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And even most cheating mods don't matter because they can't tell. And even in the cases when they can tell, you can just host your own lobbies and turn off kicking cheaters.
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Jul 31, 2016 01:12
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If you've been flagged as a cheater and you host your own lobby with the auto-kick enabled, will it kick you for being a cheater?
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Jul 31, 2016 01:20
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Meldonox posted:If you've been flagged as a cheater and you host your own lobby with the auto-kick enabled, will it kick you for being a cheater? How can mirrors be real if our eyes aren't real?
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Jul 31, 2016 02:32
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Max Wilco posted:Apart from the mods for weapons, are there any specific weapons that are worth purchasing? I haven't really bought anything too special, mostly just the lower tier stuff. Don't worry too much about this, for two reasons. First, you're going to get all of the guns pretty quickly - like 2-3 infamies in and you'll have everything (if not multiple copies of each). Second, there's actually really few Bad Guns. What constitutes a Good Gun is what you're good at clicking cops with - gunfeel is probably more important than raw stats. Just buy anything that looks kinda interesting, give it a few test runs and repeat. What gun you use more changes your play style than being good/bad/etc.
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Jul 31, 2016 02:51
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YET ANOTHER FAG posted:How can mirrors be real if our eyes aren't real? Dying is so mainstream #MONEY
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Jul 31, 2016 03:15
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does goonmod work with the current version? The last update was a few months ago and i know ive had a few semi-large-ish updates. i want to try out National Guard Response cause it looks hilarious. I am so glad i decided to look in on this thread.
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Jul 31, 2016 04:11
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Stealth is fine. It doesn't need mechanical overhauls.grimcreaper posted:does goonmod work with the current version? The last update was a few months ago and i know ive had a few semi-large-ish updates. i want to try out National Guard Response cause it looks hilarious. I am so glad i decided to look in on this thread. It may be worth waiting a bit- the author is reworking it soon, and it's currently out of date enough that there are starting to be substantial stability issues.
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Jul 31, 2016 05:02
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Goonmod works fine. Gage shop, gadget state, hold-to-interact, all the QOL stuff is good and fine. Have at it.
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Jul 31, 2016 05:29
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Mendrian posted:
One more reason being that the music when you go loud is about 20 times better. That's the main reason not to stealth Big Bank, for example.
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Jul 31, 2016 06:17
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Discendo Vox posted:Stealth is fine. It doesn't need mechanical overhauls. Thanks guys for the responses. I gave it a shot, but is it normal for the police to just stand still in droves? Maybe 10 cops or so will move at a time together, the rest just kinda clog things up and never move or shoot in NGR. Unless i place a turret down. Then every cop in eye sight starts shooting but still doesnt actually move.
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Jul 31, 2016 07:09
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Yeah, that's normal for NGR. It's kind of broken. The mutators are more of fun experiments rather than serious game changers. Well, maybe that one where every enemy floats up to the top of the skybox. That's a gamechanger.
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Jul 31, 2016 07:17
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Psion posted:Yeah, that's normal for NGR. It's kind of broken. I'll try that one tomorrow. Could be funny. I plan on trying excessive force on some unsuspecting friends as well.
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Jul 31, 2016 07:41
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grimcreaper posted:I plan on trying excessive force on some unsuspecting friends as well. Grimcreap'd again
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Jul 31, 2016 07:50
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Colosmicon posted:Grimcreap'd again That is going to follow me around on SA forever, isn't it?
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Jul 31, 2016 09:31
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Psion posted:
grimcreaper posted:That is going to follow me around on SA forever, isn't it?
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Jul 31, 2016 14:56
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Bort Bortles posted:Wait, what? All Cops Go to Heaven
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Jul 31, 2016 15:00
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Mendrian posted:gently caress stealth. 
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Jul 31, 2016 16:12
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Jul 31, 2016 19:37
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Crime Dad is Crocodile Dundee now? http://twitter.com/ericetebari/status/759495742033494017
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Jul 31, 2016 21:08
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^Alligator Dundee meaning he's Florida Man. The binary stealth/loud is dumb as poo poo and should be more gradual, and guard behavior is atrocious. Problem is once you rework stealth to a certain level you basically have an entirely separate game. Hopefully Payday 3 will have a new engine, and take some queues from MGS and Hitman when it comes to stealth.
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Jul 31, 2016 21:09
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Dr Cheeto posted:Crime Dad is Crocodile Dundee now? Sold.
