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Heathen posted:Nighthawk reminded me of the old Milestone Comics from the 90s but not in a good way. It's a shame because I really enjoy Power Man and Iron Fist.
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May 27, 2016 00:46
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Diet Poison posted:At very least, these have to show up in the background of a splash page of Ms Marvel, now. It was from Squirrel Girl this week!
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May 27, 2016 01:15
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Toxxupation posted:Also this week's Hellcat was super, duper bad. Like really bad. I guess Ms. Marvel/USG sucked up all the amazing and Hellcat had to be dumb and boring and weirdly convoluted. Really? I thought it was still great. Although I do look forward to the next issue having Williams back on art.
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May 27, 2016 02:02
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Jesus christ, "Making Cap Hydra means that Marvel hates Jews" is already starting up http://panels.net/2016/05/26/on-steve-rogers-1-antisemitism-and-publicity-stunts/ I like how the comments are fully of "we are not here to educate/debate you". Someone I know wrote a very good defense of it http://www.livingbetweenwednesdays.com/blog/limydup1ec6x3oeo5p4j80ec85u5ee twistedmentat fucked around with this message at 02:12 on May 27, 2016 |
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May 27, 2016 02:07
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Honestly while I don't think Marvel 'hates Jews' I do agree as a Jewish guy who has Cap as one of his favorite heroes that it's pretty loving lovely to use 'what if Cap was a secret not-nazi this whole time????' as a cheap clearly going to be quickly retconned cliffhanger. The comic was made by two Jewish men who got loving death threats and tons of hate for it, and it's not like antisemitism is somehow not a thing anymore. It's a good bit different than Superman having a weird issue of "I HAVE TO CUT OFF JIMMY'S HEAD...FOR HIS OWN GOOD" or whatever. It's not some Jew hating pro-nazi agenda but like 99% of the people upset about it aren't saying it is, we're saying it's disrespectful and really just kinda tasteless and tone deaf. Also yea it is kinda lame to go off the big 'well there's SOMETHING coming' reaction they had to the whole gay Cap poo poo into 'haha j/k he's a fuckin nazi'. That's kinda a hosed up fake-out to do.
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May 27, 2016 02:23
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I can see being of the opinion that Hydra shouldn't even exist in the comics, or that they should be completely divorced from the idea of real-world racists/nazis. That's a legit thing, that maybe we shouldn't use them in the same way Spider-Man shouldn't really be fighting ISIS. But if you accept that Hydra is an acceptable comic book villain organization, then Cap isn't sacred in terms of comic book tropes like mind control or whatever.
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May 27, 2016 02:28
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JoshTheStampede posted:I can see being of the opinion that Hydra shouldn't even exist in the comics, or that they should be completely divorced from the idea of real-world racists/nazis. That's a legit thing, that maybe we shouldn't use them in the same way Spider-Man shouldn't really be fighting ISIS. But if you accept that Hydra is an acceptable comic book villain organization, then Cap isn't sacred in terms of comic book tropes like mind control or whatever. Which would be one thing, but then Brevoort goes online and pulls the completely un-credible "It's not mind control. NOT AN IMAGINARY STORY!" crap. It paints him either as an idiot who believes his own writer when he's told that, or a liar who has the audacity to act confused when the provocative, borderline offensive thing he signed off on... provokes and offends some of the audience.
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May 27, 2016 02:33
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Gaz-L posted:Which would be one thing, but then Brevoort goes online and pulls the completely un-credible "It's not mind control. NOT AN IMAGINARY STORY!" crap. It paints him either as an idiot who believes his own writer when he's told that, or a liar who has the audacity to act confused when the provocative, borderline offensive thing he signed off on... provokes and offends some of the audience. Well, it's not mind control, and it's not an elseworlds, it's really, truly Cap. Because Kobik decided it was.
