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SolidSnakesBandana posted:This is utter nonsense. Every superhero is a vigilante fighting for the law, Batman is not unique in that regard. Where does Superman usually put his vanquished foes? Apart from "the issue after this one" I mean.
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Aug 19, 2016 21:20
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Batman works with the police but generally it's in an extra-legal manner. And when it isn't extra-legal, that's probably an indictment of the law, because beating people up to stop crimes is barbaric. Its implied that the police tolerate Batman because he's so dope-nasty that they'd be silly not to enlist his help
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Aug 19, 2016 21:21
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Grendels Dad posted:Where does Superman usually put his vanquished foes? Apart from "the issue after this one" I mean. Prison usually, I thought.
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Aug 19, 2016 21:21
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Oliver Queen killing people and getting away with it makes perfect sense. That he's killing them personally with a big green bow and arrow is a fictive exaggeration, but I mean, the dude is rich.
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Aug 19, 2016 21:21
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Grendels Dad posted:Where does Superman usually put his vanquished foes? Apart from "the issue after this one" I mean. Stryker's Island. Basically Metropolis's Arkham. They are equipped to deal with superpowered foes.
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Aug 19, 2016 21:22
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If anything the "nonsensical" DC TV show is Flash, where the villains are routinely imprisoned in tiny grey cells with no bed, toilet, or obvious means of feeding them, let alone anyone to communicate with or anything to help them not go insane, and this is portrayed as incredibly heroic and the brighter, more idealistic vision that Oliver Queen should live up to if he weren't such a ~tormented soul~.
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Aug 19, 2016 21:23
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:This is utter nonsense. Every superhero is a vigilante fighting for the law, Batman is not unique in that regard. Not to mention the no-killing thing applied across the entire DC Universe, not just Batman. Season 1 of Arrow made little sense when Oliver Queen was killing folks so they ended up backstepping and making him stop killing dudes. Hahaha a dude whose gimmick is shooting people with a bow and arrow doesn't kill people anymore?
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Aug 19, 2016 21:24
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In one episode they kind of allude to this and their solution is "I know, let's give them to Amanda Waller as a gift!"
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Aug 19, 2016 21:24
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RBA Starblade posted:Prison usually, I thought. I haven't read a Superman comic in eons so I'm not being facetious when I ask this, but really? Mogul or Darkseid or Doomsday don't strike me as the prisoner type, they are more the "throw them into the sun" type.
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Aug 19, 2016 21:25
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:If anything the "nonsensical" DC TV show is Flash, where the villains are routinely imprisoned in tiny grey cells with no bed, toilet, or obvious means of feeding them, let alone anyone to communicate with or anything to help them not go insane, and this is portrayed as incredibly heroic and the brighter, more idealistic vision that Oliver Queen should live up to if he weren't such a ~tormented soul~. I agree completely. Flash's super prison is some crazy poo poo.
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Aug 19, 2016 21:25
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DeimosRising posted:Hahaha a dude whose gimmick is shooting people with a bow and arrow doesn't kill people anymore? There's a throwaway line about criminals with shoulder wounds from arrows increasing dramatically or something to that effect. It's insanely silly.
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Aug 19, 2016 21:25
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Grendels Dad posted:I haven't read a Superman comic in eons so I'm not being facetious when I ask this, but really? Mogul or Darkseid or Doomsday don't strike me as the prisoner type, they are more the "throw them into the sun" type. Pretty sure Superman killed Doomsday but I think with Mongul or Darkseid he just punches them until they leave.
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Aug 19, 2016 21:26
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:I agree completely. Flash's super prison is some crazy poo poo. Well, okay, great, but my point is that this dissonance is only a positive for a story if you engage with it. To portray Barry Allen, budding Eichmann as an all around good guy and a heroic figure should set your teeth on edge. Batman's the same way; what's heroic about a man whose superpowers are police brutality, surveillance, and terror?
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Aug 19, 2016 21:30
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The problem with that though is that all heroes in Marvel and DC use violence as their weapon. It seems weird to harp on Batman specifically.
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Aug 19, 2016 21:31
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Grendels Dad posted:I haven't read a Superman comic in eons so I'm not being facetious when I ask this, but really? Mogul or Darkseid or Doomsday don't strike me as the prisoner type, they are more the "throw them into the sun" type. I thought Metropolis had a Not Arkham or something for the supercriminals. I know Lex keeps breaking out of somewhere.
