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BravestOfTheLamps posted:The Jedi consider (non-droid) slavery evil. This is because the Republic considers (non-droid) slavery evil and so it's illegal. Or, Tatooine is outside the reach of the republic, hence its existence as an outer rim planet, the lack of senate representation, its safety as a choice for hiding until the OT, and its control by the Hutt family. quote:Your argument that they're indoctrinated is just trying to absolve them of their choice. The Jedi are no more indoctrinated than anyone else. They are free and have a choice. Nobody is immune to the influences of their environment. To defer to imagery; our first view of jedi children involves them wearing vision-obscuring helmets, being guided to focuson an attack target with their defensive weapon. quote:Whether they're good people doesn't matter, they're still making an evil choice. They do not need to follow the will of the people if it's evil. They are unaware that it is an "evil" choice. Or society and/or their training has convinced them that the evil of subjugating Tatooine against the will of the people outweigh the evil of an outer rim planet having slaves (that can apparently buy their freedom). quote:The Jedi consider attachments bad. This is why they're separated from their families. Which is why it was a mistake for Qui-Gon to abuse his position to get Anakin into the order. He was not capable of this detachment, and Shmi needed him.
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Apr 25, 2016 10:28
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BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 18:56 on Dec 13, 2016 |
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Apr 25, 2016 10:31
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brawleh posted:You're getting confused, the Separatist Alliance is not the Trade Federation. Now here is where "heroes on both sides" comes in, but differing perspectives are no substitute for the truth. The Trade Federation representatives come to the realisation they've been used by a 'Sith' lord and gladly accept the refuge offered by former 'Jedi master' Count Dooku. Stop being a reactionary and really think about this if you believe yourself to be left wing. You're constantly getting distracted by details and ignoring the wider implications(negative space) of what you're saying. I have thought as much as I need. The federation uses droids as enslaved fodder. The separatists accept the slavemasters. With the backing of the separatists the charismatic loading droids are turned into imposing and stilted killing machines. The image of their rise to freedom is of an egg infested with blades. Qui-gons' remorse clearly depicts his care for the enslaved, restrained by the impartial role of a jedi. These are not apathetic monks. These are wise philosopher-warriors aware that they cannot create equality in society with a blade.
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Apr 25, 2016 10:32
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:The Jedi are free to help slaves. They do not need an imperialist invasion to do this, they can defect to organize and aid slave revolts. They do not care about slavery even though they know it to be wrong. They do not defect because they correctly determine the vital nature if their role. The republic is not evil, the jedi are not evil, the republic's citizens are not evil. They are sick, but like most sicknesses can recover with time. You don't cure sickness with brute force.
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Apr 25, 2016 10:35
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BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 18:56 on Dec 13, 2016 |
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Apr 25, 2016 10:38
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:And thus they fail, and help establish a fascist state. They do not fail due to not defecting. No amount of severed heads will make the republic society sympathetic to droids. The training of a jedi does not immediately lend itself to persuasion of the people. You see a film with Obi-Wan and Padme and incorrectly deduce that the universe needs more unrestrained Obi-wans instead of more sympathetic Padme's. I'm going to sleep now, hopefully you wont boil down tonights posts to "Nuh-Uh!", like you did with TFA and the federation while I'm gone.
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Apr 25, 2016 10:42
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BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 18:56 on Dec 13, 2016 |
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Apr 25, 2016 10:43
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Neurolimal, have you noticed that you're arguing that the Jedi are both wise philosophers but also blindly indoctrinated? This is a contradiction. yes i never heard of that being a thing
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Apr 25, 2016 10:44
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all of the wise philosophers i know indoctrinate themselves on purpose
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Apr 25, 2016 10:47
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So they are not wise. e: Also why can somone be opposed to violent revolt when the OT was all about that, and there was not a single hint of the people's will in it? BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 12:12 on Apr 25, 2016 |
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Apr 25, 2016 10:51
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Oh no they were the wisest philosophers I ever met
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Apr 25, 2016 10:53
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Neurolimal posted:I have thought as much as I need. The federation uses droids as enslaved fodder. The separatists accept the slavemasters. With the backing of the separatists the charismatic loading droids are turned into imposing and stilted killing machines. The image of their rise to freedom is of an egg infested with blades. You keep making a conscious choice to close your eyes and not think. Think of the visual comparison of the droid army compared with the clone army. The critique of the leadership you are applying to the 'federation' textually is directly shown in the Jedi Order and the republic. You're on the right path but you need to think further upon this and examine your thoughts. Now to bring this in a roundabout way to 'good' intentions do not make for 'good' actions. Qui-gon's remorse does not absolve him, a jedi, from the responsibility of liberating all slaves despite his concern(intentions). Their impartiality doesn't exist, only a subjective truth exists. Their (in)action is to allow slavery to exist beyond their border, horizon and sight is a sign of weakness and corruption. "The Force was an energy field that connected all living things(war machines) in the galaxy. ... It surrounds us and penetrates us; it binds the galaxy together." Because in order to acknowledge this failing, they have to acknowledge their relationship with the droids(and the clones) whose suffering they do not see. This isn't an attempt to 'Checkmate ' you, don't mistake it as such. brawleh fucked around with this message at 11:10 on Apr 25, 2016 |
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Apr 25, 2016 10:55
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:A movie being about a bunch of jerks is not a flaw. Right, it's not. But some people don't like watching movies where everyone's a jerk. They prefer movies like A New Hope, starring Luke Skywalker, who is cool and good. At least the prequels have lots of pretty shots and cool lightsaber fights.