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May 27, 2016 02:35
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I think the difference is A) this was Issue 1, I know comic reboots happen every year at this point but the general rule is the first bit should probably be how you, say, set the tone for your run or whatever, and B) Cap HAS been brainwashed/cloned/whatever by Hydra before, but it was never treated as some dramatic cliffhanger where you were meant to think it was the 'real' Captain America at the end and all. Does that make sense? Like, the tone is always that the reader knew 'alright, something fucky's happening here' or whatever, it wasn't teased as a ~big shakeup~ or whatever and then finished off with just Hail Hydra. That carries a weight to it that's meant to feel more genuine and all, like it's the actual direction the character's taking, and that's a good deal different then 'aw poo poo Red Skull's got the mind ray again' or whatever. Honestly while I do genuinely feel it's a tasteless swerve to do and all, my biggest issue is that it's loving stupid. Like, ok we get it Hail Hydra is a meme now, it was really cool when it was an actual surprise but now having a hero just at the last minute be all 'lol jk nazi time Hail Hydra' for your big 'dun dun duuuuuun' moment it's just a lame twist. We all know Captain America isn't going to stay a not-nazi, the best case here is what, he and Bucky are now gonna wind up pretty much the fully same character now that Steve's got Hydra PTSD too and poo poo?
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May 27, 2016 02:35
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It's probably a clone. And like everything else, it will last 6 issues. It's gunna be alright. Promise
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May 27, 2016 02:42
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I imagine Spencer's whole run will be about this. So it sets the tone just fine.
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May 27, 2016 02:42
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Norns posted:It's probably a clone. And like everything else, it will last 6 issues. It's gunna be alright. Promise Honestly the fact that it's temporary doesn't make it better, it's just as tasteless to go 'haha no we're kidding it's cool'. Like, again I don't think Marvel 'hates' Jews or whatever but I do think it shows a bit of disrespect for the realities that the two Jews who made the comic they're now selling lived in to use 'Cap is a not-Nazi now' as a 'fun' twist and all. X-O posted:I imagine Spencer's whole run will be about this. So it sets the tone just fine. Fair enough there, yea hopefully at the very least this will pay off well. Honestly like I said before even beyond the whole tasteless element, I just really don't want this to be Captain America Winter Soldier 2 This Time It's Steve But It's The Same Thing Pretty Much or whatever.
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May 27, 2016 02:49
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Tatum Girlparts posted:The comic was made by two Jewish men who got loving death threats and tons of hate for it, and it's not like antisemitism is somehow not a thing anymore. Tatum Girlparts posted:Honestly the fact that it's temporary doesn't make it better, it's just as tasteless to go 'haha no we're kidding it's cool'. Like, again I don't think Marvel 'hates' Jews or whatever but I do think it shows a bit of disrespect for the realities that the two Jews who made the comic they're now selling lived in to use 'Cap is a not-Nazi now' as a 'fun' twist and all. Yeah good thing those two Jewish men never did a plotline where, say, Captain America met Hitler and did the "Heil Hitler" salute when it was revealed he was turned evil. https://twitter.com/chrisarrant/status/735557426888347649/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
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May 27, 2016 03:07
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Wanderer posted:
With special guest appearance by Dog Fighter from Weirdworld!
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May 27, 2016 03:20
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Toxxupation posted:Yeah good thing those two Jewish men never did a plotline where, say, Captain America met Hitler and did the "Heil Hitler" salute when it was revealed he was turned evil. Yes, that issue, and the issue before it, were literally all about Cap and Bucky captured by Nazis and brainwashed/tortured. It was 100% clear that it was in no way the 'real' Captain America at any point since like every other page Red Skull was all 'muahahaha soon Captain America will be our puppet to go murder I want to say Allied generals or some other dumb plan!' There was no 'fake-out' factor, there was no 'hey, big things coming, big changes for Cap' hype, it was literally always a brainwashing story from the very beginning of the issues.
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May 27, 2016 03:21
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I do love that Hitler thinks an old rear end chair can stop Captain America from murdering him, though. Oh Hitler, you idiot.
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May 27, 2016 03:21
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twistedmentat posted:Jesus christ, "Making Cap Hydra means that Marvel hates Jews" is already starting up quote:"Somehow a community that gets up in arms about whether or not Batman has a yellow circle behind his logo seems to think that being angry about this is stupid, or indicative of a lack of experience with comics.
