|
There is only one being who I accept as Thor, and he was killed off in Secret Wars. Rest in peace, Bhor. You were too good for this universe.
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2016 19:47
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 20:22 |
|
|
Nobby posted:It was kinda weird that Titania would be with a guy who says poo poo like that, though. Have some self respect, Titania. Lurdiak posted:And another thing, why does Harley Quinn hang around with Joker? Creel is absolutely no Joker. It's like I was saying, Marvel supervillains are mostly just a bunch of dopes who don't know any better. Creel once tried to get Mary to let go of her obsession with She-Hulk because it was ruining her life. He does genuinely care about her and hates seeing how constantly failing tears her up inside. If she just picked on somebody a bit smaller, like Spiderman...oh. Maybe Daredevil? Anyway, from what I read, Titania broke into some SHIELD secret base in order to rescue her hubby, this coming on the heels of the "MRA Absorbing Man" Incident. So it's like, I dunno. Maybe he was having a bad day (of bad writing). And I suppose calling her Fem Thor is unfair. But I mean, does Jane Thor work? I mean, people call Spidey "Miles Spidey" right and I certainly can't think of X-23 as Wolverine, whatever her current alias. I guess I can call her X-verine or something....
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2016 19:55
|
|
|
Toxxupation posted:It's not subtext. It's literally text, in her first issue, that she's Thor, not lady Thor, not new Thor, not femThor, but loving Thor. I should probably dig up the panels where Aaron (fairly heavy-handedly actually) goes "No, stop using dumb descriptors, she's loving Thor, the guy with the metal arm who's not wielding Mjolnir is Not Thor, his name is Odinson" which is a stylistic choice virtually all books that use the Odinson since have subscribed to and that Aaron most certainly does within the bounds of Mighty Thor. Yes I get that she is loving Thor in the comics. I was referring to people describing the comics in a way that would make it clear to someone who might not be up to date on what happened recently in the comics.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2016 19:55
|
|
|
HIJK posted:I'm fine with sexists getting told to gently caress off, I just want it done well and in a un-terrible fashion. Using internet memes for dialogue (usually as a way to be "hip") is pretty lame, and I'm not interested in seeing internet drama recreated in brightly colored funnybooks, mostly because internet drama consists of several different sides jerking each other off. That's tiresome. I don't know how organic it can be, or if anything like that can really be introduced without setting off alarm bells for being forced. An rear end in a top hat was an rear end in a top hat for a few pages and got punched out, because he is a super villain. "Ethics in Hammer Wielding" was a hilarious meta joke and might as well have been Loki outright breaking the fourth wall.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2016 19:58
|
|
|
I call her Thor and call the former Thor Odinson. It's the most sensible outcome to me. (Though the "Femthor" thing is common and part of what I meant earlier about 'the default') If you really need to clarify which Thor you mean "Jane Foster Thor" works just as well.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2016 20:00
|
|
|
The difference is the intentions of the works and the authors behind them. Laura Linney/X-23 is carrying a legacy position which is the main reason she's Wolverine in the first place over some sort of authorial mandate that she's truly no for reals the next Wolverine. She doesn't really [i]want[/i to be Wolverine, she's Wolverine largely out of respect to Logan over some sort of desire to be "the next guy".] Bendis is actually doing a big arc with Miles where he wants to be known as just Spider-Man and he kinda hates that he's become the banner for black superheroes (in direct contrast to Sam Wilson who's very self-consciously and specifically an icon for black people), with the frustrations of feeling marginalized for being known as "black Spider-Man". The frustration is that he's a huge fan of Peter Parker's Spider-Man, so the naming is difficult when distinguishing. I think the easiest distinction is calling Miles "Ultimate Spider-Man" since that's reflective of his origins over a specific commentary on the character, but appearances of Miles when he's by himself he's referred to as just "Spider-Man" by teammates, co-workers, et cetera. Aaron's gone out of his way to state beyond a shadow of a doubt that Thor is in fact Thor and the guy who used to be Thor is the Odinson and she's incredibly self-assured and confident in who she is (in contrast to Miles and Sam who struggle with their legacies and Laura who just doesn't really loving care).