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Apr 25, 2016 11:11
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BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 18:57 on Dec 13, 2016 |
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Apr 25, 2016 11:15
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:This is a weakness. I'll never turn to the dark side.
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Apr 25, 2016 11:22
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MrSmokes posted:Right, it's not. But some people don't like watching movies where everyone's a jerk. They prefer movies like A New Hope, starring Luke Skywalker, who is cool and good. I hate the prequels now.
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Apr 25, 2016 11:42
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I thought this was really nice: ilm team watches trailer reactions to rogue one. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeEU61EIgzk
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Apr 25, 2016 13:36
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Obi-Wan and Padme are both failures in the prequels. Why do we need more Padmes? Padme learns from her mistakes by the end, albeit when she no longer has power or much longer to live. Obi-Wan persists in his idiosyncratic and blissfully ignorant interpretation of what it means to be a Jedi, keeping the ball rolling for the fall of both the Republic and the Empire.
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Apr 25, 2016 16:19
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homullus posted:Padme learns from her mistakes by the end, albeit when she no longer has power or much longer to live. Obi-Wan persists in his idiosyncratic and blissfully ignorant interpretation of what it means to be a Jedi, keeping the ball rolling for the fall of both the Republic and the Empire. Fun Obi-Wan fact I noticed while watching AotC a while ago: though he's shouting at Anakin about his duty to stop Dooku his last orders from the Jedi Council were actually "See that no harm comes to the Senator." Who had just fallen out of a gunship. Why are you such a liar Ben 
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Apr 25, 2016 19:10
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MrSmokes posted:Okay, so maybe the Jedi really are just a bunch of jerks who don't want to do anything about slavery. Slavery is really bad! The idea that all stories should have likable or heroic protagonists is pretty narrow, and leaves out a lot of well-regarded "classics" from every medium. Not that anybody has to like that style of storytelling, but if they're closed to it they're the ones missing out.
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Apr 25, 2016 19:19
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Neurolimal posted:The military wing of the republic shouldn't be taking over the senate and enforcing their own laws. I'm surprised this is even controversial among leftists. lol MrSmokes posted:
Have you ever read any tragedies? The Jedi should be good, but aren't, and this is why they fail and participate in their own destruction. It's not as fun of a message as the OT, which is why most people who were expecting those fun feelings were disappointed. Without knowing why you dislike something it's easy to latch onto the off-putting characters, or other details that don't work for you the way you think they should, to explain it. This isn't to say those details aren't present or even that they don't matter; I think the prequels for most (including myself) simply aren't as enjoyable on a surface level. There's just a vast gulf between that and viewing them as works of visual art, which is why there's such a disconnect, with both the prequels and TFA.
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Apr 25, 2016 19:47
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The Jedi are well-meaning enthusiasts of peace and justice who have become addicted to the status and authority (i.e. power) that being embedded in the Republic has afforded. They are oblivious to the effect this relationship with the Republic has had, because of human nature and/or the dark side. This is their downfall and most pay with their lives. Why are we talking about not liking them? Obi-Wan is very likable. Note that in the OT, Luke DOES just "go and free slaves" by force. He frees all the ones he came for, not just the one he could afford by cheating on a bet.
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Apr 25, 2016 20:05
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Neurolimal posted:They do not defect because they correctly determine the vital nature if their role. The republic is not evil, the jedi are not evil, the republic's citizens are not evil. They are sick, but like most sicknesses can recover with time. You don't cure sickness with brute force. I agree that the practice of keeping slaves is something of a spiritual and moral sickness. This does not excuse the practice of slavery, and it does not mean the Jedi should hesitate to confront slavery out of sympathy for the slave masters.
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Apr 25, 2016 20:11
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EX-GAIJIN AT LAST posted:Have you ever read any tragedies? The Jedi should be good, but aren't, and this is why they fail and participate in their own destruction. It's not as fun of a message as the OT, which is why most people who were expecting those fun feelings were disappointed. On the contrary: the downfall of the Republic is presented first as tragedy (in the OT), and then as farce (in the PT). People are paradoxically unable to have fun because the prequels are too irreverent, too blasphemous, too cartoonish, etc.
