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how could he have heard that over Mark Waid's furious screeching from the front row?
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May 8, 2016 01:31
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HIJK posted:It's only deranged when DC heroes kill people, because that makes people feel bad about themselves. When Marvel heroes kill people we giggle and clap, and that makes it okay. Wait are we somehow looping around to arguing that Batman's actions in the first half of BvS are completely rational things that a non totally insane person would do? BravestOfTheLamps posted:So Tony Stark and Captain America are also deranged? They kill a lot of people. That seems to go against your thesis. You seem to be misunderstanding my thesis.
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May 8, 2016 01:32
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Tony Stark's killed robots, bioenhanced supersoldiers, foreign terrorists in a war zone, guys in giant mecha suits busy attacking him, and aliens. That's a bit different from murdering common criminals on US soil.
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May 8, 2016 01:33
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Actually those guys were international human traffickers so pretty much if there's one class of criminal that deserves to die it's those dudes. They're like a step below Mexican cartels in the ladder of Sons of Bitches.
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May 8, 2016 01:34
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TFRazorsaw posted:Different characters have different goals, different standards they set for themselves. It's not too hard a concept to wrap one's head around. So Iron Man isn't deranged because he sets lower standards for himself than Batman and his goals are to kill people, so it's all right. Gotcha.
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May 8, 2016 01:40
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"Violence is totally same when it happens Elsewhere, against subhumans like terrorists" Lol of course violence is never completely sane. Trying to normalize it is more deranged. Batman is basically insane, that's the basic appeal of his character. The escalatIon in BvS is pretty logical from that.
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May 8, 2016 01:40
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I mean I'm not taking a stance on whether criminals should be killed or not I'm just saying they're not "common criminals" they are literally members of an evil international organization with paramilitary-grade weaponry. If it's cool for Tony to ice terrorists I don't really see what's so bad about Batman killing like a half-dozen of them incidentally.
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May 8, 2016 01:40
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Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:Wait are we somehow looping around to arguing that Batman's actions in the first half of BvS are completely rational things that a non totally insane person would do? My point is that Batman's actions are crazy but that Captain America and Iron Man are also kinda nuts for carrying on the way they do, and that the divide is not as big as people think.
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May 8, 2016 01:41
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Madness is like gravity. All you need is a little push.
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May 8, 2016 01:43
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HIJK posted:My point is that Batman's actions are crazy but that Captain America and Iron Man are also kinda nuts for carrying on the way they do, and that the divide is not as big as people think. Ok, that reading of the superhero genre is fine but it doesn't have much to do with my post about Civil War, which again gives Tony and Cap reasonably sane reasons for being in conflict, whereas BvS is rather explicit about Batman's mental illness being a major driver of his conflict with Superman.
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May 8, 2016 01:53
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Personally cannot wait for Cyborg: Rise of Booyah.
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May 8, 2016 01:54
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Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:Ok, that reading of the superhero genre is fine but it doesn't have much to do with my post about Civil War, which again gives Tony and Cap reasonably sane reasons for being in conflict, whereas BvS is rather explicit about Batman's mental illness being a major driver of his conflict with Superman. Are you trying to imply that Tony Stark is not mentally ill and that he doesn't have huge psychological issues driving him? Are you trying to imply that Cap doesn't have significant issues that drive him to do things like hiding the true nature of the deaths of Howard and Maria Stark, a lie that drives Tony to try and kill Bucky? Just because their reasons for opposing each other are good doesn't mean that they don't have severe mental problems driving that reasoning. Tony is driven by guilt over Sokovia and that he got a face put to the consequences of his conflict. Cap literally cannot function if Bucky is in danger. Those are not sane reasons for doing anything and yet they were present. Like, dude, dysfunction is the name of the game in superhero media.
