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Geniasis posted:"You were right and I was wrong. I'm sorry that I hurt you and from the bottom of my heart I apologize" Donald Trump, humblest man on earth.
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Jun 5, 2016 21:47
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Sharkie posted:Chantilly you're saying things based off some scenario you have in your head but it's nonsense. You can confidently deny you made a mistake. Or, you can arrogantly deny you made a mistake. You can confidently admit a mistake and resolve to do better. Or, I suppose, you can arrogantly resolve to do better, although this kind of strikes most people as odd, as you can also humbly admit a mistake and resolve to do better. It doesn't have to be one or the other. You're picturing some person who doesn't care whether they're right or wrong and their sole goal is to win an argument and while that can happen it's not the case that this is the only reason anyone ever does something like that, nor is it the case that anyone saying "I'll try to do better" actually believes that they'll be perfect and never say something stupid again from that point on. You can apply "confident" or "arrogant" to either of those positions. Or you can apply "humble" to someone admitting a mistake. It's based off the scenario of being called out for saying something racist. Why don't most people apologize? Because they perceive it as a personal attack and try to shut it down just by denying it, which doesn't really work, but we're socialized against saying "yes, I did a bad thing."
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Jun 5, 2016 21:53
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Chantilly Say posted:It's based off the scenario of being called out for saying something racist. Why don't most people apologize? Because they perceive it as a personal attack and try to shut it down just by denying it, which doesn't really work, but we're socialized against saying "yes, I did a bad thing." Do you have resources to back up what you're saying? I recall recently some articles saying how the best way to convince someone out of anti-LGBT bigotry was to sit with them and explain their own lives to the person. Going off of my own life experience that seems accurate--my politics have been greatly formed by the people whom I've gotten to know and speak to, and because they are my friends, their concerns are more real to me, and prompt me to reconsider my opinions.
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Jun 5, 2016 22:02
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Crowsbeak posted:Ah yes ensuring people have served their country is really a bourgeois plot to put wool over the protoletariats eyes and serve Capital.
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Jun 5, 2016 22:05
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fade5 posted:https://twitter.com/FaceTheNation/status/739436549842964481 Have Trump's eyes always been this puffy?
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Jun 5, 2016 22:06
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Chantilly Say posted:It's based off the scenario of being called out for saying something racist. Why don't most people apologize? Because they perceive it as a personal attack and try to shut it down just by denying it, which doesn't really work, but we're socialized against saying "yes, I did a bad thing." But "yes, I did a bad thing" isn't inherently arrogant though. The distinction between arrogance and confidence you've drawn when a person refuses to admit fault isn't inherent either. I think you're using these words in an idiosyncratic way and it's confusing and strikes people as not corresponding to their experiences or their understanding of what these words mean and how they're used.
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Jun 5, 2016 22:08
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Nessus posted:Nah, I just figure it'd be a way to extract labor at a discount. I mean, it depends on the model of what's going on - if it's some kind of vocational program or CCC or whatever, and it's not actively being used to displace other sectors of the economy, sure. But in the current environment? I suspect it would mostly be for poor people and would be corvee labor in all but name. Well, we do have Americorp. There are definitely bad experiences from that, but at the same time, I'm part of Americorp, and I'm going to be doing the next year with a growing community library/community growth org, my friend is helping a resettlement program for refugees, and my other friend is helping an urban agricultural nonprofit. All receiving meager living stipends but still. Maybe your mileage may vary, but from my experience, it's not much of a displacement.
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Jun 5, 2016 22:09
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Internet Kraken posted:Have Trump's eyes always been this puffy? pretty much. At least going off of how political cartoonists have been drawing him for the last year or so.
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Jun 5, 2016 22:09
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Sharkie posted:But "yes, I did a bad thing" isn't inherently arrogant though. The distinction between arrogance and confidence you've drawn when a person refuses to admit fault isn't inherent either. I think you're using these words in an idiosyncratic way and it's confusing and strikes people as not corresponding to their experiences or their understanding of what these words mean and how they're used. Maybe it's perspective. If you're making the attack and someone deals with it assertively, it's probably arrogance from your perspective. You said they did something bad, why aren't they ashamed? If you're the one being assertive you can frame it as confidence from your perspective. Like, in specific situations where people argue in good faith and are willing to accept apologies, the framing you're using holds, but those are private arenas that probably aren't my business to talk about.
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Jun 5, 2016 22:16
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Nessus posted:Nah, I just figure it'd be a way to extract labor at a discount. I mean, it depends on the model of what's going on - if it's some kind of vocational program or CCC or whatever, and it's not actively being used to displace other sectors of the economy, sure. But in the current environment? I suspect it would mostly be for poor people and would be corvee labor in all but name. Yeah I think saying don't do something because it could be corrupted is a very bad argument .