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Apr 25, 2016 20:29
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EX-GAIJIN AT LAST posted:Have you ever read any tragedies? The Jedi should be good, but aren't, and this is why they fail and participate in their own destruction. It's not as fun of a message as the OT, which is why most people who were expecting those fun feelings were disappointed. Without knowing why you dislike something it's easy to latch onto the off-putting characters, or other details that don't work for you the way you think they should, to explain it. That's the whole crux of why the prequels aren't liked. There is zero rooting interest in the story. The Jedi are bad, the Republic are bad and the Sith/Separatists manage to be even worse. The context that it provides to the OT is plenty interesting to read and talk about, in much the same way its fun to brush up on history via Wikipedia. The problem is these are feature length films, and if there's no one worth caring about, where does the sense of loss come from? "Here's seven hours of people that are bad, the vast majority of them die, a few oppress the many and a couple others go into exile." I'm not seeing the point in slogging through all that just to get to Yoda's epiphany that, yes, you were all wrong the whole time and destroyed everything you wanted to protect. Sometimes creative works where everyone sucks can be good, this just isn't an example of it. Thank You For Smoking is about mostly bad people (with the exception of the kid), but it shows some redeeming qualities for the characters and makes some interesting points (even villains have rights, the place of bullshit in society) in a humorous fashion. None of the moral/philosophical points presented in the film are especially difficult to grasp. Slavery is bad, condoning slavery is bad, considering a sentient being less than you because they look different is bad. Letting corporations have a seat in Congress is bad. Child abduction/indoctrination is bad. War is bad. These aren't exactly hard-hitting points to make, and making them isn't all that interesting. So why care? There's no one to like, no one save Padme to feel bad for and there isn't a whole lot to laugh at unless you're into minstrel gags and wholesale slaughter for chuckles.
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Apr 25, 2016 20:55
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Filthy Casual posted:That's the whole crux of why the prequels aren't liked. There is zero rooting interest in the story. The Jedi are bad, the Republic are bad and the Sith/Separatists manage to be even worse. The context that it provides to the OT is plenty interesting to read and talk about, in much the same way its fun to brush up on history via Wikipedia. The problem is these are feature length films, and if there's no one worth caring about, where does the sense of loss come from? "Here's seven hours of people that are bad, the vast majority of them die, a few oppress the many and a couple others go into exile." I'm not seeing the point in slogging through all that just to get to Yoda's epiphany that, yes, you were all wrong the whole time and destroyed everything you wanted to protect. You don't think the following characters are interesting to watch?: - Palpatine - Anakin - Yoda - Dooku - Jimmy Smitts - Padme There's a *ton* to like about Palpatine, he's a hilarious scenery-chewing dude. Why does he have to be a "good guy" to "like" him? I know a lot of you hate this meme already but you seem to be talking about the same sort of "fucakbility" thing that SMG alluded to earlier. None of these characters are charming and fuckable ("rooting interest"), so people don't think they're likeable or interesting Contrast that with TFA which has incredibly "rooting interest" characters...but to what end?
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Apr 25, 2016 21:00
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All star wars have lots to laugh at/with. No one who named himself "Zazzle Moonbreaker" is writing dialogue that isn't hilarious
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Apr 25, 2016 21:00
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Honestly Thank You For Smoking is a little too cute about it's characters imo
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Apr 25, 2016 21:06
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Schwarzwald posted:I agree that the practice of keeping slaves is something of a spiritual and moral sickness. It doesn't excuse it, but it also doesn't mean the jedi are not good, just flawed. The sickness of the republic citizens mean that the Jedi cannot end slavery alone, and an attempt to do so before citizens are willing would likely result in far greater harm to citizens (including droids). that's not to say they have to wait until the majority is on their side, but every successful movement has had at least a large portion of society in their favor.
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Apr 25, 2016 21:08
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The example that comes to my mind, for whatever reason, is Moby Dick. Ahab is a mad man who doesn't know when to quit, Moby Dick is an almost supernaturally vindictive animal, the apparent protagonist disappears into the role of omniscient narrator early on in the novel. So which do I root for? Well, none really. Does that make the novel worthless, or only interesting in the abstract? No. Ahab is not likable or "fuckable", but his flaws are relatable. His drive for revenge is on some level universal, and same for the Jedi's hypocrisy. I guess my point is simply that characters can be compelling for their flaws just as easily as for their good qualities.
