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Reading this page has made me glad that I hesitated to buy this game. It doesn't seem like this game's problems are ever going to get fixed. What happened? KF1 was almost perfect. I can't remember anything I disliked about it except the ridiculous grind.
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May 21, 2016 19:12
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Luchadork posted:What's the preferred Level 15 perk for Commando, Leadership or Call Out. Leaning towards Leadership. Callout is really nice for higher difficulties/playercounts and/or Patriarch; if you use leadership I'd swap to callout for the boss wave since it really helps if you roll the good boss instead of the poo poo boss. When you're dealing with like 150-200 zeds in a wave and it spawns 4 stalkers, having them be bright red instead of invisible behind the other 25 zeds on screen is ... really nice. Berserker .... the crovel is fast and great at cleaning up trash dudes. Just normal attack at head height and you can just go through clots like crazy. Heavy attack with it rarely. I dunno, it's pretty easy to just m1 > kill zeds. Not sure what's so bad about it for you. It helps if you have a competent medic on the team (I always do  ) so maybe that's warping my perspective on matters.Bilal posted:Reading this page has made me glad that I hesitated to buy this game. It doesn't seem like this game's problems are ever going to get fixed. well the grind is intact, so look forward to that As you've noticed, what's frustrating is that KF2, by and large, is quite good with some inexplicably loving awful decisions that drag it down so, so hard. And it seems like they could fix these quickly - even in Tripwire Time - and don't, because .... um well... Psion fucked around with this message at 19:21 on May 21, 2016 |
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May 21, 2016 19:18
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Luchadork posted:What's the preferred Level 15 perk for Commando, Leadership or Call Out. Leaning towards Leadership. Berserker really comes into at level 10 I think since that's when the health and speed bonuses really start being noticeable, at least to me. especially speed. I love Beserker just because you run around like a bat out of hell knocking heads. That and just learning your weapons. I really enjoy the feel of the crovel once it started one-shotting trash reliably.
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May 22, 2016 00:27
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DatonKallandor posted:The mistake you're making is assuming the Demo has to 100% solo every zed in a vacuum. That's not the realistic situation. You're not going to be shooting at pristine scrake heads, you'll be shooting at scrake heads also getting chewed up by many lower-damage attacks from other classes - and in that situation, a realistic one, extra damage is good even if it doesn't lead to a solo breakpoint. Yeah, sure, but it's the most straight-forward way to demonstrate the impact (or lack thereof) that a boost has. But a more complicated situation doesn't necessarily mean that a damage boost is good. In some instances, maybe it makes a difference. But there are almost certainly also instances where it doesn't. Compared to a skill that will always bring some level of utility, I think the decision is clear. Anyway, let's try and look at this from a different perspective. Instead of shots to kill, let's evaluate what your team would need to bring to the table to make up for you not bringing an extra 10% damage. Rocket to Scrake Head: 10% boost works out to, at best, an extra 75 damage. Vast majority of weapons can effectively stand-in here. This becomes particularly true if RPGs are able to effectively stun Scrakes, since a Commando/Gunslinger/Sharp can easily dash up and fire a handful of rounds to help finish the job. RPG: Best case scenario, an extra 100 damage. I won't retread what I just said, since it's basically the same story. M79: An extra 30 damage, at best. Grab a 9mm, folks. Those values are by no means small, but Demo weapons already wreck every enemy in the game, except for the big guys. Stacking extra damage, consequently, doesn't help much, and I doubt it expands the kill radius of the explosion meaningfully. Those values are small, however, in consideration of a Fleshpound with as much as 8000 health.
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May 22, 2016 00:47
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the math only gets more hilariously hosed up if you want to include your team because it adds a billion potential breakpoints like what are we talking about here? demo + 10% + support with shotgun? + commando with varmint? + medic with smg? + firebug with c&b? there's no way i'm going to waste my life doing an analysis of that crap but it's very, very difficult to establish that worthwhile breakpoints are being hit here, and there's been no wide-spread field reports of people saying they 'feel' more effective when a demo with damage bonuses is around or anything of that nature. or that demos feel more worthwhile, whatever. the point there is that there's no reason to think this is valuable even just looking at it subjectively. but even if there was that, it's still a pointless exercise, if for no other reason than it's insane to put that bar on the class. classes are expressed as being good at x and bad at y. firebugs are good at trash clearing (especially hulk parties), but generally bad at heavy zeds. support does better with heavy zeds but is inefficient at swarms. medics are good at healing the team and adding burst damage, but blow rear end in terms of larger scale killing (because they have no ammo). etc. it's insane to say that demo's job is to weaken things JUUUUUST ENOUGH for others to finish them off. so what's that role exactly, the team's tactical ammo reserve? particularly when you're talking about a low ammo high damage class like demo it only makes sense to talk about breakpoints in terms of personal performance. perhaps scrakes are not the correct zed to use in these analyses (gorefasts might make more sense, or perhaps hulks) but by the time you're saying 'well a demo is good when paired with an x that is psionically linked to him' you're well into the ridiculous.