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May 8, 2016 02:07
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Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:Ok, that reading of the superhero genre is fine but it doesn't have much to do with my post about Civil War, which again gives Tony and Cap reasonably sane reasons for being in conflict, whereas BvS is rather explicit about Batman's mental illness being a major driver of his conflict with Superman. No, BvS is explicit about Batman being ideologically opposed to Superman, despite him probably being a good guy. Even in his fantasy, he does not perceive him as inhuman. The threat is not "is Superman like us?"
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May 8, 2016 02:08
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It's because Superman is so human that Batman hates and despises him. All we need to get to King Superman is one bad day.  pictured: King Superman 
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May 8, 2016 02:10
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Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:Batmobile scene, Bat-brand scene. Honestly? Probably manslaughter at worst. He could probably get away with self-defense if he weren't a vigilante, but it's definitely not murder. Between this and people calling Superman a murderer because he killed Zod, I feel like we as a nerd collective have a very poor grasp on what is murder. I mean, argue about Superman killing all you want, I get that, but the instant someone calls him a murderer my eyes just instantly glaze over. Generally speaking, if a dude who is trying to kill you and everyone else is threatening a family and you snap his neck, no jury is gonna convict you.
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May 8, 2016 02:33
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HIJK posted:Are you trying to imply that Tony Stark is not mentally ill and that he doesn't have huge psychological issues driving him? Are you trying to imply that Cap doesn't have significant issues that drive him to do things like hiding the true nature of the deaths of Howard and Maria Stark, a lie that drives Tony to try and kill Bucky? Just because their reasons for opposing each other are good doesn't mean that they don't have severe mental problems driving that reasoning. Tony is driven by guilt over Sokovia and that he got a face put to the consequences of his conflict. Cap literally cannot function if Bucky is in danger. Those are not sane reasons for doing anything and yet they were present. Whether or not a trained psychologist would agree on Stark and Rogers need for some therapy is beside the point. Both still have rational reasons for signing or bucking the accords, and rational reasons for chasing or protecting Bucky. This is the core of their conflict in the film. HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:No, BvS is explicit about Batman being ideologically opposed to Superman, despite him probably being a good guy. Even in his fantasy, he does not perceive him as inhuman. The threat is not "is Superman like us?" And Superman is ideologically opposed to Batman, not because of the latter wanting to kill the former, but specifically because Batman has been killing and maiming people ever since his brain broke on or before Space 9/11. Without Batman being dangerously unhinged, half of their conflict doesn't exist. The film would just be waiting on the grassy knoll in Metropolis hoping Superman eventually flies within spear tossing range. Yoshifan823 posted:Honestly? Probably manslaughter at worst. He could probably get away with self-defense if he weren't a vigilante, but it's definitely not murder. A criminal attacking a truck full of other criminals in order to steal their stuff, then killing them when they fight back, is almost certainly guilty of murder. Mazzagatti2Hotty fucked around with this message at 02:40 on May 8, 2016 |
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May 8, 2016 02:35
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Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:And Superman is ideologically opposed to Batman, not because of the latter wanting to kill the former, but specifically because Batman has been killing and maiming people ever since his brain broke on or before Space 9/11. Well, by that metric, without Batman being dangerously unhinged, there is no Batman.
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May 8, 2016 02:37
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Harime Nui posted:Personally cannot wait for Cyborg: Rise of Booyah. Excuse me, it's Booyah Begins.
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May 8, 2016 02:39
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Harime Nui posted:Personally cannot wait for Cyborg: Rise of Booyah. Teen Titans Go Cyborg best Cyborg. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFahw6W1M7w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GM8tRdFaWS0
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May 8, 2016 02:40
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:Well, by that metric, without Batman being dangerously unhinged, there is no Batman. 
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May 8, 2016 02:42
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TTG being a roaring success and having more money than they could possibly need to make their 10 minute shorts in the face of every fan between the ages of 17 and 35 baying for its blood is so great. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgmLYtDvAa4
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May 8, 2016 02:44
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Harime Nui posted:TTG being a roaring success and having more money than they could possibly need to make their 10 minute shorts in the face of every fan between the ages of 17 and 35 baying for its blood is so great. The recent one where they become slumlords is the best one because it's in response to those people demanding a lesson.
