just wondering about the source of this problem.
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Apr 17, 2016 00:38
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Corek posted:https://twitter.com/TheNerdsofColor/status/721430734603436034 Exactly my point: the ultimate nerd goal is to reward Hollywood studios with money. It also seems unlikely that Gods Of Egypt failed because of twitter boycotts.
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Apr 17, 2016 00:38
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Corek posted:Yeah, that is one thing I thought about - those are not great movies to most people. I'm just wondering about the source of this problem. It's mostly because they're mid-tier action movies.
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Apr 17, 2016 00:42
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:It also seems unlikely that Gods Of Egypt failed because of twitter boycotts. The point of the tweets are that the boycott DIDN'T work, because even though the movies failed, Hollywood learned nothing. Corek fucked around with this message at 00:45 on Apr 17, 2016 |
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Apr 17, 2016 00:42
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Woulda been kinda hard to have straight outta compton with a bunch of white guys
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Apr 17, 2016 00:43
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Also I'm not sure if I believe that the key to the success of Force Awakens was having a black guy.
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Apr 17, 2016 00:45
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:Also I'm not sure if I believe that the key to the success of Force Awakens was having a black guy. The point made is it doesn't hurt as long as your film isn't handcuffed to expectations (which the studios can set). Force Awakens was always gonna print money cause it's freaking Star Wars. Fast & Furious however is clearly strong in international markets, and it's diversity of cast and setting by Hollywood standards certainly doesn't hurt that. It helps that F&F's thing is fast cars, over the top action scenes and sexy men & women. There's no need to stick to canon, and it's expectations never force it into casting decisions of a certain race or gender. It's an ensemble movie first and foremost (what? Without introducing the characters??) so there's never been a focus on a singular star, Paul Walker headed it sure but even before his death he wasn't exactly the focal point. I don't know what my final point is here, but maybe it's that comic book movies have painted themselves into a corner, and fans and studios alike are to blame because it's fairly clear the reason isn't monetary if you actually commit to your premise and casting choices.
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Apr 17, 2016 00:56
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Maluco Marinero posted:Really. Wow that makes no sense. Hollywood accounting makes no sense so this doesnt suprise me. The publics understanding of what a "failure" is is so drastically off base for what execs consider a "failure". Its only apparent in really big obvious box office bombs. Thats part of why people thinking DC is panicking after BvS is silly. Its just not how poo poo works, which is why its funny that someone like Max Landis thinks his opinion on how it works is 100% applicable to this movie and casting decision. While yes, its certainly true, its just not as rigid or black and white as he thinks it is, which is also hilarious because he accuses audiences of thinking things are simple and black and white which is not the case at all . Maluco Marinero posted:The point made is it doesn't hurt as long as your film isn't handcuffed to expectations (which the studios can set). Force Awakens was always gonna print money cause it's freaking Star Wars. Fast & Furious however is clearly strong in international markets, and it's diversity of cast and setting by Hollywood standards certainly doesn't hurt that. The people pissed about these things are mostly nerd consumers, who are a huge market now, telling executives "we will spend more money on you if you do this". I dont think the thing they are asking for is something that will drive away the consumers they are so afraid of losing. Its so rarely done that its unknown if it is actually that huge of a risk now. Youre 100% right in pointing out the success of F&F as an example of it being less of a risk. But the majority stubborn rich white executives pretty much never try. This movie would have been a pefect chance to do that in and it loving sucks they didnt. Capitalism is partly to blame but I also think its the solution if anyone would put any effort into making it work. AccountSupervisor fucked around with this message at 01:23 on Apr 17, 2016 |
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Apr 17, 2016 01:09
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Apr 17, 2016 01:47
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True Cyberpunk
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Apr 17, 2016 02:46
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wait since when can Tony Stark (kind of) hold his own in like close combat martial arts poo poo He oughta be a useless rear end in a top hat outside of his suit
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Apr 17, 2016 05:11
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TheFallenEvincar posted:wait since when can Tony Stark (kind of) hold his own in like close combat martial arts poo poo Because the filmmakers needed it for this fight scene, of course.
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Apr 17, 2016 05:23
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like he's just a dumb alcoholic technocrat, how does he have the reflexes to keep up with THE WINTER SOLDIER for even like 10 seconds and why even use that gauntlet setup anyway (it does look cool, I guess, that'd be the answer), just go full suit, you've got like fifteen thousand of those shits. It's just asking to get your skull crushed.
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Apr 17, 2016 05:26
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Bucky may be a bit stunned from the poo poo Tony did with his glove, though that doesn't really come across in the fight choreography. And Tony was learning to fight a bit in Iron Man 2, that's what he's up to when he interviews Black Widow, so presumably that has continued in the background.
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Apr 17, 2016 05:28
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If the suit is a bunch of nanomachines in his body maybe it's like wired reflexes and skillsoft in Shadowrun where when he activates it it does pre-programmed movements to grab something/move a certain way super efficiently on reflex to get the drop on someone but is lovely long term against someone who actually know what they're doing. Either way it's really dumb. The power of these characters differs all the time as they meet up in different comics but even in as many movies as there are in the MCU it's a huge stretch that Stark isn't instantly taken out by the character whom in their last appearance is able to clown Black Widow/Falcon/everyone almost effortlessly and then almost beat Captain America to death in the direct sequel to the flick where this happens. Neo Rasa fucked around with this message at 05:46 on Apr 17, 2016 |
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Apr 17, 2016 05:44
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Man gently caress all that Tony Stark, I'm more hyped to see Chadwick Boseman killing it.
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Apr 17, 2016 05:46
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TheFallenEvincar posted:wait since when can Tony Stark (kind of) hold his own in like close combat martial arts poo poo He shoots Bucky with two things that disorient him, and all it results in him doing is being able to control where Bucky shoots, and get a smack in. Then he's dispatched. They've said that time passes the same in the movies as real time, so you can expect that Tony has done some hand-to-hand training since he became Iron Man. It doesn't seem like a stretch he can only manage one shot after hitting Bucky twice with things designed to disorient him.
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Apr 17, 2016 05:49
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TetsuoTW posted:Man gently caress all that Tony Stark, I'm more hyped to see Chadwick Boseman killing it.
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Apr 17, 2016 05:51
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TetsuoTW posted:Man gently caress all that Tony Stark, I'm more hyped to see Chadwick Boseman killing it. Seconding this because god drat
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Apr 17, 2016 05:55
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Codependent Poster posted:He shoots Bucky with two things that disorient him, and all it results in him doing is being able to control where Bucky shoots, and get a smack in. Then he's dispatched.
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Apr 17, 2016 06:00
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How are they going to justify calling a white woman Motoko Kusanagi
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Apr 17, 2016 06:39
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