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2016 20:05
|
|
|
I agree with the earlier post that started that as long as the originals are around, the new characters can't really be their own people and shine on their own. Why is it apparently so hard to make good new successful characters? It can't be impossible. Also I agree that implying that a close relationship is gay is kind of diminishing human relationships, or at least enforcing heteronormative stereotypes.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2016 20:09
|
|
|
CAPT. Rainbowbeard posted:I agree with the earlier post that started that as long as the originals are around, the new characters can't really be their own people and shine on their own. And yet DC has been doing this for over a half-century at this point. Nobody on earth is saying "Flash? Oh you mean Jay Garrick, right?"
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2016 20:11
|
|
|
CAPT. Rainbowbeard posted:Why is it apparently so hard to make good new successful characters? It can't be impossible. It's not impossible but: A) These existing characters have been around for longer than most of us have been alive. These characters didn't spring fully formed from the head of zeus as popular but instead are popular through inertia and long lives. B) When these comics were created comics were in a very different social and economic place than modern comics which is part of what helped push them towards being popular. C) Creators are more reluctant to give their best ideas to the Big Two when they can create an independent comic and retain full control over it, but with a few exceptions independent comics have even less brainspace in the general public than the Big Two and, (again, with a few exceptions), don't have the advantage of the WB/Disney marketing machine to push them.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2016 20:15
|
|
|
Toxxupation posted:And yet DC has been doing this for over a half-century at this point. Nobody on earth is saying "Flash? Oh you mean Jay Garrick, right?" Maybe all the reboots have helped. But I can see what you're saying. Nobody remembers Rachel as Phoenix, even though she was the superior Phoenix. Rachel and Hope both get labeled by fans and Marvel staff alike as "the Poor Man's Jean Grey." This is ridiculous but it's a sad truth. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 20:18 on Jun 30, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2016 20:15
|
|
|
Toxxupation posted:And yet DC has been doing this for over a half-century at this point. Nobody on earth is saying "Flash? Oh you mean Jay Garrick, right?" Because the "originals" in DC were almost always severely sidelined or removed entirely for this exact reason. Jay Garrick and Alan Scott both were frequently slid off to the side for exactly this reason and no other legacy hero really was around much until they started loving it up.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2016 20:16
|
|
|
Toxxupation posted:And yet DC has been doing this for over a half-century at this point. Nobody on earth is saying "Flash? Oh you mean Jay Garrick, right?" No, they clearly mean Barry Allen, the character older than Spider-Man.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2016 20:17
|
|
|
HIJK posted:That's certainly why I do it. It's an easy shorthand. To be honest it's pretty heavy handed and clearly meant as the writer's rebuttal to the grumpy MRA garbage that gets spewed on the internet. I didn't mind it so much because it's a panel here and there...I guess it makes for good troll bait on Tumblr or whatever the anti-feminist crowd is posting on these days. It definitely didn't detract from the overall experience of the comic though.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2016 20:22
|
|
|
WickedHate posted:I don't know how organic it can be, or if anything like that can really be introduced without setting off alarm bells for being forced. An rear end in a top hat was an rear end in a top hat for a few pages and got punched out, because he is a super villain. Titania should not have been all "you go girl" with Thor since the character's entire beef with She-Hulk is that she hates not being the strongest woman alive. It is her only defining character trait.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2016 20:26
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:It's not impossible but: C seems very, very likely. Good point. Gaz-L posted:No, they clearly mean Barry Allen, the character older than Spider-Man. Barry... Allen? You mean Wally West, best friend of Kyle Rainer, the Green Lantern? You know what comic I liked, was Ghost Rider. But then this Johnny Blaze guy (?) showed up and stole being the Ghost Rider from Danny Ketch.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2016 20:26
|
|
|
SirDan3k posted:Titania should not have been all "you go girl" with Thor since the character's entire beef with She-Hulk is that she hates not being the strongest woman alive. It is her only defining character trait. tbh I was going to say something like "but the bit with Titania was unnecessary and put it over the top" but forgot as I was typing the post.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2016 20:31
|
|
|
Toxxupation posted:Bendis is actually doing a big arc with Miles where he wants to be known as just Spider-Man and he kinda hates that he's become the banner for black superheroes (in direct contrast to Sam Wilson who's very self-consciously and specifically an icon for black people), with the frustrations of feeling marginalized for being known as "black Spider-Man". The frustration is that he's a huge fan of Peter Parker's Spider-Man, so the naming is difficult when distinguishing. How does this work out in the story itself? I get the real-life, comic-selling reasons of using existing names, but at least with Wolverine and Thor it can be justified in universe. But with Miles, it 's sort of like, if you don't want to be known as "black Spider-Man", maybe don't steal someone else's code name.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2016 20:37
|
|
|
Luchacabra posted:How does this work out in the story itself? He got bit by a spider and got powers. What else would he be called?
