|
AnxiousApatosaurus posted:Re: post ST09 Romulan chat: I just watched TNG's Reunification the other night and given that Spock stays on Romulus to assist the movement and the next time we see him is ST09 where he is openly assisting the Romulan government with advanced Federation tech, did reunification succeed? No but we do see in later episodes that his unification movement grows and spreads to the military so he was making progress. And in stories that came out before 09 the Romulan empire splits for a bit and one of the two factions is more open to the Federation, so he was kinda on the right track there.
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2016 19:24
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 10, 2024 18:00 |
|
|
Cojawfee posted:The fact that they use telepathic and empathic aliens in an official capacity is such bullshit. They could just pretend you're lying and no one would know. EvilTaytoMan posted:They actually addressed this... in Babylon 5. They addressed it in TNG. In "The Drumhead" an investigator is using a telepath and using his word alone to harass some young crewman. When Picard gives them poo poo about it, the investigator notes that Picard uses Troi's abilities when he needs it and he admits that he really shouldn't and he needs to re-evaluate his own procedures.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2016 20:07
|
|
|
Met posted:They addressed it in TNG. In "The Drumhead" an investigator is using a telepath and using his word alone to harass some young crewman. When Picard gives them poo poo about it, the investigator notes that Picard uses Troi's abilities when he needs it and he admits that he really shouldn't and he needs to re-evaluate his own procedures. Yet another reason The Drumhead is such an amazing episode. That and Measure of a Man are great examples of Federation ethics at their highest point.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2016 21:26
|
|
|
Cojawfee posted:The fact that they use telepathic and empathic aliens in an official capacity is such bullshit. They could just pretend you're lying and no one would know. My favorite thing is the episode where Data gets kidnapped by the collector guy. Troi being able to tell that the dude is lying would instantly resolve the conflict, but she's not on the bridge at the time so I guess everyone just takes his word for it and accepts that Data is dead with absolutely zero foul play.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2016 21:38
|
|
|
Fister Roboto posted:My favorite thing is the episode where Data gets kidnapped by the collector guy. Troi being able to tell that the dude is lying would instantly resolve the conflict, but she's not on the bridge at the time so I guess everyone just takes his word for it and accepts that Data is dead with absolutely zero foul play. Also, in the episode with the Pakled, Troi goes "Hey, I sense deception from them, we should probably be careful" and Riker goes  "Pfffffffft, whatever. Send over our Chief Engineer."
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2016 21:42
|
|
|
Cat Hatter posted:The Defiant isn't the fastest ship, it can only go Warp 9.5 (holy poo poo writers, a whole tenth of warp? Sure you don't want to bump it up to 9.55 so it doesn't lag too far behind the Enterprise? The loving war will be over by the time the Defiant shows up!). The asymptotic warp scale is dumb as shiiiiiit
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2016 21:52
|
|
|
WampaLord posted:Also, in the episode with the Pakled, Troi goes "Hey, I sense deception from them, we should probably be careful" and Riker goes 
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2016 21:58
|
|
|
Tunicate posted:The asymptotic warp scale is dumb as shiiiiiit I've seen this said a lot in the thread and I don't get it? I like it because it prevents constant inflation. Rules are good because they give you a framework for different writers to say within.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2016 22:03
|
|
|
Gaz-L posted:I've seen this said a lot in the thread and I don't get it? I like it because it prevents constant inflation. Rules are good because they give you a framework for different writers to say within. Because there's still inflation, it's just doing warp 9.9 instead of warp 9.8, and 9.95 instead of 9.9 End result is you have a scale where even fewer numbers are used than videogame reviews do, and it becomes impossible to communicate the viewer any meaningful differences.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2016 22:10
|
|
|
Tunicate posted:Because there's still inflation, it's just doing warp 9.9 instead of warp 9.8, and 9.95 instead of 9.9 Not sure how that's worse than warp 261341
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2016 22:11
|
|
|
I'm not saying that the asymptotic warp scale should be hauling garbage...