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Apr 25, 2016 21:09
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PEQUOD COMING IN HOT
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Apr 25, 2016 21:10
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Lord Krangdar posted:The example that comes to my mind, for whatever reason, is Moby Dick. Ahab is a mad man who doesn't know when to quit, Moby Dick is an almost supernaturally vindictive animal, the apparent protagonist disappears into the role of omniscient narrator early on in the novel. So which do I root for? Well, none really. Does that make the novel worthless, or only interesting in the abstract? No. Ahab is not likable or "fuckable", but his flaws are relatable. His drive for revenge is on some level universal, and same for the Jedi's hypocrisy. Now imagine if that before Moby Dick came out there were three books about Ahab's kids (or maybe the Whale's dad?) that had really fuckable characters and that inspired a generation of readers to love that genre, and then Melville gave those readers Moby Dick. What I'm getting at is that the prequels never got a chance to be looked at fairly because people who hate the prequels hate them exactly for being like what you're describing for Moby Dick, unlike the OT which has very fuckable characters
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Apr 25, 2016 21:18
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Lord Krangdar posted:The example that comes to my mind, for whatever reason, is Moby Dick. Ahab is a mad man who doesn't know when to quit, Moby Dick is an almost supernaturally vindictive animal, the apparent protagonist disappears into the role of omniscient narrator early on in the novel. So which do I root for? Well, none really. Does that make the novel worthless, or only interesting in the abstract? No. Ahab is not likable or "fuckable", but his flaws are relatable. His drive for revenge is on some level universal, and same for the Jedi's hypocrisy. Well thats the thing; the character doesn't need to be a good person to be relatable. Tragedies operate off of that. The question is less "who do I root for?" And more "who can I see myself as?". Moby Dick succeeds in making Ahab relatable, and as a result the message of how self-destructive his vengeance is becomes clear to the reader. That's ultimately the reason why people can sympathize with Kylo Ren, but not Anakin; TFA succeeds in placing Kylo in relatable situations commiting human reactions that the viewer could see themselves doing. By contrast Anakin starts out as a tragic character, and willingly descends further from humanity. As a result viewers are unable to relate to Anakin, and are left in the role of omniscient judges shooting spitballs at Hayden. TPM's anakin could be considered the humanizing relatable moments, but the result of his acting alongside the immense age and growth gap between TPM and AOTC means that the viewers place them as entirely separate characters. You can whinge about how it's the audience' fault for not getting thr film, but the ultimate results are that the audience leaves having never been touched by any messages inherit to Anakin.
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Apr 25, 2016 21:25
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BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 18:57 on Dec 13, 2016 |
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Apr 25, 2016 21:27
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Neurolimal posted:It doesn't excuse it, but it also doesn't mean the jedi are not good, just flawed. The sickness of the republic citizens mean that the Jedi cannot end slavery alone, and an attempt to do so before citizens are willing would likely result in far greater harm to citizens (including droids). Process this paradox you're creating for yourself that's actually paralyzing your ability to think. The jedi(republic) do not see droids as people, the only way to possibly change this is when the majority of the republic(jedi) come to realise droids are people. But not to worry, the guardians of peace will peacefully unthink through this unthinkable problem as droids are not people(?).
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Apr 25, 2016 21:28
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Neurolimal posted:You can whinge about how it's the audience' fault for not getting thr film, but the ultimate results are that the audience leaves having never been touched by any messages inherit to Anakin. You really don't think Anakin's troubles/plight/arc are relatable? Furthermore, what "relatable" ("rooting interest") traits does Kylo have?
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Apr 25, 2016 21:30
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I love that the star wars thread has taken discussions of the fuckablity of fictional characters in a whole new direction i never seen before lol
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Apr 25, 2016 21:32
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Slaves, for example, make up a huge portion of the population. And the droids do not rebel for equality. The slaves of Tatooine exist outside the Republic's society. quote:Kylo Ren is first shown participating in a massacre and killing a defenseless man. He doesn't have to be good to be relatable. We see him get understandably pissed off, we see him feel conflicted in situations we are willing to believe are difficult. We see him look for guidance, we see Adam put out an intensely human performance. We see him display his vulnerabilities and repressed soft side to Rey. The tragic part of the PT is tgat TFA succeeds in making the audience relate to the tragedy of a character who starts out as a mass murderee, while we never feel attached to a slave who is indoctrinated and loses his mother.
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Apr 25, 2016 21:32
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Waffles Inc. posted:You really don't think Anakin's troubles/plight/arc are relatable? Furthermore, what "relatable" ("rooting interest") traits does Kylo have? The situations are sad, but the highest chance for relating to him are often immediately overshadowed by frustration over how easily the situation could have been avoided. Kylo is a struggling youth buckling under the legacy of his family, the absence of his father, and the attachment to the only father figure who made time for him. In none of Kylo's most tragic or vulnerable moments do we believe he could have done better. Meanwhile, in AotC Anakin's loss is overshadowed by confusion about why he didn't have his rich girlfriend queen move her to a republic planet.
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Apr 25, 2016 21:35
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BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 18:57 on Dec 13, 2016 |
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Apr 25, 2016 21:37
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