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I think people confuse "effective" with "fun". As someone who used to be involved in some antifa stuff, in my experience the fa and the antifa are drawing from the same well, with antiantifa and a3fa layered on top of the poo poo sandwich with lots of bleed over and intermixing between the layers. Giving poor disenfranchised (mostly white) youth a vehicle for their anger that involves a lot of fist fights and some occasional stabbings/bludgeonings just isn't that deep. Living in the US, I find it takes on a more serious tone, since one of those fist fights could escalate to a shooting/murder and one of those stabbings could bankrupt your family with medical bills. But a point where the fa and antifa will agree is that that is just capitalism loving poo poo up.
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Jun 27, 2016 23:33
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Craptacular! posted:My only point is we can't have nice things in this country. We can't have a country without Nazi demonstrations because too many idiots think outlawing hate speech would lead us on the road to becoming China instead of Canada or Sweden. In point of fact, we have weathered Nazi demonstrations, and Ku Klux Klan demonstrations, and Father Coughlin radio broadcasts which weren't stopped until we actually went to war with Nazi Germany, and Roger Ailes. We've let a lot of remarkably vile people hold rallies over the years, and a remarkably vile set of demagogues and bigots writing newspaper columns and giving media broadcasts, and still we haven't gone full-on fascist. In the slow battle of ideas, the bigots have not been winning. One reason we are seeing so much white rage is that some of the long-building civil rights struggles have been winning battles, although not yet wars. When people talk about "political correctness", what they mean is that it isn't as broadly socially acceptable to be overtly racist, sexist, and in general anti-minority as it was not just fifty years ago, but ten years ago. Letting the bad people speak and speaking against their ideas has been working okay so far.
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Jun 27, 2016 23:45
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I think we should keep the first amendment. Thanks for your time, everyone!
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Jun 27, 2016 23:50
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I do too! Non lethal violence is protected speech.
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Jun 27, 2016 23:58
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Shbobdb posted:I do too! Non lethal violence is protected speech. Checks out. Literally everything anyone has ever done is actually Speech. Makes you wonder why they still keep building jails and having laws. Makes you think. 
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Jun 28, 2016 00:24
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Sac TV news is not surpisingly blaming the pasty liberal bike messenger invaders from san francisco/oakland for 90% of the trouble against the kind, gentle family oriented "white supremacists"
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Jun 28, 2016 02:10
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Shbobdb posted:I think people confuse "effective" with "fun". As someone who used to be involved in some antifa stuff, in my experience the fa and the antifa are drawing from the same well, with antiantifa and a3fa layered on top of the poo poo sandwich with lots of bleed over and intermixing between the layers. Giving poor disenfranchised (mostly white) youth a vehicle for their anger that involves a lot of fist fights and some occasional stabbings/bludgeonings just isn't that deep. This has always pretty much been my impression. The antifa (tuxedo is right, such a dumb name) aggressors would be first in line to sign up for a literal brown shirt if it meant they could commit sanctioned violence in the name of a strong political organization. They just want to fight and be praised for it, and there's always a ton of praise on these forums when a street brawl kicks off every few years. These chinless racist hicks have no tangible power, and pretending that you are the only guard against their take over of the federal government is naive and deluded. This isn't wolfenstein; nazi's and kkk have legally marched and demonstrated for decades, and there is no sign that they are ever coming closer to seizing actual control and implementing their hosed up ideology. As long as their speech is protected under the 1st, there is absolutely no rationale for preemptive violent suppression by vigilantes. A percentage of these nazis will eventually grow out of their ideology, many of them having been born into it and brainwashed by family similar to the WBC. Braining them prevents that enlightenment from ever occurring. Forcing them underground just encourages them to engage in terrorist acts. Committing felony assault on nazi's exercising their legal right to practice political speech is really dumb, but I hope that anyone who does so enjoys a few years in prison under the thumb of actual no poo poo fascists with real power.
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Jun 28, 2016 02:34
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I see it differently, more as a function of the American tendency to take everything to extremes. I don't think there is anything wrong with aggressive violence between groups of consenting adults. As long as it's mostly broken bones and minor stabbings, it's just not that deep.