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Jun 5, 2016 22:19
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:Vote by mail is a disaster on the back end of management though. Can you elaborate? Even if it is more complicated to manage, the increased convenience, lowered costs, and increased turnout is worth it. Vote by mail is wildly popular in Oregon, Washington, and Colorado, and there has been no evidence of voter fraud being a serious problem.
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Jun 5, 2016 22:21
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Chantilly Say posted:Maybe it's perspective. If you're making the attack and someone deals with it assertively, it's probably arrogance from your perspective. You said they did something bad, why aren't they ashamed? If you're the one being assertive you can frame it as confidence from your perspective. Most people wouldn't see that as arrogance though. They would see it as an act of humility that the other person could accept that they might be wrong about something. Your definition of arrogance is sort of a complete 180 from the common usage.
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Jun 5, 2016 22:29
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Dexo posted:I disagree that voting should be mandatory. A non-vote or abstaining is a vote or statement of no confidence. If you don't like any of your options you shouldn't have to vote for them. I do however think voting needs to somehow be made more convenient. I just don't have a good solution for that. Since voting isn't mandatory however it is in my best interest for conservatives to not vote. The goal of any election is GotV, and dissuading the other side from voting. I feel like not voting is actually a vote for consent to whatever bullshit they like.
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Jun 5, 2016 23:00
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Xanderkish posted:Do you have resources to back up what you're saying? I recall recently some articles saying how the best way to convince someone out of anti-LGBT bigotry was to sit with them and explain their own lives to the person. Going off of my own life experience that seems accurate--my politics have been greatly formed by the people whom I've gotten to know and speak to, and because they are my friends, their concerns are more real to me, and prompt me to reconsider my opinions. I feel like we're talking about different situations. Between friends you can be honest and open and discuss things in good faith with your guard down, but you can't treat that as the norm.
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Jun 5, 2016 23:02
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Antti posted:This is such perfectly timed and executed self-immolation that I'm really tempted by the Hillary plant conspiracy theory. It's hard to get more blatant than "Mexico sends us their rapists and other criminals/undesirables" or wanting actual Nazi-era registration and identification for Muslims. Trump hasn't been ramping up, he's been full on bullhorn racist from the start.
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Jun 5, 2016 23:03
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OtherworldlyInvader posted:Can you elaborate? Even if it is more complicated to manage, the increased convenience, lowered costs, and increased turnout is worth it. Vote by mail is wildly popular in Oregon, Washington, and Colorado, and there has been no evidence of voter fraud being a serious problem. Yea, my biggest complaint about vote by mail, living in Washington, is that if I want to mail it I have to pay for postage, but there are dropboxes everywhere so it isn't exactly a huge issue.
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Jun 5, 2016 23:05
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what if we get mandatory voting, then one guy runs on the platform of repealing mandatory voting and gets all the votes makes u think
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Jun 5, 2016 23:10
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VikingofRock posted:For people who think voting should be mandatory: what do you think the penalty should be for not voting? Hit in the rear end with a broom from a moving car when they're walking on the sidewalk. Don't remember the movie that happened in. Also, "undecided" voters who brag about being undecided should have their car's rear axle tied to some solid structure as in American Graffiti. If they don't have cars, someone should put a used urinal cake in their pocket.
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Jun 5, 2016 23:21
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Chantilly Say posted:I feel like we're talking about different situations. Between friends you can be honest and open and discuss things in good faith with your guard down, but you can't treat that as the norm. I think your mental image of honest discourse is horribly contaminated by the internet.
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Jun 5, 2016 23:35
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Crowsbeak posted:Yeah I think saying don't do something because it could be corrupted is a very bad argument . I have no beef with Americorps. I do think some kind of "mandatory service" thing would need more details for me to support it, due to the risk of it becoming "we draft poor people to fix roads and barely pay them."
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Jun 5, 2016 23:45
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Dead Reckoning posted:Yeah, it's a little crazy to get upset that people vigorously defend themselves from accusations of racism when we have people ITT saying that they don't have to respond to any of MattD1zzl3's arguments, because he said something construed as racist last year. This is a good post. So much online discussion isn't so much an attempt to exchange ideas and truly convince someone your idea is right, but to play "gotcha!" with people. I mean poo poo, a few days ago I posted my idea about having contractors run everything in the government, people said "that's a terrible idea" and explained, I changed my mind and people were acting like Martians just showed up. It baffles the poo poo out of me that people treat online discussion like this. "Winning" an online discussion doesn't do jack poo poo for anyone.
