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What I'm saying is that finding out we're not alone in the universe wouldn't, in and of itself, have much of an impact on the way we, as individuals, live our lives. I'd be really surprised if most people don't already go around under the assumption that there are aliens out there, somewhere.
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Jul 16, 2016 02:39
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:Love this post For sure, but we should add that Phylodox gets it right accidentally: that things are getting worse and worse is utterly normal. We should take the Marvel films at their word: Thor and the other heroes have utterly failed to have any actual impact on the world. Each big Event marks the loss of the potential where things might have turned out differently for once. Tony Stark killed Jarvis. He could have lived. It's as it was in District 9 - a momentary glimpse of a better world, then the return to normalcy: the opening of a concentration camp.
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Jul 16, 2016 02:41
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Phylodox posted:What I'm saying is that finding out we're not alone in the universe wouldn't, in and of itself, have much of an impact on the way we, as individuals, live our lives. I'd be really surprised if most people don't already go around under the assumption that there are aliens out there, somewhere. It's about half, and that's including the "well, I guess there's some pile of sludge somewhere else in the universe" people.
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Jul 16, 2016 03:02
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Pirate Jet posted:Obviously what Phylodox meant is that the Chirauri were a smaller event because 9/11 killed over 3000 people and a massive dimensional rift and alien invasion by a god only killed 74. It is kind of incredible that a Chitauri planetary invasion force was worse at killing people than a Tunisian guy with a truck Mechafunkzilla fucked around with this message at 03:37 on Jul 16, 2016 |
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Jul 16, 2016 03:18
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Mechafunkzilla posted:It is kind of incredible that a Chitauri planetary invasion force was worse worse at killing people than a Tunisian guy with a truck That's cause the Avengers were so effective! or something.
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Jul 16, 2016 03:35
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Canonically, "hundreds" of people died in New York. 74 is the number of people accidentally killed by the Avengers themselves.
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Jul 16, 2016 03:56
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Canonically, "hundreds" of people died in New York. Hahahaha
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Jul 16, 2016 03:59
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Away all Goats posted:That's cause the Avengers were so effective! or something. Right. So that reveals that on top of their usual superpowers, MCU characters must also have the superpowers of being the world's best evacuation team. Unfortunately, being able to run fast does not automatically mean you're good at getting people out of their homes, whether it's as fast as Quicksilver or just 1.5x regular human speed like Cap.
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Jul 16, 2016 04:13
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Suicide Squad was the movie I was most optimistic for, but every single piece of advertising for it after the first trailer has slowly diminished my enthusiasm.
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Jul 16, 2016 04:22
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Based on the figures provided by Marvel, we can guesstimate that between 7.4 and 37% of the dead in a given Avengers conflict are 'collateral damage' from 'friendly fire'. That would make the death toll in Sokovia anywhere from 478 to 2392, with 177 killed by the Avengers' own weapons. The funny thing is that, the higher you estimate the death toll, the more competent the Avengers look.
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Jul 16, 2016 04:24
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I like to imagine that Tony Stark has a folder of the best memes his exploits have inspired.
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Jul 16, 2016 04:35
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Rewatching The Dark Knight, and saying this as an unabashed Nolan fan, but the center chase seen is not edited well at all. Like a lot of other parts of the movie, Ledger rescues it. Inception and TDKR are definitely his best work. Also Affleck is a much better Batman.
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Jul 16, 2016 05:37
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They needed to keep it short so that you don't realize how the Joker's trap made no sense because they cleared and blocked off a route to jail ahead of time, so they could have just driven on the other side of the road instead of turning to a new route because of a single truck. I like that chase scene a lot but it's like Batman Begins' chase where they're on this not cleared out stretch of road that is somehow magically completely abandoned. The way in Begins they're on the Gotham equivalent of the BQE or whatever and it's just empty except for the Batmobile and like two cop cars was maximum LMAO.