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May 8, 2016 02:50
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Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:They absolutely do communicate with each other. They just don't trust each other, again for understandable reasons. Cap never tells Stark or his team about the existence of Zemo or what he and Sam saw in the holding cell or what Bucky said about the other super assassins. That could've at least bought them some time or had extra resources, like the rational thing is for Starks team to say "okay we are going to put WS on lockdown but we will help you track Zemo on the chance this is legit" and Cap should agree to that. These are people who have fought together for years, they could've solved this in half the time it took them to gather other people to help murder each other.
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May 8, 2016 03:12
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Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:Ok, that reading of the superhero genre is fine but it doesn't have much to do with my post about Civil War, which again gives Tony and Cap reasonably sane reasons for being in conflict, whereas BvS is rather explicit about Batman's mental illness being a major driver of his conflict with Superman. And also the fact that he's lost his way and is totally in the wrong (which he realizes in a way that is mostly awkward because Superman has to call his mother by her first name for it to work). I mean it's probably playing up the mental illness aspect a bit. Fair game because he's Batman; the scene where Keaton Batman sleeps with the love interest and she wakes up to find him sleeping hanging upside down from an exercise bar is probably the most memorable take on that in films. But what's really wrong in BvS is he's lost hope, and he first realizes this and, after Superman died, makes correcting the mistake his motivation going forward. Whether you read Iron Man as insane or just dangerously egotistical, I don't think he really learns that sort of lesson from his mistakes in Civil War or beforehand. Sidenote: Ultron is built by Pym in the comics. Pym has serious mental health issues. And based Ultron's AI on his own brainwaves. And he has never, ever lived it down. They're currently merged into a single being according to the wiki. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 03:18 on May 8, 2016 |
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May 8, 2016 03:14
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Guy A. Person posted:Cap never tells Stark or his team about the existence of Zemo or what he and Sam saw in the holding cell or what Bucky said about the other super assassins. That's literally the first thing Cap says to Tony before the airport throwdown.
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May 8, 2016 03:15
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He says like a super vague and abbreviated "we're trying to stop 6 more just like him" in the middle of a heated argument after they've been on the run for 24 hours. Not the same as contacting them immediately with all the info they have.
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May 8, 2016 03:16
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Guy A. Person posted:Cap never tells Stark or his team about the existence of Zemo or what he and Sam saw in the holding cell or what Bucky said about the other super assassins. That could've at least bought them some time or had extra resources, like the rational thing is for Starks team to say "okay we are going to put WS on lockdown but we will help you track Zemo on the chance this is legit" and Cap should agree to that. These are people who have fought together for years, they could've solved this in half the time it took them to gather other people to help murder each other. I absolutely thought he did, in the preamble to the airport fight. And again to Black Widow in the hanger. This is why Tony admits to Cap that he was right after getting the evidence that backed up Cap's claims.
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May 8, 2016 03:18
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Guy A. Person posted:He says like a super vague and abbreviated "we're trying to stop 6 more just like him" in the middle of a heated argument after they've been on the run for 24 hours. Not the same as contacting them immediately with all the info they have. He tells Tony the doctor from the UN activated Bucky and is on the way to activate 5 more just like him. That's all the info they have at this point, they don't know who Zemo is or if he's working for someone. And this is before any of them start punching. It's not heated at all until Tony makes the first move. Tony's response is that Cap doesn't know what he's talking about that he was given 36 hours to bring Bucky in and he's losing his patience.
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May 8, 2016 03:19
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Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:I absolutely thought he did, in the preamble to the airport fight. And again to Black Widow in the hanger. This is why Tony admits to Cap that he was right after getting the evidence that backed up Cap's claims. he tells it to Tony in the preamble in the same sense as one of those sick Conspiracy Keanu memes where they say "What if I told u...Bucky was innocent all along???"