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Jun 28, 2016 03:00
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Boxing, mma, and other contact sport exists for that reason. Street violence shouldn't be encouraged, since, as you stated earlier, there is no way to control the degree of violence or whether the parties involved are consenting. I highly doubt antifa/fa would be interested in an underground fight club melee, either, since I believe their underlying motivation is to receive public praise for their violence. It may have been different back in the punk era, but today's social media provides new motivation. And I certainly don't think this is a uniquely American or western trait, you can see violence and political action taken to the extremes for very little reason all over the globe.
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Jun 28, 2016 03:36
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Meh. I saw "not getting out of hand" routinely while I lived in Germany and knew plenty of people from France, England and some Czechs and Poles who experienced the same. Plus, private boxing classes and poo poo are incredibly expensive. That's infuriatingly tone deaf along the lines of "Who needs buses when cars exist?"
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Jun 28, 2016 03:45
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Maybe instead of all learning how to fight and solving our problems with sanctioned street fighting, we can all learn how to have open and educated dialogue about the issues. I mean, if we're going to learn a skill it might as well be that. Not as fun as street brawling classes, but more useful.
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Jun 28, 2016 03:51
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Shbobdb posted:I see it differently, more as a function of the American tendency to take everything to extremes. I don't think there is anything wrong with aggressive violence between groups of consenting adults. As long as it's mostly broken bones and minor stabbings, it's just not that deep. Yeah except no one was gathering consent forms in that park. So bringing up fight club is a little unrelated to saying violence should be protected speech.
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Jun 28, 2016 04:01
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Tuxedo Gin posted:Maybe instead of all learning how to fight and solving our problems with sanctioned street fighting, we can all learn how to have open and educated dialogue about the issues. I mean, if we're going to learn a skill it might as well be that. Not as fun as street brawling classes, but more useful. jesus christ you fuckers never learn do you
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Jun 28, 2016 04:01
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Trabisnikof posted:Yeah except no one was gathering consent forms in that park. So bringing up fight club is a little unrelated to saying violence should be protected speech. Fights between Nazis and Antifa are assumed consent. If you play a game of pickup football, you shouldn't go crying to cops or lawyers when someone plows into you and knocks you out.
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Jun 28, 2016 04:58
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Airbnb has sued San Francisco, claiming that forcing it to include rental registration information on every listing violates federal law banning on content-based restrictions on online speech.
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Jun 28, 2016 05:12
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ComradeCosmobot posted:Airbnb has sued San Francisco, claiming that forcing it to include rental registration information on every listing violates federal law banning on content-based restrictions on online speech. While i'd like the poo poo pushed in on "sharing econ" type companies, "The housing crisis" was not started with AirBNB. This is a bogeyman for politicians to let the voters they're solving the housing problem. Which isn't the problem: lovely nimbyism is and restrictive building laws are
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Jun 28, 2016 05:19
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I don't see anything wrong with this law, though, and there's no reason why a city needs to allow short stay rentals. Tokyo passed a law requiring all short stay rentals to be licensed as hotels with the proper facilities and safety features as required of hotel rooms. People still operate Airbnb's there illegally, and have to assume the risk of doing so.
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Jun 28, 2016 06:00
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Tuxedo Gin posted:People still operate Airbnb's there illegally, and have to assume the risk of doing so. This is pretty much the entire purpose of Airbnb's legal department: to make sure that as much risk as possible is transferred to the customer and the contractor.
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Jun 28, 2016 06:09
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Shbobdb posted:Fights between Nazis and Antifa are assumed consent. If you play a game of pickup football, you shouldn't go crying to cops or lawyers when someone plows into you and knocks you out. What about media? Or what about someone who just wanted to peacefully protest nazis? The idea that by attending a protest you're consenting to non-lethal violence is anathema to free speech in America.
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Jun 28, 2016 06:11
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Oakland just held the first of two votes needed to kill plans for a coal-shipping terminal.
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Jun 28, 2016 06:14
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The only good Nazi is a dead Nazi.  EDIT: We fought a whole World War regarding this. GenderSelectScreen fucked around with this message at 16:05 on Jun 28, 2016 |
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Jun 28, 2016 15:50
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Hitlers Gay Secret posted:The only good Nazi is a dead Nazi. You're acting as if the choice is between "letting Nazis take over the state and commit atrocities" and "citizens killing individual Nazis". There's a big fat excluded middle there.
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Jun 28, 2016 16:12
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Trabisnikof posted:What about media? Or what about someone who just wanted to peacefully protest nazis? The antifa picking a fight with the media are dumb and the "peaceful protesters" are at the wrong event. Are you being purposefully obtuse or have you just never been anywhere near an anti Nazi protest? It's like I'm talking to an alien in a bad fish out of water sci fi movie.