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Jul 16, 2016 06:03
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Little late to the McTiernan chat, but just wanted to throw in a bit more love for Predator. As it's one of the all time greats because it's so wonderfully subversive - with a really wicked sense of humor. Hawkins: Billy. Billy! The other day, I was going down on my girlfriend, I said to her, "Jeez you got a big pussy. Jeez you got a big pussy." She said, "Why did you say that twice?" I said, "I didn't."  Hawkins: See, cuz of the echo.  Also another example that's a bit more of a slow burn. Dutch: What's the matter? The CIA got you pushing too many pencils? Huh? Had enough? Dillon: Make it easy on yourself, Dutch.  Dillon: OK, OK, OK! Dutch: You never did know when to quit, huh? 
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Jul 16, 2016 16:03
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Neo Rasa posted:They needed to keep it short so that you don't realize how the Joker's trap made no sense because they cleared and blocked off a route to jail ahead of time, so they could have just driven on the other side of the road instead of turning to a new route because of a single truck. I like that chase scene a lot but it's like Batman Begins' chase where they're on this not cleared out stretch of road that is somehow magically completely abandoned. The way in Begins they're on the Gotham equivalent of the BQE or whatever and it's just empty except for the Batmobile and like two cop cars was maximum LMAO. You can definitely see how it is a precursor to the dream logic of Inception and TDKR where the sort of editting of nonplace is used more effectively (ultimately recalling the brilliant use of it in The Shining); but it comes off as haphazard here.
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Jul 16, 2016 16:11
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Jimbot posted:They were at least tricked into doing that hit mission by their country rather than secret nazis. Boy, was that one of the most spineless plot points put in modern movies. Instead of human greed and corruption and all the things that can come with power, it's secret nazi machinations who are responsible for all the terrible things in the world. The concept of metaphor comes into play here. It's not "the problems of our world can be blamed on secret nazis", it's "fascism has taken root in America and is now ingrained at the highest levels of power." Hydra is a symbol. (See also The Man in the High Castle, also the Firesign Theater's How Can You Be In Two Places At Once When You're Not Anywhere At All- "The President of the United States is named Schickelgruber.")
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Jul 16, 2016 16:23
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Maxwell Lord posted:The concept of metaphor comes into play here. It's not "the problems of our world can be blamed on secret nazis", it's "fascism has taken root in America and is now ingrained at the highest levels of power." Hydra is a symbol. I think that would be a legitimate argument if we were then showed a radical change in society once the conspiracy was found out. Like there's not really a secret twist at the end, Cap definitely wins at the end of Winter Soldier. And yet, the only thing that seems to have changed is that a few specific people in power got arrested, and the system itself is unchanged. If your metaphor is "fascism is the way of business in the US today", then having a resolution that doesn't actually change how the US conducts business seems like it's undermining the point. Like someone mentioned earlier, it's part of the limitation of the MCU being a "sandbox". There's no real evidence of anything building off of itself. Things must always start at [Year the movie was released] and then be a chaotic distraction from the norm. computer parts fucked around with this message at 16:37 on Jul 16, 2016 |
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Jul 16, 2016 16:34
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computer parts posted:I think that would be a legitimate argument if we were then showed a radical change in society once the conspiracy was found out. Like there's not really a secret twist at the end, Cap definitely wins at the end of Winter Soldier. And yet, the only thing that seems to have changed is that a few specific people in power got arrested, and the system itself is unchanged. That's because the violent conflict of Cap vs. Hydra is itself also symbolic, just as Cap punching out Hitler was, just as Superman leveling the slums was. The hero's action is inspirational and showy and stands in for the hard practical work. One could argue this is counterproductive if you want to teach people how to actually alter the harmful systems in their lives, but instruction is not the main purpose here. The point is the underlying idea- "It could happen here, and quite possibly already has." That provocation is itself valuable.