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Jul 31, 2016 21:10
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Concordat posted:Problem is once you rework stealth to a certain level you basically have an entirely separate game. Hopefully Payday 3 will have a new engine, and take some queues from MGS and Hitman when it comes to stealth. Then we'd have different problems.
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Jul 31, 2016 21:23
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Stealth in this game is bad and unfun. Thanks.
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Jul 31, 2016 22:51
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I like stealth missions because I can stand by the van while someone else does all the work and still get rewarded
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Jul 31, 2016 23:00
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Stealth is fine. "gradual" stealth/loud thresholding doesn't begin to work on maps of the size of the ones in payday 2. Guard behavior within the game is also perfectly functional for the game as it stands. It's a bank robbing game, not MGS.
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Jul 31, 2016 23:09
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I'm watching Hardcore Henry right now and let me just say finding out what Jimmy's secret is really makes me wish OVK started adding his alternative versions to the game on occasion. Especially Punk Jimmy and Vest Jimmy.
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Jul 31, 2016 23:37
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Concordat posted:^Alligator Dundee meaning he's Florida Man. The best way PD3 could implement stealth is to remove it entirely
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Aug 1, 2016 01:26
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Skunkrocker posted:I'm watching Hardcore Henry right now and let me just say finding out what Jimmy's secret is really makes me wish OVK started adding his alternative versions to the game on occasion. Especially Punk Jimmy and Vest Jimmy. all 4 players should be able to play as jimmy at the same time in my very humble opinion
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Aug 1, 2016 01:33
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Discendo Vox posted:Stealth is fine. "gradual" stealth/loud thresholding doesn't begin to work on maps of the size of the ones in payday 2. Guard behavior within the game is also perfectly functional for the game as it stands. It's a bank robbing game, not MGS. I'm having trouble picturing what gradual stealth would even look like, outside of totally changing the stealth side into MGS or whatever. I do think stealth still has some design issues (and I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the limitations and jank we currently bump into are due to consoles), but overall I agree - it's fine. Outside of egregious technical issues (basically everything related to guard pathing and desync), I mostly come back to map design and the various awkward, abstracted layers (skills/perks/specialized equipment/detection risk) that help enforce the split. A number of stealth skills themselves are effectively binary which adds to the problem. With Sneaky Bastard/Low Blow we at least have something to make all of those +3 Concealment/-8 Stability weapon mods worth something, I guess. I'm suddenly thinking an awful lot about how poorly silent drilling is implemented and whether or not it would be more interesting if ECMs could take up a similar gamespace, even outside of the instant door-pop skill. Or just finding more interesting ways to handle the silent drilling situations we already have. John Murdoch fucked around with this message at 02:13 on Aug 1, 2016 |
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Aug 1, 2016 02:06
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John Murdoch posted:I'm suddenly thinking an awful lot about how poorly silent drilling is implemented and whether or not it would be more interesting if ECMs could take up a similar gamespace, even outside of the instant door-pop skill. Or just finding more interesting ways to handle the silent drilling situations we already have. I think the problem there (and the problem with objects emitting sounds in general) is that the locations of these objects is static. Having a silent drill is either necessary, or not at all necessary (or beneficial if you like breaking Big Bank over your knee like me). There's not really a good way around that. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 02:52 on Aug 1, 2016 |
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Aug 1, 2016 02:40
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"JIMMY! FOLLOW ME!..NOT YOU, THE OTHER JIMMY!"
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Aug 1, 2016 02:45
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Discendo Vox posted:I think the problem there (and the problem with objects emitting sounds in general) is that the locations of these objects is static. having a silent drill is either necessary, or not at all necessary (or beneficial if you like breaking Big Bank over your knee like me). There's not really a good way around that. Using a drill in stealth at all feels a bit silly, especially when it's a "silent" thermal loving lance. Though at the same time messing around with the "Drill Standard" might create weirder edge cases if/when a heist flips from stealth to loud... My idea was for Election Day in particular, though it would also fit right into Shadow Raid as well - replace the cumbersome cage drilling in stealth with forcing them open using a crowbar. Have it work like the vault keys, taking X number of attempts before working, and perhaps have the action itself make noise in a radius if the inherent risk of being locked in looking at an object isn't sufficient. More flexible than being left hoping a guard doesn't randomly path into the room. Much more broadly speaking, I'm thinking about the tricky question of which gameplay elements should and should not cross over between stealth and loud. I think it's universally agreed at this point that heists should build out from goals with branching routes that allow for carryover between stealth and loud (Dockyard) rather than multiple goals with wholly separate objectives (Framing Frame) and that some jobs could really use some kind of proper stealth route (Trustee Bank  ). But beyond those guidelines things get messy.I'm also mulling over the slightly frustrating inconsistencies with guard AI from map to map. Stealth games basically require their AI to be stupid up to a certain point, so I don't have a problem with them being oblivious to lots of things, but sometimes they arbitrarily do notice certain things, like the time lock door on Big Bank. Bain's dialogue on Election Day makes it sound like they were supposed to notice the open crates, but even if that were true they still wouldn't notice the cages being open or the camera guy being missing, etc. Thus coming full circle around to silent drilling and me questioning the fundamentals of sight and noise radii, and also the differences between civ and guard AI. Also the slightly odd conflict between silent drills and safe cracking. John Murdoch fucked around with this message at 03:10 on Aug 1, 2016 |
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Aug 1, 2016 02:58
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The main benefit of silent drilling is not having to listen to the god awful thermal lance when doing a mission loud.