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May 22, 2016 21:23
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Basically, the structure of a party shouldn't doom it or guarantee success. There should be an overriding reason to pick every class because it does [cool thing] and doesn't have some terrible situational handicap.
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May 22, 2016 21:27
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Someone mentioned it upthread, but it'd be great if Sirens only reduced the effectiveness of explosives, not outright negate them. Like a 25% reduction in damage, and allow Sirens to have additive overlapping fields of damage reduction. Also, whoever said no other class has a hard counter, I'd submit Commando with Scrake/Pound. Coincidentally, Commando also sucks. Guess which classes suck less? Those not hard countered (Gunslinger, Medic, Zerk) are only partially so (Firebug, Support).
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May 22, 2016 21:56
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Honestly, the main reason why Medic, Zerker and Gunslinger are the best classes is due to the move speed bonus. If you know how to navigate the map you get a lot of mileage out of that when most enemies are limited to melee attacks. Probably doesn't hurt that Medics have a clear and vital function in any team and the other two have great weapons to go along with their speed. Support and Firebug would be in the same tier as them if they had a movement bonus as a perk inate, since their weapons also kick rear end.
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May 22, 2016 22:33
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No don't touch support we are perfect where we are with the flashlight and ammo changes. If we get movement speed I bet we'd lose...uh... welding? I changed my mind, Tripwire please replace our worthless welding bonus with movement speed tia 
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May 23, 2016 00:32
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Oh, it is certainly not an argument for changing how Support is. It is a great class now, specially when the group is holding a place, I just feel it fares more poorly than the top three when things go snafu and the group scatters.
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May 23, 2016 00:58
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So, thanks for the super-obvious Zerk advice of "aim for the head and light-attack", that actually makes all the difference in the world. Now that I'm getting the hang of Zerker, though, Jesus loving Christ, this class. I see why it's such a powerful class to play against the big zeds, I'm awful and I'm still mopping poo poo up.
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May 23, 2016 01:57
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Luchadork posted:So, thanks for the super-obvious Zerk advice of "aim for the head and light-attack", that actually makes all the difference in the world. Now that I'm getting the hang of Zerker, though, Jesus loving Christ, this class. I see why it's such a powerful class to play against the big zeds, I'm awful and I'm still mopping poo poo up. Yeah it's awesome when the whole team freaks when a pound shows up and you just sort of stand in front if it and bop it on the head until it dies.
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May 23, 2016 06:40
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Anything planned for E3 this year?
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May 23, 2016 18:53
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dorkasaurus_rex posted:Anything planned for E3 this year? Announcement of Sharpshooter's release date
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May 23, 2016 18:55
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dorkasaurus_rex posted:Anything planned for E3 this year? Planned revision of Hans slated for Q1 2017.
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May 23, 2016 18:59
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Luchadork posted:So, thanks for the super-obvious Zerk advice of "aim for the head and light-attack", that actually makes all the difference in the world. Now that I'm getting the hang of Zerker, though, Jesus loving Christ, this class. I see why it's such a powerful class to play against the big zeds, I'm awful and I'm still mopping poo poo up. Also some zerk weapons have some built in combos that you can exploit for constant swinging action. For example the crovel: if you hold down LMB it will swing 3 times. If during the 3rd swing you click and hold again it will swing an additional 2 times. Clicking again during that 2nd swing gets you 2 more and so on and so on. So with a little practice you can get into a rhythm and develop infinite arm stamina by doing something like Click Swing Swing SwingClick Swing SwingClick Swing SwingClick Swing SwingClick etc... Maybe Lucy Morningstar wants to run the numbers and give us the DPS with and without pausing between crovel swings 
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May 24, 2016 01:39
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http://steamcommunity.com/games/232090/announcements/detail/939377785240818217 More Demo changes, some for the better, but also some for the worse. I will admit that those Commando changes are very arousing, though. Also 
Theta Zero fucked around with this message at 00:55 on May 28, 2016 |
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May 28, 2016 00:49
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quote:Level 20: lol Every single choice is "Figure out which of these is better (no testing necessary) and then always use that forever." Like, "hmm should I spam out useless bullets or do more damage and actually hit with them? HURRRRR"
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May 28, 2016 00:56
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Hey that looks pretty slick. Still a lot left to do but maybe this game isn't fully dead yet!
