House of the Dying Sun: Freespace + Flotilla - Early Access starts June 7!

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > House of the Dying Sun: Freespace + Flotilla - Early Access starts June 7!

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Orv: May 4, 2011

Now I remember that font.

(Or basically any sci-fi cover from that era.)

# ? May 26, 2016 17:57

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# ? May 13, 2024 23:48

lollontee: Nov 4, 2014; Can't post for 10 years!

Kairo posted:

It is all hand-crafted now. This is due to the combat sandbox really needing it. The RNG would basically give me mediocre encounters 80% of the time, terrible encounters 15% of the time, and great encounters 5% of the time (and this was probably by accident). Infinite encounter varieties are neat, but only if you can guarantee it's gonna be awesome a majority of the time.

Some kinds of combat are great with the volatility of randomness, like Diablo. But compare that with something like Dark Souls, which is superficially similar, but utterly dependent on level design. But IMO, it has WAY better combat. Bloodborne was interesting because they tried to RNG with the the chalice dungeons and it fell kinda flat. TIE and Freespace have similar combat sandboxes, which is why they require someone to actually do the work and design fun combat.

Also, the warping around is a nice fantasy, but it utterly failed all sorts of playtesting. People had a hard time mastering it, and even then they thought it was boring. One of my testers literally turned around and asked if they could go back and play the PAX demo level. Ouch.

It also was a huge amount of work, and it wasn't panning out, so it got axed.

EDIT: I managed to convert the coolest aspects of the open-worldy version over to the new world order, like the flagship, alarms, and stuff. But it is literally the "Get me to the interesting parts right away and gently caress everything else," version of the game.

Im curious, how did you select for your testers? Are you sure they represented your core audience's preferences vis a vis the warping around thingy?

# ? May 26, 2016 18:01

Kairo: Jun 21, 2003

NmareBfly posted:

A wave-clear type mode would be cool but I'm all for bespoke content if it's more fun. I really liked the idea of chasing people around the system map, but getting the AI to respond well to what you're doing while being fun to fight is the sort of thing you can iterate on forever. Roguelike stuff works best and it more fun when you can put chunks of a map together instead of just trying to generate everything, and when the map is the size of a solar system that gets sort of impossible fast (I'm guessing.)

Yeah the wave clear is coming (it broke as I was working on this new stuff and I haven't had time to fix it back up).

But the system-wide thing sounds better in theory than it actually ended up being. Have you ever played DotA? Keeping track of the minimap while you're being asked to do complex combat tasks is BRUTAL. Now add another minimap on top of that minimap and imagine how much more brutal that would be.

I think the stalky, hunty system game is still a neat idea but it would be much better served as something that's not ALSO a cockpit sim and not ALSO an RTS-lite. Hell, I would make that game completely run from the radar screen to do it justice, sort of like http://objectsgame.com/

# ? May 26, 2016 18:01

timn: Mar 16, 2010

So in a way is this coming back to the pre-planned mission design of the original prototype? Is this more like Rainbow Six in space again? That was also a really cool concept.

# ? May 26, 2016 18:08

Kairo: Jun 21, 2003

Friendly Humour posted:

Im curious, how did you select for your testers? Are you sure they represented your core audience's preferences vis a vis the warping around thingy?

Friends, family, colleagues.

They are pretty hardcore PC and console gamers so they do represent my core audience (and me) pretty well. Quite a few play games like Elite but many don't. They do play the poo poo out of stuff like Souls, Destiny, DotA, League, XCOM, etc. It's not like they are my grandmother.

# ? May 26, 2016 18:12

Just Offscreen: Jun 29, 2006; We must hope that our current selves will one day step aside to make room for better versions of us.

Kairo posted:

Friends, family, colleagues.

They are pretty hardcore PC and console gamers so they do represent my core audience (and me) pretty well. Quite a few play games like Elite but many don't. They do play the poo poo out of stuff like Souls, Destiny, DotA, League, XCOM, etc. It's not like they are my grandmother.

Are you saying Granny Kairo wouldn't appreciate a fine space sim? In that case shame on you.