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Jun 5, 2016 23:47
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axeil posted:This is a good post. So much online discussion isn't so much an attempt to exchange ideas and truly convince someone your idea is right, but to play "gotcha!" with people. It's not just an internet phenomenon really. The Domocratic party in particular is making some toxic use of ID politics and have been since maybe 2003-5. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeiPVPEtino&t=128s Interesting article on the subject Kokoro Wish fucked around with this message at 00:05 on Jun 6, 2016 |
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Jun 6, 2016 00:01
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Crossposting from the GOP thread, because this is great: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gra34FVFGaE
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Jun 6, 2016 00:09
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Nessus posted:I dunno, that's the reason behind why we mysteriously can't have all sorts of basic social welfare programs. "Might get corrupted, might get used to bad ends."
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Jun 6, 2016 00:17
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Crowsbeak posted:Yeah and when did I argue against a Government option for healthcare, welfare, or a free college? Also I would want it to be universal and what is wrong with fixing our infrastructure? If you fix people's infrastructure then what are they gonna learn? They're just gonna take and take and take. Give them roads and they're just going to use them to drive to their drug dealer. Electricity and they'll just use the air conditioning to laze around out of the blistering heat of global warming. Clean water to drink and they'll no longer thirst for improvement. This country built it's capital on a filthy swamp without air conditioning, sewers, or safe drinking water. If it was good enough for the Founders, then by GOD, it should be good enough for the lazy roustabouts of today.
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Jun 6, 2016 00:37
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Gyges posted:If you fix people's infrastructure then what are they gonna learn? They're just gonna take and take and take. Give them roads and they're just going to use them to drive to their drug dealer. Electricity and they'll just use the air conditioning to laze around out of the blistering heat of global warming. Clean water to drink and they'll no longer thirst for improvement. This country built it's capital on a filthy swamp without air conditioning, sewers, or safe drinking water. If it was good enough for the Founders, then by GOD, it should be good enough for the lazy roustabouts of today. I was asking for why he felt the left should oppose it. Not why the National Review would.
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Jun 6, 2016 00:54
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Governor Cuomo has opened a new battle in the ongoing battle for America's pro-Israel policy. And the next Senate Majority Leader is on board.
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Jun 6, 2016 01:02
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Full Battle Rattle posted:what if we get mandatory voting, then one guy runs on the platform of repealing mandatory voting and gets all the votes This reminds me of a short story I read back in college. I can't remember the name of the author, but he was some Edwardian intellectual type. Anyway, the story was about how the king of England ended the women's suffrage movement by making women's suffrage both mandatory and holding elections frequently and at random and inconvenient times.
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Jun 6, 2016 01:10
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https://twitter.com/piersmorgan/status/739375193647353857 Shut the gently caress up Piers Morgan
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Jun 6, 2016 01:24
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lol this thread reads like a shrieking tumblr (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 6, 2016 01:27
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lite_sleepr posted:lol this thread reads like a shrieking tumblr That's just your internal monologue
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Jun 6, 2016 01:30
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lite_sleepr posted:lol this thread reads like a shrieking tumblr Oh so you like Piers.
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Jun 6, 2016 01:32
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Trabisnikof posted:That's just your internal monologue Crowsbeak posted:Oh so you like Piers.  the last 3 pages saw the word racis(t)(m) used 65 timesThis is how I imagine people post in this thread: 
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Jun 6, 2016 01:36
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:Hillary has an outside shot at clinching tonight. Unlike this thread that has a chance of clinching every few minutes.
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Jun 6, 2016 01:48
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If you see people talking about racism and your first thought is "lol Tumblr", you should probably get off the internet for a while, you're in too deep
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Jun 6, 2016 01:52
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https://twitter.com/davidafrench/status/739618528333008897 Shocked!
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Jun 6, 2016 01:52
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So that was, what? One week?
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Jun 6, 2016 01:53
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Racism, the noted concept invented by tumblr in 2015
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Jun 6, 2016 01:55
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Xanderkish posted:So that was, what? One week? I have a feeling French found out about his hat being tossed into the ring at the exact same moment everyone else did. Bill Kristol is honestly that stupid.
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Jun 6, 2016 02:06
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ComradeCosmobot posted:Governor Cuomo has opened a new battle in the ongoing battle for America's pro-Israel policy. And the next Senate Majority Leader is on board. Majority Leader Chuck Schumer almost makes the idea of the Republicans retaining control of the Senate tolerable.
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Jun 6, 2016 02:14
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