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2016 20:38
|
|
|
Luchacabra posted:How does this work out in the story itself? To be fair when Miles became Spider-Man it was to honor the then-dead Peter Parker. bobkatt013 posted:He got bit by a spider and got powers. What else would he be called? Well, there's Silk, Scarlet Spider, Arana...
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2016 20:39
|
|
|
CAPT. Rainbowbeard posted:C seems very, very likely. Good point. I think it was probably more true in the 90s than it is today. We saw what happened when all the good writers took their ball and went to play in the indies and very few of them made it. A guy like Bendis probably set the best example for today's writers, or perhaps Morrison in that you come in, and if your work is good enough it inspires the work that comes after it and if you can write stuff that sells well and don't piss off the bosses you can have a good job and still do indy stuff that you're more passionate about. That doesn't mean that you need to save your best ideas for the indy work or not try and create original characters for mainstream stuff. The biggest issue to me is simply that they don't replace their old stars with new ones. It's like the WWE problem with John Cena we've had for years and years. Instead of trying to push someone past his level and hold them there, we've had them build up people who even at the top were second to him even though his star was fading they missed the boat on being able to use him to get a star above him. The Example in Marvel is Miles as Spider-Man. Is Miles ever going to full on take the mantle of Spider-Man from Peter Parker to the level that we see him appearing in movies? Answer to that was in Civil War, and it's no. They're going to keep drawing from the well that fans know rather than try and draw from one they don't and risk not hitting black gold(black gold is oil, not a remark about Black viewers) right away. Making the new Spider-Man Miles instead of Peter would have been a really fresh way to bring the character into the MCU, not that he had a bad showing, but it should have sent the message that they weren't going to keep banking on legacy characters for the sake of them being the biggest draws and were willing to let younger, fresher, faces hold the mantle. I imagine the suits like J.Jonah Jameson yelling at the creative team "I want the next hero, bigger than Iron Man, on my desk in the morning and if he's not got 3 comics with his name and a Disney XD show in the works by 5pm he goes in the vault." PaybackJack fucked around with this message at 20:43 on Jun 30, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2016 20:41
|
|
|
Luchacabra posted:How does this work out in the story itself? It depends on what canon you're going with, but 1610 Miles had a whole arc about how he got comfortable with the title after initial concerns. If you're going with 616 canon he literally met Spider-Man (Peter Parker) who said that he was totally fine with the name and, in fact, approved of it and then complimented his sweet outfit.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2016 20:41
|
|
|
PaybackJack posted:To be honest it's pretty heavy handed and clearly meant as the writer's rebuttal to the grumpy MRA garbage that gets spewed on the internet. I didn't mind it so much because it's a panel here and there...I guess it makes for good troll bait on Tumblr or whatever the anti-feminist crowd is posting on these days. It definitely didn't detract from the overall experience of the comic though. When I read this stuff in the books I think "ugh, some people are awful" instead of "the writer is making a point". I can't recall an example so egregious that I found it unrealistic. What's funny is I've got no difficulty calling Jane Foster "Thor" but it seems weird to call Laura Kinney "Wolverine". I guess because I've only been reading Thor since God of Thunder started and Jane's never been an important character to me til now (doesn't help that she was played on the big screen by a mannequin) whereas Laura's been my favourite young character for ages (til Kamala came along) and she's always been Laura to me since her original codename is clunky and in-universe shouldn't it be offensive to her? Like, frig, "don't call me by the designation my torturers gave me because they wanted to dehumanize me as much as possible, thanks". If people can't tell from context whether you're talking about the woman with the hero-name Thor or the Asgardian former hero personally named Thor, I dunno, then you're bad at getting your point across. e: it always takes me 20 minutes to post while at work, gently caress. Also if Miles wanted to avoid being called the black Spider-Man he could, I dunno, get a new costume that wasn't black. You're still going to be called something else as the second existing Spider-Man, but it's within your power to be commonly known as the blue Spider-Man, Miles! Diet Poison fucked around with this message at 20:45 on Jun 30, 2016 |
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2016 20:42
|
|
|