# ? May 26, 2016 18:19

Kairo: Jun 21, 2003

Just Offscreen posted:

Are you saying Granny Kairo wouldn't appreciate a fine space sim? In that case shame on you.

LOL

Maybe it's just because I came from console development, but I've noticed a weirdly high amount of defensiveness about complexity with space stuff. Like assumptions that other people are just dumb when the design is actually just bad. Makes me sad, man.

(Not saying this is what you were getting at Friendly Humour)

# ? May 26, 2016 18:26

lollontee: Nov 4, 2014; Can't post for 10 years!

Kairo posted:

Friends, family, colleagues.

They are pretty hardcore PC and console gamers so they do represent my core audience (and me) pretty well. Quite a few play games like Elite but many don't. They do play the poo poo out of stuff like Souls, Destiny, DotA, League, XCOM, etc. It's not like they are my grandmother.

Cool! And it wasn't! I was just curious.

# ? May 26, 2016 18:36

Orv: May 4, 2011

Actual postin' time;

If the alarm system is still in but you're not moving between areas even within a system, is it basically just kill fast or get reinforcements for the enemy?
You mention that it's still an RTS-lite, what determines your resources/allied ships for each mission? Is it the crowns on the difficulty select screen as currency? How controllable are your allies?
How long are you tuning missions to take? Per difficulty? TIE missions could last a while in some of later deployments and they could get pretty taxing mentally if you're playing with full damage.
How many player weapons did you end up with?
The house system presumably gone in favor of all upgrades being earnable by the player?
Leadeboards?

# ? May 26, 2016 18:36

General Battuta: Feb 7, 2011; This is how you communicate with a fellow intelligence: you hurt it, you keep on hurting it, until you can distinguish the posts from the screams.

Kairo posted:

It is all hand-crafted now. This is due to the combat sandbox really needing it. The RNG would basically give me mediocre encounters 80% of the time, terrible encounters 15% of the time, and great encounters 5% of the time (and this was probably by accident). Infinite encounter varieties are neat, but only if you can guarantee it's gonna be awesome a majority of the time.

...

EDIT: I managed to convert the coolest aspects of the open-worldy version over to the new world order, like the flagship, alarms, and stuff. But it is literally the "Get me to the interesting parts right away and gently caress everything else," version of the game.

I played a lot of the roguelike version when it had multiple simulated star systems with patrols moving around (NDA breach Kairo drones CIRCLING MY HOUSE) and yeah, unfortunately this was...really the case. You could get amazing pitched fights over a target, and running battles fleeing from a superior force. But like combat in EVE Online it was mostly downtime: long runs to supply points, trivial chore-fights like clearing guards at gates. Because your fleet losses were persistent, you spent a lot of time micromanaging your warships and exploiting the AI so they wouldn't get themselves blown up. And there was even currency farming, you could disable carriers and endlessly farm fighter spawns.

The handcrafted campaign missions are all good fights. There's zero downtime, once you fail you just restart instantly, so you get into a wonderful flow state. Missions are exactly the right size to play over and over again, without losing a lot of progress if you die at the end.

# ? May 26, 2016 18:36

The Chad Jihad: Feb 24, 2007

Yeah I'm not really interested in scripted encounters. It sounds like the change worked out fine, so that's good

# ? May 26, 2016 18:52

Ciaphas: Nov 20, 2005; > BEWARE, COWARD

My hype levels for a new and good space combat game are still through the fuckin' roof

# ? May 26, 2016 18:55

Big Bowie Bonanza: Dec 30, 2007; please tell me where i can date this cute boy

I am even more hyped now that it's obvious it won't be like first person space Diablo. Tight single player experiences are hard to come by nowadays and I have serious sandbox fatigue.