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May 28, 2016 00:58
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Uh... What does "demo weapons fire faster" mean? They're all single-shot...
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May 28, 2016 01:05
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:lol The only real choice is on level 5, I agree. Also loving LOL at the 3% damage increase during Zed Time. The formatting, language and the overall presentation of these last two notes makes me feel that these are not written down anywhere internally, and that they just scribble them hastily when presenting them to the public. Which doesn't look good or fill me with optimism too much, but hey, better than dead radio silence.
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May 28, 2016 01:09
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LuciferMorningstar posted:Uh... What does "demo weapons fire faster" mean? They're all single-shot... I'm going to guess it's projectile speed? That would fall in line with their idea of Demo being able to headshot with their rockets.
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May 28, 2016 01:11
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Theta Zero posted:I'm going to guess it's projectile speed? That would fall in line with their idea of Demo being able to headshot with their rockets. And they ditched a reload speed increase for that? Jesus Christ, Tripwire...
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May 28, 2016 01:27
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Demo siren resistance must be some dev's pet cause because I can't imagine why TWI insists on having it be a perk (at level 15 no less) instead of a passive
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May 28, 2016 01:28
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A damage boost is something the Commando needed, but does the 25% damage increase push any numbers past breakpoints? Could you now kill any Zeds other then Crawlers and Stalkers with a single bodyshot from the Bullpup? The answer is no, you can't. With all the damage boosts, as in lvl 25 (+25%), the +25% Perk and in full auto mode (which according to the spreadsheet gives you an extra 20% of damage), you still can't kill anything (okay Crawlers) with a single bodyshot from a weapon lower than the SCAR, which starts killing Stalkers in one bodyshot. And you don't wanna go spraying around with the SCAR anyway. You kill the big guys a quarter of the time faster tho. If you go for headshots, you save 3 bullets on avarage when popping the mid-tier Zeds, so that's something I guess, given that you get a 20% recoil reduction. It's a pretty good deal given you're taking a lot of those from afar, lets you save some cash. Granted, paired against EVEN BIGGER mags it's still a no-brainer to pick this one, but compared to the Demo damage boosts, you get a lot more out of it. EDIT: Oh my math is wrong, this boost is not multiplicative or additive, it's always [Base damage * Skill 1 Modifier + Base Damage * Skill 2 Modifier] etc. So instead of doing 92 damage like I thought, the SCAR would do... 85. This doesn't change much tho, you still save 2-3 bullets on each kill. Kikas fucked around with this message at 01:41 on May 28, 2016 |
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May 28, 2016 01:36
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Kikas posted:A damage boost is something the Commando needed, but does the 25% damage increase push any numbers past breakpoints? Could you now kill any Zeds other then Crawlers and Stalkers with a single bodyshot from the Bullpup? I was about to leap into action, but you did the work for me, so thanks.
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May 28, 2016 01:56
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LuciferMorningstar posted:I was about to leap into action, but you did the work for me, so thanks. Well given that my math was a bit off and it's really late over here so I can't be assed to fix it feel free to contribute I gotta write a "Shots to kill" spreadsheet one day.
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May 28, 2016 01:58
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Insert name here posted:Demo siren resistance must be some dev's pet cause because I can't imagine why TWI insists on having it be a perk (at level 15 no less) instead of a passive Maybe it's the same guy who thought that poo poo 9mm sound was worth keeping
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May 28, 2016 03:13
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So is it just me or is this new commando skill tree look like a bunch of shuffling about with no real improvements?
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May 28, 2016 03:17
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Devlan Mud posted:So is it just me or is this new commando skill tree look like a bunch of shuffling about with no real improvements? Pretty much this. It's like they're determined to make it mediocre and near useless. EDIT : The reshuffle feels like it would make the class even worse. Thanks for making people choose between reload speed / having enough rounds to actually kill poo poo. They turned the health increase from a passive, which the commando dearly needed, "Choose between 60 shots that will gets spent on a scrake and still not kill it / basic surivivability." Questioner : Seriously, who do you have in charge of this poo poo? And can you fire them? Skoll fucked around with this message at 04:09 on May 28, 2016 |
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May 28, 2016 03:50
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Theta Zero posted:I'm going to guess it's projectile speed? That would fall in line with their idea of Demo being able to headshot with their rockets. Rockets are quick enough already. My guess is that it is still referring to reload speed, just weirdly phrased. Honestly, I do feel the Demo will fit better as a special/big-zed killer with the new tree, given that with the right picks you will be more than doubling your damage output when hitting a Scrake in the head. Commando is a class I've mostly ignored because I am a mediocre shooter at best, but having a skill with extra damage and recoil reduction seems like a great package, plus all the damage upgrades should increase ammo efficiency by a lot, so I don't think this is clearly a downgrade for the perk and might even make it more viable on Suicidal+. I am also going to guess that the 3% extra damage in the zedtime capstone is supposed to be 30%, because it makes no sense otherwise.