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Jul 16, 2016 16:39
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Maxwell Lord posted:That's because the violent conflict of Cap vs. Hydra is itself also symbolic, just as Cap punching out Hitler was, just as Superman leveling the slums was. The hero's action is inspirational and showy and stands in for the hard practical work. Again, it's undermining itself. "It could happen here" stories traditionally end with the heroes losing or at least some significant struggle happening on the journey to overcoming. Nothing of that sort really happened with Winter Soldier. If the Hunger Games ended with them starting up new games but for all the Bad People instead (which is what the fascist resistance leader wanted) I would call that undermining itself too.
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Jul 16, 2016 17:03
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computer parts posted:Again, it's undermining itself. "It could happen here" stories traditionally end with the heroes losing or at least some significant struggle happening on the journey to overcoming. Traditionally but not necessarily- to the extent that any of this serves a social purpose it's to bring to the conversation the idea that X could happen, and make that part of the conversation. To start people thinking about the subject, and to strengthen certain associations ("A military industrial machine that can kill anyone in any place at any time" = "the bad guys".)
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Jul 16, 2016 17:22
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It loses a lot of its meaning by presenting those things as others. If it presented those people as something someone could become rather than violent psychopaths, then it would have had a stronger impact. Same with Captain America himself. He's always correct. People aren't like that. He's an unreachable ideal made manifest. He's a boring character and only the strength of the performance really saves it. The symbolism isn't lost on me and I appreciate it, but it just doesn't work in my opinion.
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Jul 16, 2016 17:29
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Maxwell Lord posted:Traditionally but not necessarily- to the extent that any of this serves a social purpose it's to bring to the conversation the idea that X could happen, and make that part of the conversation. To start people thinking about the subject, and to strengthen certain associations ("A military industrial machine that can kill anyone in any place at any time" = "the bad guys".) Which again, is undermined by that machine triumphantly returning in Age of Ultron.
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Jul 16, 2016 17:30
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computer parts posted:Which again, is undermined by that machine triumphantly returning in Age of Ultron. Eh, that's a different movie. Sure it's all one big saga but that doesn't preclude individual films from contradicting each other thematically. (And I don't recall SHIELD Mk 2 being able to do the "pinpoint a person and kill them" trick which was key to Hydra's thing- the machine has been bent to different uses, which goes back to the question of whether we should destroy the system/machine/establishment entirely or whether it can be made to serve man. I know the political discussion here is all burn-everything-down but other perspectives exist.)
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Jul 16, 2016 17:34
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Maxwell Lord posted:Eh, that's a different movie. Sure it's all one big saga but that doesn't preclude individual films from contradicting each other thematically. That's been my point, these films don't build on each other. Like no poo poo Winter Soldier works in a vacuum, and you can imagine society drastically changing based on its ending.
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Jul 16, 2016 17:37
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computer parts posted:That's been my point, these films don't build on each other. It's the fate of franchises. There's always a status quo to which to return, especially if you set the thing in "our world". But I don't think that compromises an individual film's effectiveness.
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Jul 16, 2016 17:41
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computer parts posted:Which again, is undermined by that machine triumphantly returning in Age of Ultron.
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Jul 16, 2016 17:42
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Maxwell Lord posted:It's the fate of franchises. There's always a status quo to which to return, especially if you set the thing in "our world". But I don't think that compromises an individual film's effectiveness. I mean again, The Hunger Games sequels did not do this and it dealt with similar themes.
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Jul 16, 2016 17:59
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computer parts posted:I mean again, The Hunger Games sequels did not do this and it dealt with similar themes. True but that's based closely on a series of books by the same author and had a set ending (whereas the MCU has to keep going for as long as these movies are profitable, so sayeth the shareholders). It's the same problem you get with the comics themselves, where major earth shattering changes never stick. The good story arcs still stand out.