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May 27, 2016 03:22
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BrianWilly posted:I like this article and it makes some good points. I think that's more of a good argument to not use Nazis (or the KKK or analogues like the Serpent Society) as villains at all. If it's too real, it's too real - I get that.
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May 27, 2016 03:29
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Its a pretty dumb perspective. No one is using "eleven million deaths as clickbait". Its a typical comic book story where the hero is suddenly the enemy, and Captain America's iconic enemies are Nazis. The same thing happened when he was mindcontrolled in the Kirby comic posted earlier. The only difference is the Kirby comic one was blatantly written as mind control and wrapped up quickly unlike this one which will try to have mystery and will last multiple issues because that is how comics are written today. There is mystery and things span multiple issues.
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May 27, 2016 03:29
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Tatum Girlparts posted:Yes, that issue, and the issue before it, were literally all about Cap and Bucky captured by Nazis and brainwashed/tortured. It was 100% clear that it was in no way the 'real' Captain America at any point since like every other page Red Skull was all 'muahahaha soon Captain America will be our puppet to go murder I want to say Allied generals or some other dumb plan!' There was no 'fake-out' factor, there was no 'hey, big things coming, big changes for Cap' hype, it was literally always a brainwashing story from the very beginning of the issues. And everyone who actually reads comics now doesn't actually buy that this is the new normal. It's like actually buying the Superman is dead or that Superior Spider-Man is the new permanent Spider-Man forever and ever or anything like that. So it's the exact same thing in this case. If anything, it's less offensive because Nick Spencer (whose past work on Sam Wilson supports this) will actually make Cap being Hydra into a character-significant plot point and examine it beyond an issue-selling gimmick that Lee and Kirby used to get people to buy Captain America on newsstands in 1967. If you're gonna make Cap Hydra, make Cap Hydra over going "oh he's been brainwashed for this one issue until he breaks free and punches Hitler in the face, hooray!". Commit to the premise and actually respect the stakes. There's literally no difference between the two. Complain all you want about it being handled badly or whatever (and I agree, the final two pages of Steve Rogers 1 weren't...great) but this isn't soiling some legacy or disrespecting its Jewish creators or some poo poo. That's my point. It might feel worse (and at first I felt it was some violation the same way as you), but thinking on it more this is exactly what comic books have done forever and ever. I'm willing to cut Spencer some slack because I like his work and he's very clearly a sensitive writer, and the stuff about the suicide bomber in the same issue was more about how easy it is to be misled and to belong to an organization that commits evil due to mere circumstance over true hatred in your heart. Doing it with Cap makes the symbolism even more concrete and establishes that nobody's exempt from being lied to or manipulated to evil ends by evil people.
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May 27, 2016 03:32
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quote:I am angry because how dare you use eleven million deaths as clickbait." This is grossly exaggerating the situation to a degree I should have seen coming, because this is the internet, but I am still shocked to see someone actually write out.
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May 27, 2016 03:32
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Tatum Girlparts posted:Yes, that issue, and the issue before it, were literally all about Cap and Bucky captured by Nazis and brainwashed/tortured. It was 100% clear that it was in no way the 'real' Captain America at any point since like every other page Red Skull was all 'muahahaha soon Captain America will be our puppet to go murder I want to say Allied generals or some other dumb plan!' There was no 'fake-out' factor, there was no 'hey, big things coming, big changes for Cap' hype, it was literally always a brainwashing story from the very beginning of the issues. I dunno. The article linked uses, as Brian Willy just stated, "how dare you use a million deaths as clickbait", but... in Lee and Kirby's case, this was fresh. This was while people were actually dying overseas. Fake-out or not, the pro hero was still being used provactively to create a sense that something was wrong. The social context was not one of neutrality, it wasn't a simpler time when things were less political. And... I don't know, I've been reading Spencer's run, and it's not shy about its politics. The first issue has the undercurrent of the country's youth being used and corrupted by Hydra. From the Red Skull's speech, you can draw clear associations to political figures in real life, who want to "make America great again" while infusing it with bigotry and isolationism. In a sense, even beyond Cap, the soul of America and even its history is being twisted and perverted by these people. I don't personally buy the whole "it's the REAL CAP" malarky as anything other than spoiler protection; from the use of the color red in flashbacks and everything that happened in Standoff, it's clear that something not right is going on with Steve, that an outside influence has taken hold of him and changed him. Nick Spencer is setting the two Captain Americas up on opposite sides, with the clear implication that Sam Wilson is going to be fighting for his friend's soul. The enemy isn't without, but within, and now it's taken control of something that once embodied goodness. That needs to be stopped. I don't think that's anti-thetical to Simon, Lee, and Kirby's work but very much in the spirit of it; it's just addressing a very different sort of conflict.