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Aug 1, 2016 03:34
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Renegret posted:The main benefit of silent drilling is not having to listen to the god awful thermal lance when doing a mission loud.
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Aug 1, 2016 03:40
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John Murdoch posted:My idea was for Election Day in particular, though it would also fit right into Shadow Raid as well - replace the cumbersome cage drilling in stealth with forcing them open using a crowbar. Have it work like the vault keys, taking X number of attempts before working, and perhaps have the action itself make noise in a radius if the inherent risk of being locked in looking at an object isn't sufficient. More flexible than being left hoping a guard doesn't randomly path into the room. John Murdoch posted:Much more broadly speaking, I'm thinking about the tricky question of which gameplay elements should and should not cross over between stealth and loud. I think it's universally agreed at this point that heists should build out from goals with branching routes that allow for carryover between stealth and loud (Dockyard) rather than multiple goals with wholly separate objectives (Framing Frame) and that some jobs could really use some kind of proper stealth route (Trustee Bank I'm not sure what you mean about a "proper stealth route", or why Trustee would particularly need changes. You mean not waiting for a drill? John Murdoch posted:I'm also mulling over the slightly frustrating inconsistencies with guard AI from map to map. Stealth games basically require their AI to be stupid up to a certain point, so I don't have a problem with them being oblivious to lots of things, but sometimes they arbitrarily do notice certain things, like the time lock door on Big Bank. Bain's dialogue on Election Day makes it sound like they were supposed to notice the open crates, but even if that were true they still wouldn't notice the cages being open or the camera guy being missing, etc. The time lock door on Big Bank no longer alerts guards or civs. The crate thing seems to be one of several things that was dropped late in development on that day, probably because of the added frustration. It's listed for fixing, I believe.
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Aug 1, 2016 03:43
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Dr Cheeto posted:Crime Dad is Crocodile Dundee now? Whatever this is it owns
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Aug 1, 2016 04:52
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Discendo Vox posted:That's an appealing idea, but it also has the effect of making the map way easier. I think it'd have a pretty negligible effect on map difficulty*. Between the generous number of keycards you get by default (which you can also dupe) and the ability to ECM rush the map, the cages are usually not a big deal anyway. But when they do become a big deal, it's really easy to be forced into a losing state. Expecting the player to essentially guess where every guard on the map is going to be over the next 90 seconds feels unfair, whereas the crowbar method asks them to keep lookout for incoming guards (and possibly wait for the room to clear), already a basic stealth skill, while otherwise meeting the same general gameplay goal as the drill. *Actually since this would involve adding crowbars to the lower difficulties, technically it would slightly increase the potential difficulty on non-DW. Discendo Vox posted:I'm not sure what you mean about a "proper stealth route", or why Trustee would particularly need changes. You mean not waiting for a drill? Yeah, that. A lot of the early, simpler maps resolve with waiting out a long drill even if you stealth it properly, which probably doesn't make a great first impression for quiet gameplay. To put it into the terms of the design framework I'm thinking about, your ultimate goal on Trustee bank is to open the vault and get the money. Stealthing doesn't actually work towards that goal through its own means, it simply makes the loud method, drilling the vault, "easier". Edit: Though again, stealth/loud crossover is a complicated issue. If you screwed up a hypothetical more detailed stealth path, would going loud just gently caress you over like in GO Bank and force you to resort to the thermal drill anyway? Frankly even outside of stealth design theorycrafting or whatever, asking players to sit around and do literally nothing for an extended period of time is godawful. And worse still, assuming you're going into it blind or otherwise ill-equipped, then you'll probably have to wait for the interior gate too. And then you might have to pick the deposit boxes, with the slower pick speed. All that tedium and it's in service of an entry-level heist with an entry-level payout. At least Framing Frame always paid pretty well for all the poo poo it puts you through. Discendo Vox posted:The time lock door on Big Bank no longer alerts guards or civs. Huh, good to know. John Murdoch fucked around with this message at 08:12 on Aug 1, 2016 |
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Aug 1, 2016 07:12