# ? May 26, 2016 18:58

SilentW: Apr 3, 2009; my It dept hgere is fucking clwonshoes, and as someone hwo used to do IT for 9 years it pains me to see them fbe so terriuble

I'm not sorry I did this.

quote:

There is a house among the spacelanes
They call the Dying Sun
And it's been the ruin of many a empire
And God, I'm part of one
My mother was a captain
She sailed for the house of queens
My father was a gunnery man
Down in New Orleans
Now the only thing a gunner needs
Is a rammer and a shell
And the only time he's satisfied
Is when he's on the road to hell
Oh mother, tell your children
Not to do what I have done
Spend your lives in sin and misery
Fighting the House of the Dying Sun
Well, I got one foot on the gangway
The other foot in the 'lock
I'm goin' back to New Orleans
To join with those I mock
Well, there is a among the spacelanes
They call the Dying Sun
And it's been the ruin of many an empire
And God, I'm part of one

# ? May 26, 2016 18:58

Mustache Ride: Sep 11, 2001

SilentW posted:

I'm not sorry I did this.

quote:
There is a house among the spacelanes
They call the Dying Sun
And it's been the ruin of many a empire
And God, I'm part of one
My mother was a captain
She sailed for the house of queens
My father was a gunnery man
Down in New Orleans
Now the only thing a gunner needs
Is a rammer and a shell
And the only time he's satisfied
Is when he's on the road to hell
Oh mother, tell your children
Not to do what I have done
Spend your lives in sin and misery
Fighting the House of the Dying Sun
Well, I got one foot on the gangway
The other foot in the 'lock
I'm goin' back to New Orleans
To join with those I mock
Well, there is a among the spacelanes
They call the Dying Sun
And it's been the ruin of many an empire
And God, I'm part of one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eZqRmUMRIg

# ? May 26, 2016 18:59

Thirsty Dog: May 31, 2007

Yay June!

to the roguelike / randomization element being ditched. That's a huge loss.

# ? May 26, 2016 19:17

HerpicleOmnicron5: May 31, 2013; How did this smug dummkopf ever make general?

Yeah, its just the number of them that I am worried about. 14 missions doesnt sound like much (maybe thats more than 14 fights, which is what just saying 14 missions sounds like) so I kinda wish there was something deeper than wave clear that I could do endlessly.

Will there be a mission maker/more missions released after launch? Thats the thing that gave Freespace and X-Wing longevity.

# ? May 26, 2016 19:19

Beer4TheBeerGod: Aug 23, 2004; Exciting Lemon

Well I'm disappointed to hear about the change, but so long as the core gameplay is fun I'm excited to see how things turn out.

# ? May 26, 2016 19:20

Thyrork: Apr 21, 2010; "COME PLAY MECHS M'LANCER."

Or at least use Retrograde Mini's to make cool mechs and fantasy stuff.; Slippery Tilde

Everything said changes wise sounds good. I'll be ecstatic if you're basically giving me Homeworld TIE-Fighter, with the hint of more once this is out of the door. I don't need my every game to be an infinite content engine, and having a story plus lovingly crafted missions appeals to me as much as having a sandbox.

# ? May 26, 2016 19:23

Bolow: Feb 27, 2007

Kairo posted:

It's not quite linear. The overworld opens up a bit as you go, but it is dropping you off into premade, heavily designed encounters.

I'm sure some of you are gonna be disappointed, but my biggest regret is not cutting that stuff sooner.

So kind of like Star Fox 64?

# ? May 26, 2016 19:23

Ciaphas: Nov 20, 2005; > BEWARE, COWARD

HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:

Yeah, its just the number of them that I am worried about. 14 missions doesnt sound like much (maybe thats more than 14 fights, which is what just saying 14 missions sounds like) so I kinda wish there was something deeper than wave clear that I could do endlessly.

Will there be a mission maker/more missions released after launch? Thats the thing that gave Freespace and X-Wing longevity.

I can't really look it up at work, but didn't Freespace 2 have not much more than a dozen and a bit missions? Granted you mention the map maker but still.

# ? May 26, 2016 19:28

Bolow: Feb 27, 2007

Ciaphas posted:

I can't really look it up at work, but didn't Freespace 2 have not much more than a dozen and a bit missions? Granted you mention the map maker but still.

35 if you do the SOC loop missions. There's probably about 15 or so really well done missions, quite a few alright ones and like 2 which are mostly plot poo poo

# ? May 26, 2016 19:31

Terminally Bored: Oct 31, 2011; Twenty-five dollars and a six pack to my name

Ciaphas posted:

I can't really look it up at work, but didn't Freespace 2 have not much more than a dozen and a bit missions? Granted you mention the map maker but still.