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May 27, 2016 03:36
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I find it funny how this will probably be forgotten by next week and nobody will care when Sam punches Red Skull in the Cap & Cap Crossover Issue Omega (six of six) and everything goes back to normal. lol that Remender caught poo poo over something he did on his Captain Falcon run (his romantic interest was kinda young i think?) and also began with Sam being evil because of magic bullshit from a crossover event
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May 27, 2016 03:37
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BrianWilly posted:I like this article and it makes some good points. It's a really gross perspective and pretends that certain issues are sacrosanct and can never be fictionalized, because they're too tragic or horrifying, which in and of itself is the whole endgoal of fascism. Like seriously at this point I've pulled pretty much a complete 180 on this whole thing. Spencer is a very sensitive, aware writer, and his failures are from wearing his politics on his sleeve when writing (like seriously I like his Sam Wilson run but at times I have to roll my eyes at how far-right everyone Cap punches in the face are at times. And I'm far more liberal than he is, probably, but at certain times it feels less "Captain America" and more "Captain Planet" in its politics). He's not gonna treat Hydra Cap with less then the utmost respect and he won't treat Hydra Cap as a "gimmick", and I know this because I've read the previous stories he wrote where he often bends over backwards to make sure to not offend (to the detriment of the story as a whole). It won't be "clickbait", if anything the heavy-handed liberalism will overwhelm the story.
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May 27, 2016 03:37
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Totbot posted:Its a pretty dumb perspective. No one is using "eleven million deaths as clickbait". Its a typical comic book story where the hero is suddenly the enemy, and Captain America's iconic enemies are Nazis. The same thing happened when he was mindcontrolled in the Kirby comic posted earlier. The only difference is the Kirby comic one was blatantly written as mind control and wrapped up quickly unlike this one which will try to have mystery and will last multiple issues because that is how comics are written today. There is mystery and things span multiple issues. The thing is there's a reason beyond 'old comics' that the first time it was done it was a clearer thing. It's because Hydra are loving Nazis. Like, the mind control happened in a straight up Nazi prison camp thing. They probably figured really fast 'hey we probably can't have Cap just hanging out in a death camp, right? Like, we have to make it super clear he's not exactly here willingly' so while he was getting brainwashed and shown off to Hitler you had poo poo like Bucky getting tortured with a fake execution and leading a riot and all. It was storytelling, to make it really clear where 'reality' is in this story. You know, because maybe they knew they probably shouldn't have it as a question mark if Captain loving America is really a Nazi or not. You can still have a mystery and storyline, that example was part of a multi-issue crossover story in fact! The mystery was just 'who was behind this and able to control Cap' and poo poo. It's not using eleven million deaths as clickbait but it is using the fact that the guy who used to punch Hitler suddenly is on the side of the people who are Marvel's version of the people who killed eleven million people, and that's a fair thing to say 'hey...gently caress that though'. Like, if there was a scene where Luke Cage suddenly said...what's Serpent Society's catchphrase? Whatever it is, that, while betraying another minority hero, you'd get why maybe a black fan of Luke Cage would go 'well gently caress that comic', right?
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May 27, 2016 03:40
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Tatum Girlparts posted:
Cap Sam Wilson teamed up with a former Serpent Society member (who used to be Steve Rogers' girlfriend in fact) to beat up the Serpent Society. So...this basically exactly happened. Under Nick Spencer. And nobody cared and nobody called it racist or clickbait.