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2016 22:14
|
|
|
The last episode of TAS has a ship going like warp 36 or something. It's dumb. I watched all of TAS recently and I rather liked it. Most of the plots are no more absurd than many TOS episodes and when they're bad they're over in twenty-some minutes instead of 50. There's nothing as bad as The Alternative Factor, for instance.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2016 22:14
|
|
|
Was the TOS warp scale squared or cubed? Like was warp 2 4 times the speed of light, or 8? I do think this has the advantage of making things get hilariously, atrociously fast as you go higher, but also might raise some practical problems here and there. It might also require the occasional glance at practical limitations (like 'is the ship actually able to go fast enough to do what we want it to do').
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2016 22:16
|
|
|
cenotaph posted:The last episode of TAS has a ship going like warp 36 or something. It's dumb. To be fair that was in the anti-time negaverse where Benjamin Button came from.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2016 22:16
|
|
|
I seem to recall Riker ordering the triple-nacelle Enterprise to do something like Warp 13 in All Good Things.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2016 22:20
|
|
|
Zurui posted:Yet another reason The Drumhead is such an amazing episode. That and Measure of a Man are great examples of Federation ethics at their highest point. This is what's great about Star Trek, and TNG in particular. We can go on for dozens of pages about space battles, but the definitive episodes are just people
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2016 22:20
|
|
|
Nessus posted:Was the TOS warp scale squared or cubed? Like was warp 2 4 times the speed of light, or 8? The TOS scale was just a number. The TNG scale was set up with a 10 being unreachable and a log scale to prevent what happened with TOS where writers kept trying to one up warp factors. Some book or comic ones did Warp 35 or something stupid like that.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2016 22:29
|
|
|
Cojawfee posted:The TOS scale was just a number. The TNG scale was set up with a 10 being unreachable and a log scale to prevent what happened with TOS where writers kept trying to one up warp factors. Some book or comic ones did Warp 35 or something stupid like that. The TOS scale was just cubed so warp 1 = 1c, warp 2 = 8c, warp 3 = 27c, etc. It's neat because it's already exponential. In the original series it takes alien supertech to go much over their emergency speed of Warp 8 and even then it's like 12 or 15*. Viewers can relate to a number like that. Unless you're into Trek you won't understand that Warp 9.5 is like, ten times faster than Warp 9. Then "Threshold" happened.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2016 22:44
|
|
|
I know WARP 9 ENGAGE!!!!!! is a Trek convention, but they'd have been better served by just using nautical conventions or reactor output percentages. I don't know how fast Soviet Submarine goes, but in Hunt for Red October when the one dude says "go to 105% on the reactor" you know they're in a drat hurry.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2016 23:57
|
|
|
The new warp scale is stupid because it's the same formula (with a slightly bigger exponent) up until warp 9, and after that it's a hand-drawn asymptote to infinity at warp ten.
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2016 00:09
|
|
|
Gau posted:The TOS scale was just cubed so warp 1 = 1c, warp 2 = 8c, warp 3 = 27c, etc. It's neat because it's already exponential. In the original series it takes alien supertech to go much over their emergency speed of Warp 8 and even then it's like 12 or 15*. Viewers can relate to a number like that. Unless you're into Trek you won't understand that Warp 9.5 is like, ten times faster than Warp 9. Here's the thing, no matter what the scale is, eventually the showrunners have to say "OK, guys, the upper limit is x" and you'll then get smartasses going to (x-1).9999. It's not the Warp 10 log scale that's the issue. 10 is a nice number to set as the limit. Sash! posted:I know WARP 9 ENGAGE!!!!!! is a Trek convention, but they'd have been better served by just using nautical conventions or reactor output percentages. Yes, and when Picard says "go to Rigel 14 at warp 7" then they get a distress call and he says "increase to warp 9.5" you get that he's saying "GO WAY FASTER". But if he said "increase to warp 2000" you've lost all sense of scale.