It had 35 missions, actually.

efb

I can see why people are not happy about the change. Procedurally generated missions, especially with the enemy units prowling around was a big part of the appeal for me. Still cool the game's coming out.

Terminally Bored fucked around with this message at 19:34 on May 26, 2016

# ? May 26, 2016 19:31

Orv: May 4, 2011

A bunch of FS2 missions are just kind of experiencing a space thing, interspersed pretty evenly throughout the campaign.

# ? May 26, 2016 19:32

Thyrork: Apr 21, 2010; "COME PLAY MECHS M'LANCER."

Or at least use Retrograde Mini's to make cool mechs and fantasy stuff.; Slippery Tilde

Bolow posted:

35 if you do the SOC loop missions. There's probably about 15 or so really well done missions, quite a few alright ones and like 2 which are mostly plot poo poo

I must admit when I think of Freespace 2 missions, I think more of Bearbaiting and the SoC arc, and less the traitor hunting and nebular exploring.

# ? May 26, 2016 19:34

Tres Burritos: Sep 3, 2009

Kairo posted:

It is all hand-crafted now. This is due to the combat sandbox really needing it. The RNG would basically give me mediocre encounters 80% of the time, terrible encounters 15% of the time, and great encounters 5% of the time (and this was probably by accident). Infinite encounter varieties are neat, but only if you can guarantee it's gonna be awesome a majority of the time.

I gotta say, the latest DOOM has illustrated really well how much level design and encounter design matter. That game just flows so much better than any game I've played in ages. And by that I mean that a fixed campaign honestly sounds better than a RNG driven system.

# ? May 26, 2016 19:36

Skoll: Jul 26, 2013; Oh You'll Love My Toxic Love; Grimey Drawer

Here's hoping this turns out a lot better than that OTHER goon space game.

Skoll fucked around with this message at 19:40 on May 26, 2016

# ? May 26, 2016 19:37

Kairo: Jun 21, 2003

Players who only do some of the bonus objectives are probably gonna finish it in 2-3 hours on easy. Medium and hard are considerably longer, but are more fun. It's like playing Halo on Legendary, or Hotline Miami fights.

I'm not committing to anything after 1.0 launch (mission editor, more encounters), even though that stuff sounds neat. If it makes financial sense to keep adding stuff, I'm in, but it also might be a better use of my time to start porting or even move on to something else.

# ? May 26, 2016 19:39

Ciaphas: Nov 20, 2005; > BEWARE, COWARD

Oh 35? Dang a lot of them must have been pretty fuckin' unmemorable.

Far as HotDS goes my attention span seems to decline every other month, and I've always been more of a themepark than a sandbox dude, so a short directed experience like HotDS is turning into suits me just fine

Looking forward to committing the cardinal sin of buying into early access

# ? May 26, 2016 19:42

Sulphagnist: Oct 10, 2006; WARNING! INTRUDERS DETECTED

All the "Everything is procedurally generated! It's a roguelike in space!" stuff coming from a one man dev was a little too good to be true... so it's sort of encouraging to hear the scope has been narrowed and made tighter.

Make a ton of money from Dying Sun and execute the original vision in Dying Sun 2?

# ? May 26, 2016 19:44

quiggy: Aug 7, 2010; [in Russian] Oof.

Antti posted:

All the "Everything is procedurally generated! It's a roguelike in space!" stuff coming from a one man dev was a little too good to be true... so it's sort of encouraging to hear the scope has been narrowed and made tighter.

Make a ton of money from Dying Sun and execute the original vision in Dying Sun 2?

I'd also pay good money for a DLC that adds a roguelike mode. Doesn't have to be perfect, but the randomized maps were a big selling point for me.

# ? May 26, 2016 19:46

Pylons: Mar 16, 2009

Antti posted:

All the "Everything is procedurally generated! It's a roguelike in space!" stuff coming from a one man dev was a little too good to be true... so it's sort of encouraging to hear the scope has been narrowed and made tighter.