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Jul 16, 2016 18:42
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Maxwell Lord posted:True but that's based closely on a series of books by the same author and had a set ending (whereas the MCU has to keep going for as long as these movies are profitable, so sayeth the shareholders). The good story arcs tend to be self contained.
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Jul 16, 2016 19:07
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computer parts posted:The good story arcs tend to be self contained. Grant Morrison is known for introducing characters and ideas that subsequent creators fail to do anything with. His run on X Men is still good even if Marvel actively backtracked the "mutants becoming a major demographic" thing.
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Jul 16, 2016 19:10
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I'd like to see someone go the route of Gundam X and explain that "Mutants are a lie".
MonsieurChoc fucked around with this message at 04:20 on Jul 17, 2016 |
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Jul 16, 2016 19:40
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MonsieurChoc posted:I'd like to see someone go the route of Gundam C and explain that "Mutants are a lie". The Ultimates universe basically did this and it was one of the better twists it pulled off, at least in the broad strokes.
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Jul 16, 2016 21:24
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Maxwell Lord posted:The concept of metaphor comes into play here. It's not "the problems of our world can be blamed on secret nazis", it's "fascism has taken root in America and is now ingrained at the highest levels of power." Hydra is a symbol. That's only true in Captain America 1 - where, after beating the metaphorical supernazis, Cap looks at real-world America and says "we're hardly better". Or in Man Of Steel/Dawn Of Justice where, after saving the world, Superman begins smashing Predator drones and issuing ultimatums to the US government. None of the (other) Marvel films convey that 'the supernazis are just a symptom, not the true enemy'.
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Jul 16, 2016 22:27
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Captain America 1 is one of the only good Marvel movies and it's a pity no one seems to remember it. Maybe because we've had a dozen of these bland rear end, dull as dishwater films since it was released 
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Jul 16, 2016 23:31
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It's one of my favorites. I watch it every once in a while.
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Jul 17, 2016 02:24
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computer parts posted:I think that would be a legitimate argument if we were then showed a radical change in society once the conspiracy was found out. Like there's not really a secret twist at the end, Cap definitely wins at the end of Winter Soldier. And yet, the only thing that seems to have changed is that a few specific people in power got arrested, and the system itself is unchanged. Isn't this more or less the whole reason Civil War takes place?
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Jul 17, 2016 02:36
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McSpanky posted:The Ultimates universe basically did this and it was one of the better twists it pulled off, at least in the broad strokes. Oh, that's interesting, how did that go? For comparison, in Gundam psychics known as Newtypes were a pretty big deal and seen as the future of humanity for manys eries. And then at the end of Gundam X they had the first Newtype say "Nah, we're just random mutations, people gave us meaning because that's what people do."
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Jul 17, 2016 04:25
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MonsieurChoc posted:Oh, that's interesting, how did that go? Basically worse than that. Not spoiling this because the ultimate universe is dead and this is age old information Mutants were created by some jackass scientist and let loose into the world. They aren't the next stage of anything, just another experiment gone wrong.
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Jul 17, 2016 04:32
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Burkion posted:Basically worse than that. That's how evolution works, though. Something randomly changes, and sometimes this results in an adaptive advantage instead of a cancer.
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Jul 17, 2016 04:49
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Hodgepodge posted:That's how evolution works, though. Something randomly changes, and sometimes this results in an adaptive advantage instead of a cancer. See the real problem with it, in my eyes, is the fact that there was no loving way the scientist had enough experiments that got unleashed on the world to make an entire sub population all across the planet. The saturation level would be insane- even if the powers didn't kick in until a generation or two later, there would not be the millions of mutants that there are. But I think the general negative reaction to it was that it wasn't a natural mutation, meaning it had less meaning and blah blah blah bullshit stuff. They pretty much just pulled it out of the hat to explain away mutants having weird powers because the Ultimate Universe was the No Fun Zone, and also as a way to break Magneto's spirit since he as all full of righteous fury and religious fever.
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Jul 17, 2016 04:58
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