Diet Poison posted:When I read this stuff in the books I think "ugh, some people are awful" instead of "the writer is making a point". I can't recall an example so egregious that I found it unrealistic. The Cerulean Spider doesn't have the same ring to it sadly.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2016 20:47
|
|
|
Toxxupation posted:It depends on what canon you're going with, but 1610 Miles had a whole arc about how he got comfortable with the title after initial concerns. If you're going with 616 canon he literally met Spider-Man (Peter Parker) who said that he was totally fine with the name and, in fact, approved of it and then complimented his sweet outfit. Right, I know the basics, I just question the merits of doing a story beat like that in a post Secret Wars universe. In the 1610, Parker was dead and you've got that whole legacy/making it your own identity route to go down. Like Wally West Flash, or Laura Wolverine right now. But in the current Marvel U, why should I care about Miles' angst about his superhero identity when he straight up cribbed it off of somebody else? How does that play out? Is it all internal? Does he talk about it with his parents? The Avengers? I don't imagine Electro or JJJ or whomever even knows he is black (What does JJJ think about another Spider-Man running around, anyway?)
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2016 21:05
|
|
|
I refer to them as "New Thor" and "Thor Classic."
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2016 21:08
|
|
|
Luchacabra posted:I don't imagine Electro or JJJ or whomever even knows he is black (What does JJJ think about another Spider-Man running around, anyway?) His costume was torn and they saw he was black.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2016 21:08
|
|
|
bobkatt013 posted:His costume was torn and they saw he was black. There was part of an issue devoted to people being excited that he was black even.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2016 21:10
|
|
|
I disagree that the original and legacy characters can't co-exist or even supplant the original. If you ask anyone who grew up in the 90's who the Green Lantern is they are going to say John Stewart due to his featured role in the Justice League animated series. If you go earlier you'll have people say it's Kyle Rayner. It would probably still be like that if Geoff Johns didn't have a giant hard-on for Hal Jordan and made it an editorial mandate that he is the one and true Green Lantern. Peter and Miles can happily co-exist in the same space and have cool stories told about them. If you get hung up on who came first and who owns a name you're missing the forest for the trees. Because it's perfectly alright if Peter came first because that is how it happen. And when Miles became a new character that was so popular Marvel plucked him out of another dimension that is fine and good too. There is plenty of room for everyone out there.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2016 21:16
|
|
|
Luchacabra posted:Right, I know the basics, I just question the merits of doing a story beat like that in a post Secret Wars universe. His costume is torn, revealing that he's black. He then sees a video on YouTube where a vlogger tumblrgirl raves about how great and progressive it is that there's a black Spider-Man and how important for representation it is. It annoys him because he sees it as backhanded marginalization that's obsessed more with his racial background (and also not even accurate, considering he's half-black/half-Hispanic) than any work he's ever done. Ganke, his best friend, who's a severely overweight Asian dude, tells him about how Goldballs is his favorite superhero because there aren't any obese superheroes and he sees himself reflected in Goldballs and how like it or not as a black Spider-Man he represents black people and is an icon for black people, and needs to carry that banner. Currently Miles is struggling with trying to figure out how he wants to be seen as a black superhero. It's actually pretty nuanced, especially considering how he's a fifteen-year-old kid.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2016 21:16
|
|
|
Trast posted:I disagree that the original and legacy characters can't co-exist or even supplant the original. If you ask anyone who grew up in the 90's who the Green Lantern is they are going to say John Stewart due to his featured role in the Justice League animated series. If you go earlier you'll have people say it's Kyle Rayner. It would probably still be like that if Geoff Johns didn't have a giant hard-on for Hal Jordan and made it an editorial mandate that he is the one and true Green Lantern. That is because you're talking about two different mediums. John Stewart was the only meaningful Green Lantern in the Justice League Cartoon so anyone who didn't read comics would only know about him. He wasn't sharing screentime with Hal Jordan or Kyle. Kyle likewise was the Only Green Lantern except for Guy who was either a Yellow Lantern or Warrior at that time.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2016 21:21
|
|
|
Wally is definitely who I think of when I think of the Flash, but that's also because of the cartoon(and also, Barry having even less personality than Hal).