Make a ton of money from Dying Sun and execute the original vision in Dying Sun 2?

I mean, it sounds like it was working, but just flawed, and I can understand why - the tester's experience above reminded me heavily of X3, and X3 only really works because of the huge economic sim it has going in the background to replace all the ships you lost (and even then it's a loving pain to get automation of replacing your losses going, especially without mods).

# ? May 26, 2016 19:47

dupersaurus: Aug 1, 2012; Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

Terminally Bored posted:

I can see why people are not happy about the change. Procedurally generated missions, especially with the enemy units prowling around was a big part of the appeal for me. Still cool the game's coming out.

Otherwise known as "why you don't take other people's money too soon in development"

# ? May 26, 2016 19:47

LaSquida: Nov 1, 2012; Just keep on walkin'.

dupersaurus posted:

Otherwise known as "why you don't take other people's money too soon in development"

Kairo lied
Proceduralgenerationinenemystarfighternowhouseofthedyingsun died

# ? May 26, 2016 19:49

HerpicleOmnicron5: May 31, 2013; How did this smug dummkopf ever make general?

Yeah, I'd actually not mind just buying the older build with it in, warts and all for a bit extra. I like infinite content, regardless of its quality if the basic mechanics are good. Fighting the same battles gets boring if you're not of the speedrun/challenge following sort. I'll probably beat the campaign once on medium and never touch it again.

# ? May 26, 2016 19:49

Kairo: Jun 21, 2003

dupersaurus posted:

Otherwise known as "why you don't take other people's money too soon in development"

This. A thousand times.

With all the changes, I can TOTALLY understand people being disappointed, but having not taken any money, I don't feel bad at all.

Films also go through this process at the end all the time. They are long, boring, random, weird messes that you never see. Games are weird because we have to show so much up front.

# ? May 26, 2016 19:51

lollontee: Nov 4, 2014; Can't post for 10 years!

Kairo posted:

Players who only do some of the bonus objectives are probably gonna finish it in 2-3 hours on easy. Medium and hard are considerably longer, but are more fun. It's like playing Halo on Legendary, or Hotline Miami fights.

I'm not committing to anything after 1.0 launch (mission editor, more encounters), even though that stuff sounds neat. If it makes financial sense to keep adding stuff, I'm in, but it also might be a better use of my time to start porting or even move on to something else.

As paradox proves, if you make quality DLC for a single player game, people will keep buying it for years. Granted, sounds like Paradox games have much more playtime in them to keep customers occupied while they work on their DLC, than HotDS...

# ? May 26, 2016 19:55

Zmej: Nov 6, 2005

this makes me pretty pleased to hear it's more about replaying it on ramping up difficulty and it changes the game. those are always my most memorable games. I've realized bloated open-world games really turn me off especially when it just feels empty or boring most of the time (see Dragon's Dogma). I'm very excited and I've been yelling at friends about this game for months!

# ? May 26, 2016 19:55

Terminally Bored: Oct 31, 2011; Twenty-five dollars and a six pack to my name

dupersaurus posted:

Otherwise known as "why you don't take other people's money too soon in development"

Absolutely. I understand why it got cut and why Kairo doesn't want to promise anything. Just saying the RNG feature sounded (and looked from the streams) really really cool. Like playing a constantly evolving board game with your little space fighter inside it.

Ciaphas posted:

Oh 35? Dang a lot of them must have been pretty fuckin' unmemorable.

Hahaha. Yeah. If there's one thing FS2 is known for it's having unmemorable missions.

# ? May 26, 2016 19:57

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# ? May 13, 2024 23:48

General Battuta: Feb 7, 2011; This is how you communicate with a fellow intelligence: you hurt it, you keep on hurting it, until you can distinguish the posts from the screams.

FS2's missions are almost all really good for the time. The basic game mechanics are nearly flawless and the writing's superb.

Speaking of, I've been playing FS2 and TIE Fighter for oh god 17 years and Enemy Starfighter's flight model is fun as hell and an absolute joy to tool around in.

# ? May 26, 2016 20:02

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > House of the Dying Sun: Freespace + Flotilla - Early Access starts June 7!

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