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Jun 28, 2016 16:13
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It's almost as if political extremists on both sides are stupid and out of touch with reality....
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Jun 28, 2016 16:14
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Shbobdb posted:The antifa picking a fight with the media are dumb and the "peaceful protesters" are at the wrong event. Yes I've actually seen normal peaceful counter protesting of white suprematist. No one got stabbed or attacked. Anyone who stabbed anyone should be treated by the legal system as harshly as possible. This idea that we should accept violence at political rallies is literally anti-democratic and undoes all the work of free speech protesters. Why do you think the political ideology with the most knife weilding thugs should be able to stab any other ideology into silence?
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Jun 28, 2016 19:48
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Neo-Nazi hoe-downs were common back in the 90's, but I don't recall them being violent back then even with Anti-Racist Action people showing up. I cannot recall even hearing about Neo-Nazis in California (after the 90's) until that clash in Anaheim. I thought ignoring them was working well.
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Jun 28, 2016 21:10
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I don't know if ignoring nazis is such a great strategy anymore (and wasn't really ever a great strategy to begin with). I used to think that fascism wouldn't get that strong of a foothold in the US for various reasons, but this election cycle has started to creep me out. I've seen a lot of nationalist terminology and proto-fascist ideology slipping into more of the speech I come across from the more conservative areas of society (my cousins seriously using a "nationalist vs globalist" dichotomy in one case). I feel like there's been a drop in the resistance to being outwardly racist thanks to the construction of language people think protects them from the accusation, aka "Im not some PC liberal." I don't think you'll see a strong nazi party in the US ever (because in most peoples minds, Nazi === EVIL, and I am Good), but I definitely fear a Norsefire. Globally fascism has had a somewhat strong resurgence as well.
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Jun 28, 2016 21:21
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Keyser S0ze posted:Sac TV news is not surpisingly blaming the pasty liberal bike messenger invaders from san francisco/oakland for 90% of the trouble against the kind, gentle family oriented "white supremacists" those hipsters clearly stabbed themselves and are trying to blame wholesome all-white families for it!
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Jun 28, 2016 21:29
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Trabisnikof posted:Yes I've actually seen normal peaceful counter protesting of white suprematist. No one got stabbed or attacked. There are tons of those, so what? How is that relevant to the conversation?
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Jun 28, 2016 23:16
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Your argument seems to be that, because "everyone knows" nazis are violent, and "everyone knows" antifa is a violent group, that A) this means it's totally OK to condone violent scraps in our streets under the aegis of free speech or something, and B) it's also totally reasonable to expect that anyone who shows up to a protest where a "known violent" group is hanging out is implicitly consenting to be attacked. There's also some kind of idiotic sideshow about knifings being nonlethal combat, which is really stupid. That nobody died in that fight is good, but hardly the default expectation when people pull out lethal weapons. I don't give a gently caress who is protesting, I don't want people engaging in violence in public places. Or in private places, really, but there are highly regulated sports that take pains to use lots of safety equipment that I guess people are generally OK with, ranging from MMA and boxing through to ice hockey and football. None of which, I'll point out again, involve stabbings. But violent action and bloodsports appeal to our worst motives, and contrary to some people's beliefs, they don't "relieve stress" or "let them work it out" or whatever, violence only begets more violence. But leaving that whole thing aside, the point still stands that what today's nazis really want everyone to agree with is the idea that white people are under attack. Attacking them validates their position. It's literally playing into their hands. It's the stupidest possible approach. You can argue that peaceful counterprotest or just ignoring them "doesn't work" all you want, but at least those types of action or inaction don't actually help their cause by showing possible recruits and allies everywhere that hey, yeah, looks like maybe white people are under attack!
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Jun 28, 2016 23:32
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Tuxedo Gin posted:It's almost as if political extremists on both sides are stupid and out of touch with reality.... The truth must be in the middle I guess...
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Jun 29, 2016 00:14
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Ron Jeremy posted:The truth must be in the middle I guess... Anything other than outright howling for a blood zigguraut makes you an inhuman monster. I just don't understand why people don't want to see rivers run with blood. They're BAD GUYS! But, I guess if you don't want a dehumanizing blood zigguraut you might as well just become a fascist yourself, according to a lot of people. Seems like there's no way not to be a fascist these days. 