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May 27, 2016 03:42
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Toxxupation posted:Cap Sam Wilson teamed up with a former Serpent Society member (who used to be Steve Rogers' girlfriend in fact) to beat up the Sepent Society. So...this basically exactly happened. Under Nick Spencer. That's...the exact opposite of what I was describing? Like, I'm not sure how you got 'if Luke Cage suddenly was in the not-KKK and actively helping them out as a cliffhanger' and turned it to 'that time Sam Wilson and an ex Serpent Society member kicked the poo poo out of Serpent Society'.
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May 27, 2016 03:44
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The Serpent Society is an informal team of snake-themed villains who are primarily motivated by financial gain. The Sons of the Serpent are a relatively small group of explicitly racist terrorists and criminals who, in a shocking Defenders story from the '70s, turned out to be bankrolled by a wealthy, self-loathing black man.
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May 27, 2016 03:45
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The entire issue of Captain America #1 is the modern day version of the cover of that old Superman comic where he murders a whole submarine of soldiers so that they can't tell the surface world that Superman has taken over the ocean and proclaimed himself king. It's trying to get you to read a story and see what the hell they are doing with this. And like that when it all settles Captain America won't be a Nazi just as Superman didn't murder soldiers. It's just in 2016 we let a story run more than 25 pages before resetting it.
X-O fucked around with this message at 03:48 on May 27, 2016 |
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May 27, 2016 03:45
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Wanderer posted:The Serpent Society is an informal team of snake-themed villains who are primarily motivated by financial gain. Thank you I meant Sons of the Serpent, my bad. Too many drat snakes.
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May 27, 2016 03:46
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Tatum Girlparts posted:That's...the exact opposite of what I was describing? Like, I'm not sure how you got 'if Luke Cage suddenly was in the not-KKK and actively helping them out as a cliffhanger' and turned it to 'that time Sam Wilson and an ex Serpent Society member kicked the poo poo out of Serpent Society'. Why are Lee and Kirby allowed to portray Cap as a Nazi, but Nick Spencer isn't allowed to portray Cap as a Nazi? Shouldn't you at least allow Spencer to gently caress it up before pillorying him?
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May 27, 2016 03:47
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Tatum Girlparts posted:You know, because maybe they knew they probably shouldn't have it as a question mark if Captain loving America is really a Nazi or not. No, its because comics were just written as more stand alone issues back then while current comics are written as basically TV seasons that span multiple issues.
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May 27, 2016 03:48
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Toxxupation posted:Cap Sam Wilson teamed up with a former Serpent Society member (who used to be Steve Rogers' girlfriend in fact) to beat up the Serpent Society. So...this basically exactly happened. Under Nick Spencer. And nobody cared and nobody called it racist or clickbait. The Serpent Society is just a group of snake-themed villains of various races. The Sons of the Serpent are the racist ones.
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May 27, 2016 03:50
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Tatum Girlparts posted:Thank you I meant Sons of the Serpent, my bad. Too many drat snakes. Actually, I think you might be off the hook on this one. I went back to look at those issues of Sam's book and it turns out, just to make things confusing, the Society was funding a group of the Sons.
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May 27, 2016 03:50
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BrianWilly posted:I like this article and it makes some good points. Eeeeh, I could get behind that idea if it were attached to actual reality at more than one point. Nazis and Nazism can represent a whole bunch of things, from the Holocaust to bigotry in general to Evil Germans to the enemy from the Last Good War. Nazis have been stock villains since before the US entered the war, and I'd say that culture decided they could be used casually sometime before a guy won two Emmy awards for playing Colonel Klink in 168 episodes of Hogan's Heroes, and The Producers won roughly every Tony on Earth for regaling us with the japes and follies of Springtime for Hitler. It's obviously fine not to like a thing, and it's also fine to just feel that something rubs you the wrong way, but imo it's silly to pull a "No, it's the children who are wrong" and claim that it's outrageous to use Nazis in light pop fiction, when it's been so bland and unmoving as to be cliché by the time Indiana Jones did it.
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May 27, 2016 03:52
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Were people this upset over the JLAxis? Because that had a mother loving ubermensch blond Superman with a goddamn swastika on his chest.