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2016 00:34
|
|
|
Gaz-L posted:Yes, and when Picard says "go to Rigel 14 at warp 7" then they get a distress call and he says "increase to warp 9.5" you get that he's saying "GO WAY FASTER". But if he said "increase to warp 2000" you've lost all sense of scale. And clearly there's a sense of huge changes in scale involved in going from warp 9.5 to warp 9.7!!!!!!!!!
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2016 00:40
|
|
|
Tunicate posted:And clearly there's a sense of huge changes in scale involved in going from warp 9.5 to warp 9.7!!!!!!!!! My point is that saying the limit is warp 100 wouldn't 'fix' the problem. Just like scoring video game reviews out of 5 or 100 doesn't fix the issues of whether an 8.75 is an insult compared to a 9 because you'll just get people bitching about how GTA 7 got only a 92 or only a 4.2. No matter what the limit is, you're gonna want the protagonists to be able to be near it. The only way to avoid having writers giving numbers near the top of the scale is not to have numbers at all. Hell, even the 105% figure from Red October could easily fall victim to the same issue. Some writer thinking "my story is way more dire, they'll need to go to 110%" Also, I'm fully self-aware of how stupid this argument is for multiple reasons. I'm not liable to convince anyone, I know, and in the grand scheme, it doesn't really matter what random numbers are used as long as the drama works.
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2016 00:47
|
|
|
A similar but less-often-seen problem was starbase inflation. During the original series, it only went up to Starbase 12, I think. During TNG, after someone mentioned Starbase 718 in the first season, they decided that having that many starbases sounded dumb. So word came down that the writers should try to keep them under 500 or so. Which they mostly did, but not always.
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2016 00:53
|
|
|
Powered Descent posted:A similar but less-often-seen problem was starbase inflation. During the original series, it only went up to Starbase 12, I think. During TNG, after someone mentioned Starbase 718 in the first season, they decided that having that many starbases sounded dumb. So word came down that the writers should try to keep them under 500 or so. Which they mostly did, but not always.
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2016 01:09
|
|
|
I don't get why warp has a numerical speed gauge at all. Narratively, I mean. It just causes all these problems when you could just keep it ambiguous and say "max speed", or "we have to faster!"
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2016 01:18
|
|
|
FLY HER APART THEN!
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2016 01:19
|
|
|
Geordi hurriedly chucking more crystals into the Dilithium matrix with a neon plastic shovel.
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2016 01:20
|
|
|
WickedHate posted:I don't get why warp has a numerical speed gauge at all. Narratively, I mean. It just causes all these problems when you could just keep it ambiguous and say "max speed", or "we have to faster!" Because its not a cartoon.
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2016 01:20
|
|
|
Gonz posted:Geordi hurriedly chucking more crystals into the Dilithium matrix with a neon plastic shovel. Someone draw this please
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2016 01:21
|
|
|
bull3964 posted:FLY HER APART THEN! This, by the way, is how you show that a speed is REAL FAST. Have the characters react like it's insane to go that fast or that it's dangerous.
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2016 01:25
|
|
|
WickedHate posted:I don't get why warp has a numerical speed gauge at all. Narratively, I mean. It just causes all these problems when you could just keep it ambiguous and say "max speed", or "we have to faster!" Because the writers aren't very good and use technobabble as a replacement for story.
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2016 01:47
|
|
|
I took a break from the thread when STB came out because I have a two year old so it takes me weeks to find time to see a movie in the theater. I binged TOS during some vacation time, finally saw STB (and loved it), and dove right into watching ENT today. A few observations from the premiere two-parter of ENT: Dat theme song. In a word: fremdschämen. Or, in an emoticon:   It seemed like the longest scene was the gratuitous eye candy scene where Trip and T'Pol oil each other up in the decontamination chamber. I don't know if that's actually true, but that scene seemed to go on for a long time. Also: both of their junks got totally contaminated. Just saying. Phlox is the poo poo and I want more of this character. I'm partial to Trek doctors, since Bones and VOY's The Doctor are two of my favorite Trek characters. Bashir isn't half bad, either. I even tried to like Bev Crusher, for what little they did with her. Phlox is going places. I can feel it.   I love that there's no shields and other low-tech garbage everywhere, although I know that won't last because I've been reading the Trek threads for long enough. I kind of wish they did even more with it, like having the ships using slug weapons now and then. I wanted to hate Trip, but I found myself liking him as part of the triumvirate of Archer/T'Pol/Trip. A similar trio was the core of TOS, and if ENT can keep it up, it'll at least have that to fall back on.By god, I'm looking forward to the rest of ENT!