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Jun 29, 2016 00:18
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Leperflesh posted:Your argument seems to be that, because "everyone knows" nazis are violent, and "everyone knows" antifa is a violent group, that A) this means it's totally OK to condone violent scraps in our streets under the aegis of free speech or something, and B) it's also totally reasonable to expect that anyone who shows up to a protest where a "known violent" group is hanging out is implicitly consenting to be attacked. I think it's absolutely wonderful that there seems to be such a large amount of people that are willing to contact each other and mobilize to try and counter-demonstrate against anyone that would try to rally under a banner of hate. But really showing up and instantly attacking these groups of people from the outset is going to get them more sympathizers than they ever would have gotten had you not attacked them. It may feel fun, it may look good among your peers to be the baddest fash-smasher of them all, but that is pretty self serving if you just stop and think of some of the possible repercussions from showing up in broad daylight, in public, in parks - to just straight up start attacking people. It's not acceptable to do by society and law. If you feel 'gently caress the law and gently caress fascists, I'll do what I want' - then you yourself are probably becoming just as much of a nuisance or threat in the eyes of the law and John Q. Public as well.
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Jun 29, 2016 00:30
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It's not even theorizing. You can see it right there in the media coverage. Nazis seeming sympathetic because people physically assaulted them, even though they fought back and inflicted more casualties.
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Jun 29, 2016 01:10
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Arsenic Lupin posted:Where by "idiots" you mean the people who wrote the Bill of Rights and the Supreme Court Justices who interpreted said bill. American exceptionalism is a strong thing, though. It leads to things like a country where people can march for genocide in a country with a shitload of guns and, like that dog in the meme, everybody thinks that's okay. quote:In the slow battle of ideas, the bigots have not been winning. Thy haven't won, but a lot of people have been hurt or killed in the struggles. That could have been avoided if we did things the way other countries have successfully prosecuted hate speech instead of being hardheaded about doing it our way. Craptacular! fucked around with this message at 01:44 on Jun 29, 2016 |
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Jun 29, 2016 01:41
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Craptacular! posted:
Europe isn't exactly the best example of that right now.
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Jun 29, 2016 02:01
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Nah. My argument is more that violence is character building and cathartic under certain conditions and Nazi rallies fulfill those conditions. It is also that the human being is a remarkably resilient organism so provided that people (or influence systems) aren't loving crazy, bludgeoning and stabbings aren't that serious for young folks looking to hurt but not maim/kill (which falls under the "not crazy" part). Every Nazi and Evey Antifa I knew understood the rules. We'll, except for the crazy fuckers. But there is already a lot of self segregation. If you don't want to get hit, you can chill by the sidelines. It's a mix of mostly uninvolved girlfriends coupled with people too old, injured or chickenshit to fight. Then you've got people who want to front being tough but aren't (this is where I spent pretty much all of my time) throwing punches and generally being antisocial -- maybe throwing bottles at each other. Then you've got the inner ring with people using bats and knives and other hardcore poo poo. Like, that's the point. Violence is catharsis, better to provide a vehicle for it. Otherwise fuckers like the piece of poo poo that started the Sac rally will go back to forming beat squads that go around terrorizing unsuspecting minorities (and the antifa people will go back to tagging private property and smashing corporate windows). In a civilized society, it is a win win for everyone.
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Jun 29, 2016 02:39
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Shbobdb posted:It is also that the human being is a remarkably resilient organism so provided that people (or influence systems) aren't loving crazy, bludgeoning and stabbings aren't that serious for young folks looking to hurt but not maim/kill (which falls under the "not crazy" part). Go explain that in the Health Stories thread. Ask the ER veterans what they think about that.
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Jun 29, 2016 02:42
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Shbobdb posted:Nah. My argument is more that violence is character building and cathartic under certain conditions and Nazi rallies fulfill those conditions. You should get a hobby. I like to ride bikes. Seriously what the gently caress is wrong with you? Go back and watch the vid of the recent fight with the dude taking a 2x4 to the head. There's a real chance you never walk away from a blow like that. Not to mention the half dozen people who got stabbed. You're a piece of poo poo.
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Jun 29, 2016 02:46
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Street fighting is a bad thing but it's hard to get too upset when Nazis are involved. Anyway is there anything else to talk about? This is getting tedious. I guess Brown signed a new budget?
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Jun 29, 2016 02:52
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