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May 8, 2016 03:20
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I fully admit I might be misremembering but what I remember is a quick "there's 6 more just like him we need to go stop" and again, nothing about Zemo's infiltration or Buckys subsequent cooperation or like an actual suggestion they work together.
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May 8, 2016 03:20
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X-O posted:He tells Tony the doctor from the UN activated Bucky and is on the way to activate 5 more just like him. That's all the info they have at this point, they don't know who Zemo is or if he's working for someone. And this is before any of them start punching. It's not heated at all until Tony makes the first move. Tony's response is that Cap doesn't know what he's talking about that he was given 36 hours to bring Bucky in and he's losing his patience. Ok if that's the case I was mistaken but I still think calling Stark with that info and a compromise along the lines of "we need to hold Bucky at the Avengers compound with guards we trust while another team tracks this lead" would have been the rational way to approach this. And Stark just dismissing what his friend was saying outright (does he think this was some lie?) is a dick move in either case. Again, this isn't even something that bothers me but "this was totally rational while BvS was contrived and insane" strikes me as biased. Guy A. Person fucked around with this message at 03:28 on May 8, 2016 |
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May 8, 2016 03:26
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Guy A. Person posted:I fully admit I might be misremembering but what I remember is a quick "there's 6 more just like him we need to go stop" and again, nothing about Zemo's infiltration or Buckys subsequent cooperation or like an actual suggestion they work together. You're just remembering wrong. He tells him that it was the doctor was behind all of it and that Bucky was not to blame. Tony just tells him that his judgment is off.
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May 8, 2016 03:26
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Ok yea that's fair I legit forgot about him saying the UN doctor was at fault
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May 8, 2016 03:27
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The MSJ posted:Also Marvel have been reading this thread:
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May 8, 2016 03:27
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Guy A. Person posted:Ok if that's the case I was mistaken but I still think calling Stark with that info and a compromise along the lines of "we need to hold Bucky at the Avengers compound with guards we trust while another team tracks this lead" would have been the rational way to approach this. And Stark just dismissing what his friend was saying outright (does he think this was some lie?) is a dick move in either case. Actually, Steve's first instinct is to do just that. When he and Sam have Bucky in the vice he tells Sam they should call Tony and Sam is the one that's adamant that Tony won't believe them and that even if he did that the Sokovia Accords would prevent him from getting involved.
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May 8, 2016 03:30
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Yea and for a guy who is stubborn enough to make himself an international criminal rather than sign the accords, he doesn't put up much of a fight against Sam on that front
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May 8, 2016 03:34
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The anti-aging CGI technology is getting pretty crazy. It was fantastic in Ant-Man, but in Civil War the flashback version of Tony looks like they teleported RDJ out from the set of Ally Mcbeal and saved him from drugs. I'm excited to see how they put this to use in the future for other movies. Also, Civil War removed about 99% of my doubts about the new Spider-Man and amazed me that Marisa Tomei has barely aged in 20 years. She may have been injected with super soldier serum and frozen in the arctic.
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May 8, 2016 03:47
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Guy A. Person posted:Again, this isn't even something that bothers me but "this was totally rational while BvS was contrived and insane" strikes me as biased. I didn't say BvS was contrived and insane, just that the plot hinges on Batman and Luthor being insane which they are both actually portrayed as on screen to varying degrees.
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May 8, 2016 03:48
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:The anti-aging CGI technology is getting pretty crazy. It was fantastic in Ant-Man, but in Civil War the flashback version of Tony looks like they teleported RDJ out from the set of Ally Mcbeal and saved him from drugs. Holy crap this is something I wanted to comment on, that was great. They made Stark look like Ferris Bueller it was excellent
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May 8, 2016 03:49
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Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:I didn't say BvS was contrived and insane, just that the plot hinges on Batman and Luthor being insane which they are both actually portrayed as on screen to varying degrees. Ok well fair point then, I thought that was a "these characters needed to act stupid for this to work" sorry about that. This I will agree with
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May 8, 2016 03:53
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