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2016 21:23
|
|
|
WickedHate posted:I don't know how organic it can be, or if anything like that can really be introduced without setting off alarm bells for being forced. An rear end in a top hat was an rear end in a top hat for a few pages and got punched out, because he is a super villain. PaybackJack posted:To be honest it's pretty heavy handed and clearly meant as the writer's rebuttal to the grumpy MRA garbage that gets spewed on the internet. I didn't mind it so much because it's a panel here and there...I guess it makes for good troll bait on Tumblr or whatever the anti-feminist crowd is posting on these days. It definitely didn't detract from the overall experience of the comic though. That's what I wondered. Well, so long as it works for other people I guess.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2016 21:31
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:That is because you're talking about two different mediums. John Stewart was the only meaningful Green Lantern in the Justice League Cartoon so anyone who didn't read comics would only know about him. He wasn't sharing screentime with Hal Jordan or Kyle. Kyle likewise was the Only Green Lantern except for Guy who was either a Yellow Lantern or Warrior at that time. I'm not sure how the mediums invalidate my claim. Are you saying if Hal and John had been in the cartoon together John wouldn't have a chance of being his own character? When that bad Green Lantern movie came out Hal was front and center in the comics but a large group of people wanted to know why the Green Lantern was being played by a white canadian comedian and not say the Rock. Though the Lanterns are probably a bad example given they are all being actively buried for the one true white hope Hal Jordan.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2016 21:39
|
|
|
Luchacabra posted:What does JJJ think about another Spider-Man running around, anyway? Jameson doesn't care if Spider-Men are white, black, Chineese, or Kree. The only thing that matters to him is that each and every one of them is a menace.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2016 21:45
|
|
|
Nope, JJJ loves Silk. Even when she's working undercover as a villain.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2016 21:47
|
|
|
Well of course he likes Silk. The menaces are the Spider-Men.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2016 21:50
|
|
|
Trast posted:I'm not sure how the mediums invalidate my claim. Are you saying if Hal and John had been in the cartoon together John wouldn't have a chance of being his own character? When that bad Green Lantern movie came out Hal was front and center in the comics but a large group of people wanted to know why the Green Lantern was being played by a white canadian comedian and not say the Rock. Though the Lanterns are probably a bad example given they are all being actively buried for the one true white hope Hal Jordan. Yes, people know John over Hal because John was allowed to exist in a cartoon where he was the sole singular Green Lantern outside of cameos and thus the roles was entirely his. If he had been asked to share the screentime with Hal Jordan then that would have, at minimum, meant that "why is it Hal and not John" wouldn't even have been a thing. I also feel like, yeah, it's pretty likely he would have gotten overshadowed by Hal because Justice League already had trouble finding stuff for their entire cast to do even without adding in another redundant member.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2016 22:14
|
|
|
Don't worry, none of you will have to worry about these pesky young characters for much longer. 
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2016 22:31
|
|
|
NikkolasKing posted:But I can see what you're saying. Nobody remembers Rachel as Phoenix, even though she was the superior Phoenix. Rachel and Hope both get labeled by fans and Marvel staff alike as "the Poor Man's Jean Grey." This is ridiculous but it's a sad truth. Who are these strange people with wrong opinions? If anything, Jean's a poor man's Rachel, and Hope is a different but better character. That said, I'd be all for a new book by Marvel, "Grey" starring Jean, Rachel, and Hope (and maybe Madelyn Pryor can be around somewhere).
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2016 22:32
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 20:22 |
|
|
X-O posted:Don't worry, none of you will have to worry about these pesky young characters for much longer. I hope this plotline is just all of them seeing CW2 and going "gently caress this poo poo is so stupid, we're going on an adventure instead of being part of it."
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2016 22:41
|
|