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John Murdoch posted:I'm having trouble picturing what gradual stealth would even look like, outside of totally changing the stealth side into MGS or whatever. I do think stealth still has some design issues (and I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the limitations and jank we currently bump into are due to consoles), but overall I agree - it's fine. Stealth is 'fine' in a functional kind of way, yes. It's hosed at the conceptual level. Like, somebody needs or needed to sit down and say, 'under what circumstance would players want to stealth? What are the rewards? The incentives? What is the cost?' The problem with stealth in Payday 2 is that it is a prison dimension that you are voluntarily transported to because one of your friends likes it for some incomprehensible reason. It is completely incompatible with the rest of the game and is best enjoyed as an optional 'challenge mode' between other heists. Shadow Raid is pretty much The Best Stealth Heist in this way because it's engaging and open; but it's only enjoyable because you must engage with it in stealth. Even then you get to put on your Stealth Skills and your Stealth Guns and your Stealth Armor because 90% of the game's content is utterly divorced from said prison dimension.
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Aug 1, 2016 08:02
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John Murdoch posted:I think it'd have a pretty negligible effect on map difficulty*. Between the generous number of keycards you get by default (which you can also dupe) and the ability to ECM rush the map, the cages are usually not a big deal anyway. But when they do become a big deal, it's really easy to be forced into a losing state. Expecting the player to essentially guess where every guard on the map is going to be over the next 90 seconds feels unfair, whereas the crowbar method asks them to keep lookout for incoming guards (and possibly wait for the room to clear), already a basic stealth skill, while otherwise meeting the same general gameplay goal as the drill. You never need to open cages. There are always enough voting machines in the other areas of the warehouse. The cages take 60 seconds with no drill skills, ~40 with. They can also be opened with the silent saw. John Murdoch posted:Frankly even outside of stealth design theorycrafting or whatever, asking players to sit around and do literally nothing for an extended period of time is godawful. And worse still, assuming you're going into it blind or otherwise ill-equipped, then you'll probably have to wait for the interior gate too. And then you might have to pick the deposit boxes, with the slower pick speed. All that tedium and it's in service of an entry-level heist with an entry-level payout. At least Framing Frame always paid pretty well for all the poo poo it puts you through. You don't have to do any of the things you describe after the initial drill. Saws, and silenced saws, and the keyring, and the ATMs on deposit, exist. My approach to the drill wait is to take advantage of subsequent heists and give players something to avoid or do to maintain stealth. Mendrian posted:The problem with stealth in Payday 2 is that it is a prison dimension that you are voluntarily transported to because one of your friends likes it for some incomprehensible reason. Your complete unwillingness to understand why others enjoy stealth is really on you, dude.
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Aug 1, 2016 08:45
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Mendrian posted:Stealth is 'fine' in a functional kind of way, yes. It's hosed at the conceptual level. Like, somebody needs or needed to sit down and say, 'under what circumstance would players want to stealth? What are the rewards? The incentives? What is the cost?' I fully agree. All of those issues are ones I've been thinking about for a long time now. The weird thing is that they already sort of got it right in Payday 1, where staying quiet in Diamond Heist and No Mercy had really nice benefits even before you factor in the more difficult combat itself creating a good reason to not poke the hornet's nest right away. There's elements of that sprinkled throughout 2, and you have the attempt at granting greater rewards for stealth in Framing Frame and Election Day, not to mention Stealth Bonuses in general, but there's never really been clear or consistent motivation to stealth. I'm one of the people who actually like stealth, but I'm at least sympathetic to the folks who don't. In the early days there was also a vibe that successful stealth runs were supposed to be a real rarity, not to mention there were plenty of loud only heists well before any stealth only ones. They clearly put more effort into making the loud gameplay satisfying than with the quiet gameplay, and it shows. (Personally at this point I wish they'd both flesh out stealth gameplay somehow and also improve loud map design, but maybe that's just me.) John Murdoch fucked around with this message at 08:54 on Aug 1, 2016 |
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Aug 1, 2016 08:52
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