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May 28, 2016 05:40
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ZearothK posted:Rockets are quick enough already. My guess is that it is still referring to reload speed, just weirdly phrased. The whole loving point of explosives is that you don't need to direct hit things with it so I don't know what the idea is supposed to be here.
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May 28, 2016 09:23
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Well, the 150% stumble looks interesting, now the question is 150% of what? That combined with hollowpoint could make a compelling "stunlock a big Zed". Basically Commando abilities now come down to it's stun capability and whether it's reliable enough to utilize, and if more ammo is important due to cumulative effect or if the recoil reduction is the important part. I know you guys wanted some kind of "build to playstyle", but the way you're going about it is a bit hamfisted and better suited to just adding new abilities every five levels because almost always, every 5 levels has only one compelling option due to the math. Abilities don't fundamentally change how you are playing, the best picks just make the focus of the class relative to others do it's job better. You're retreading some very old MMORPG steps here as regards classes. OneThousandMonkeys posted:The whole loving point of explosives is that you don't need to direct hit things with it so I don't know what the idea is supposed to be here. It's like trying to force in the old combos.
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May 28, 2016 10:48
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The stumbling perk is already in the game for Commando. All it does is knock back enemies as if you used a melee bash. Which is a downright awful skill because there's recharge time between when a zed is stumbled and when they can stumble again. So if you're, say, shooting a Scrake or a Fleshpound and they get too close, you can't use your melee bash to give yourself more distance because you used it to stumble them while you're shooting. It's nice for Sirens or Husks, though, but a Medic can already stumble those zeds with their own weapons. There's an equivalent of that perk for Support and Firebug, and they're really nice perks but because those are close range classes and you're effectively doing what you would do anyways, being just stumbling because they're too close. I'm going to assume that they implemented it with the upcoming stumbling system in mind, because if they balanced it around the current stumbling system, it'd be safe to say they have no idea how to play their own game. Theta Zero fucked around with this message at 12:07 on May 28, 2016 |
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May 28, 2016 12:02
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Kikas posted:A damage boost is something the Commando needed, but does the 25% damage increase push any numbers past breakpoints? Could you now kill any Zeds other then Crawlers and Stalkers with a single bodyshot from the Bullpup? replace hollow-points with armour-piercing: big-zed ballistic multiplier is increased by 0.25 (eg 0.5x multiplier becomes 0.75x). now commando doesn't feel so anemic and can actually contribute in an emergency or have enough bullets to kill something when they're the last guy
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May 28, 2016 14:53
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Theta Zero posted:The stumbling perk is already in the game for Commando. All it does is knock back enemies as if you used a melee bash. Actually, each different type of stumbling (affliction, actually) has its own cooldown. So you can bash a Scrake, stun it with heatwave, panic with fire from a Molotov, then the medic can give it a leg stumble (the medic weapons all have bonuses for this), then another guy stuns the poor thing with the crossbow and so on and so forth. Also, the support stumbling skill actually lets you knock down Scrakes with the Combat Shotgun, so it is not redundant when put against weapon bashing. You can find the details on the big excel document.
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May 28, 2016 23:23
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I will admit I've always been "Hard is hard and suicidal steals my lunch money" dead average at this game. But constantly seeing Commando shuffled around into other varieties of Dead Average and "So my friend used a literal Aim Bot and his stopping power is atrocious" hurts. Now his health bonus is a loving perk. Guess I'd better learn to loving aim instead of having enough ammo leeway to pop trash from a mile away with 50% accuracy. I apologize in advance if dusting this game off to finally try Gunslinger gets gunslinger nerfed.
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May 29, 2016 00:08
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The health bonus never really made sense as a Commando perk level up benefit and the perk should just have magazine size and recoil reduction as level up benefits instead.
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May 29, 2016 00:16
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Lemon-Lime posted:The health bonus never really made sense as a Commando perk level up benefit and the perk should just have magazine size and recoil reduction as level up benefits instead. Except that it did make sense because Commando had massive survivability problems in KF 1 and the health bonus passive was a great way of fixing that. Now it's going to go back to being KF 1 level poo poo.
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May 29, 2016 00:29
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If the Commando could match gunslinger DPS or speed (or perhaps even exceed gunslinger DPS since he has a loving assault rifle) the health wouldn't matter. Alas...
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May 29, 2016 00:38
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