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2016 02:00
|
|
|
Who says starbases are numbered sequentially? Maybe the first ones were, but eventually they came up with more of an address system that defines space into sectors or what ever. So the 5th starbase in sector 10 would be sector 1005. There aren't 200 apartments on my floor, the 200 is for the 2nd floor. /\ Yeah the tech in enterprise functions exactly the same as the tech in TNG or any other trek, they just did a find/replace in the script. "no no, they don't have shields, they have uh, charged hull plating. Write it exactly the same though"
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2016 02:02
|
|
|
Baronjutter posted:Who says starbases are numbered sequentially? Maybe the first ones were, but eventually they came up with more of an address system that defines space into sectors or what ever. So the 5th starbase in sector 10 would be sector 1005. There aren't 200 apartments on my floor, the 200 is for the 2nd floor. This was always my assumption except with some sort of coding. Like, 4000-series starbases are space-based refit facilities or somesuch.
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2016 02:18
|
|
|
There's apparently over 150 official member worlds, and that's probably only including homeworlds as I'm sure most members also have dozens or more colonies. Each one probably has some minor starbase of some sort, plus all sorts of other stations all throughout federation space for various purposes. I could see them easily having 1000+ bases, specially since a "starbase" seems to include both surface facilities, orbitals, and deep space platforms.
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2016 02:31
|
|
|
Also it's probably standard procedure to use serial numbers that avoid the german tank problem.
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2016 02:49
|
|
|
I don't have the time to post a bit-by-bit breakdown of some of the stuff that's come out during discovery in the Axanar lawsuit, but the long story short is that the director of Prelude to Axanar has said, under oath, that Alec Peters developed Axanar as a spec project, that he believed that crowdfunding the fan-film would make CBS and Paramount bring him to the table, and his idea was that they'd buy it from him and he'd be one of the chiefs of Trek's creative future (and Tony Todd says that he was led to believe that Axanar was an officially licensed project). After they told him to pound sand, he started throwing his tantrums, doing profit-making ventures, all that poo poo. What a piece of crap.
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2016 03:46
|
|
|
Timby posted:I don't have the time to post a bit-by-bit breakdown of some of the stuff that's come out during discovery in the Axanar lawsuit, but the long story short is that the director of Prelude to Axanar has said, under oath, that Alec Peters developed Axanar as a spec project, that he believed that crowdfunding the fan-film would make CBS and Paramount bring him to the table, and his idea was that they'd buy it from him and he'd be one of the chiefs of Trek's creative future (and Tony Todd says that he was led to believe that Axanar was an officially licensed project). After they told him to pound sand, he started throwing his tantrums, doing profit-making ventures, all that poo poo.  This has been such a good day.I mean, aside from the fact that he torpedoed all other fan productions. That's still lovely.
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2016 03:57
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 10, 2024 18:00 |
|
|
Timby posted:I don't have the time to post a bit-by-bit breakdown of some of the stuff that's come out during discovery in the Axanar lawsuit, but the long story short is that the director of Prelude to Axanar has said, under oath, that Alec Peters developed Axanar as a spec project, that he believed that crowdfunding the fan-film would make CBS and Paramount bring him to the table, and his idea was that they'd buy it from him and he'd be one of the chiefs of Trek's creative future (and Tony Todd says that he was led to believe that Axanar was an officially licensed project). After they told him to pound sand, he started throwing his tantrums, doing profit-making ventures, all that poo poo. Isn't this basically the Dominion War plot except fought over an executive table? Who's Sisko here? Who's Odo?
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2016 04:00
|
|