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May 27, 2016 03:53
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X-O posted:The entire issue of Captain American #1 is the modern day version of the cover of that old Superman comic where he murders a whole submarine of soldiers so that they can't tell the surface world that Superman has taken over the ocean and proclaimed himself king. It's trying to get you to read a story and see what the hell they are doing with this. And like that when it all settles Captain America won't be a Nazi just as Superman didn't murder soldiers. It's just in 2016 we let a story run more than 25 pages before resetting it. Right, I get that, but like, Shuster and Siegel didn't...I dunno, have family members die in a sub crash or something? I can't really think of a solid parallel there but my main point is it's a different thing that turns it from 'that's a silly way to get people to buy issue 2' to 'that's kinda lovely, though'. The issue is Kirby and Simon had actual death threats for drawing a dude kicking the poo poo out of Hitler and all. Captain America was made as a reaction to Jewish men looking at Nazi Germany and going 'gently caress those guys'. His entire history is tangled up in that and to use 'tune in next issue to see if Cap is REALLY a nazi or what' is a different kind of thing.
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May 27, 2016 03:53
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Tatum Girlparts posted:Right, I get that, but like, Shuster and Siegel didn't...I dunno, have family members die in a sub crash or something? I can't really think of a solid parallel there but my main point is it's a different thing that turns it from 'that's a silly way to get people to buy issue 2' to 'that's kinda lovely, though'. The issue is Kirby and Simon had actual death threats for drawing a dude kicking the poo poo out of Hitler and all. Captain America was made as a reaction to Jewish men looking at Nazi Germany and going 'gently caress those guys'. His entire history is tangled up in that and to use 'tune in next issue to see if Cap is REALLY a nazi or what' is a different kind of thing. ...Which is exactly what Lee and Kirby did twenty years later. Again, why are Lee and Kirby allowed to make Cap into a Nazi but Spencer isn't allowed to make Cap into a Nazi?
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May 27, 2016 03:55
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I think the issue is compounded because there's been a sort of casual flirtation with "cool Nazis" in genre media recently and it's starting to make the Jewish community really uncomfortable. An instance that comes to mind is when you take Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch, erase their Jewish heritage, and have them willingly work for Hydra -- in-universe associated with Nazis -- in your big summer blockbuster film, without even thinking for a second about how problematic that is, and feels like a direct insult to Jewish representation. Which just reminds me of the horrid AXIS storyline that reamed out Holocaust survivor Magneto for daring to hate and kill Holocaust perpetrator Red Skull. So, like, Marvel -- or Kevin Feige or Joss Whedon or what have you -- have historically proven themselves to be really tone-deaf, if not outright loving offensive, when it comes to dealing with Jewish sensibilities and people are starting to notice. I think instances like those are coloring people's initial reactions to this Captain America story, because on the surface "Steve was secretly a part of Hydra even from way back in WWII" as some sort of hyped up clickbait storyline really just comes across like Marvel being really obtuse about this poo poo again.
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May 27, 2016 03:56
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Toxxupation posted:Why are Lee and Kirby allowed to portray Cap as a Nazi, but Nick Spencer isn't allowed to portray Cap as a Nazi? Shouldn't you at least allow Spencer to gently caress it up before pillorying him? Dial it back a notch dude I've been trying to be nothing but clear that I'm not 'pillorying' anyone here. I'm saying I don't like a thing and I think it's kinda lovely to do. If that was 'pillorying' then pretty much everyone is hitler now and this whole thing is moot anyway. Lee and Kirby are 'allowed' because again it was a super clear thing what the situation is from the first part of the story. There was never any ambiguity once you opened the comic, there was no 'woah you better buy the next issue to see if Cap REALLY loves Hitler now, huh?' Even though the story did indeed continue past the first issue. This feels lovely because it's telling me 'hey Jewish dude who grew up loving Captain America...you better buy next issue to see if your favorite hero is actually a Nazi or what, huh?' That's a really lame way to sell issue 2. Somehow Kirby and Lee sold their next issue on 'find out how they free Cap and find who's behind this' and it worked out just fine there.
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May 27, 2016 03:59
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