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Aug 19, 2016 21:32
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Grendels Dad posted:I haven't read a Superman comic in eons so I'm not being facetious when I ask this, but really? Mogul or Darkseid or Doomsday don't strike me as the prisoner type, they are more the "throw them into the sun" type. I don't know about in the comics, but in the animated series Supes pretty much just beats the poo poo out of Mogul and leaves him at the mercy of his now empowered slaves. Effectively succeeds at what he tried to do to Darkseid, without realizing that Darkseid was the real deal capitol G God to them. Doomsday is a kill it problem or a "Find some way to get rid of it" thing. Darkseid he has tried to kill, and has killed. Just again, capitol G God thing, dude always comes back. With Superman, the hard and fast truth is that he's never really had a No Kill Policy. That's never been a thing with him. He will kill when his life is in danger because it would be stupid otherwise. With villains like Lex, or Toyman, he can figure out a better, more humane way. But something that is as powerful, if not more powerful, than himself? If there is no other way to stop them, then putting them down is the only solution.
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Aug 19, 2016 21:33
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:The problem with that though is that all heroes in Marvel and DC use violence as their weapon. It seems weird to harp on Batman specifically. Two different issues with that, though. I'm not completely denying the possibility of heroic violence, for one. I'm automatically suspicious of it, but self-defense and defense of others is an incredibly complex topic susceptible to all kinds of interpretations. The other is that Batman represents something much more specific. Like, if I said that Spider-man represents police brutality, surveillance, and terror I'd be an idiot; he's a kid who just wants to help and doesn't always think things through.
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Aug 19, 2016 21:34
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In the Batman 1960s series Batman and Robin were fully deputized members of the Gotham Police.
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Aug 19, 2016 21:39
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Like, if I said that Spider-man represents police brutality, surveillance, and terror I'd be an idiot; he's a kid who just wants to help and doesn't always think things through. Try telling that to J. Jonah Jameson.
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Aug 19, 2016 21:48
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:Try telling that to J. Jonah Jameson. Who cares what J. Jonah Jameson thinks? We have a god's eye view so we know he's objectively wrong. What does this even mean?
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Aug 19, 2016 21:51
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:Try telling that to J. Jonah Jameson. Jameson's right too, in a sense. He doesn't know Spiderman is Peter Parker; he just knows there's a guy who dresses up as a spider and leaves criminals dangling from lamp posts.
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Aug 19, 2016 21:51
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You could tell an awesome story about a poor but bright white kid who gets to validate his dreams of being a Randian super-inventor and crime fighter vs. a guy well-off enough to run a newspaper and become the mayor of New York, but who doesn't like vigilantism as a concept, without condescending to either of them.
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Aug 19, 2016 21:56
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Who cares what J. Jonah Jameson thinks? We have a god's eye view so we know he's objectively wrong. Spider-man: Threat or Menace?
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Aug 19, 2016 21:56
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That's the thing about escapist fiction, it takes incredibly complex real world situations and boils them down to just the raw bones and then 'solves' them via simplistic means that satisfy some deep need on some level. Like the Death Wish movies are pretty much just a "Wouldn't it be great if some dude just got fed up and fixed the gang problem by just shooting all the gang members" daydream stretched out to feature length (plus sequels). Comicbooks were often just "What if the lovely stuff in the world was done by certain people and some guy had the power to just punch them in the face and stop them and solve evil that way." They really don't stand up to close scrutiny but they were never meant to. They're pretty much the modern version of fairy tales/morality plays/myths. Porting those unrealistic escapist stories into a 'realistic' movie setting is often a really interesting exercise that stretches the characters to their logical limits and sometimes pushes them even further to the point where the character has to confront the wider implications of their actions and realise they can't continue along that path but that always runs the risk of riling up the "Not My ___man" crowd.
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Aug 19, 2016 22:01
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Also wow, apparently Jameson's background is basically the same as BvS Lex's in the comics, just not as rich. His father was a decorated war hero who abused him, leading him to fundamentally distrust the concept of heroism. 
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Aug 19, 2016 22:01
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Also I don't know if that comparison is fair to fairy tales and myths at all.
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Aug 19, 2016 22:05
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Is that actually Peter Serafinowicz's voice in The Tick? He's absolutely nailing Patrick Warburton if so.
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Aug 19, 2016 22:09
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Toady posted:The only good portrayal of Batman I can think of off the top of my head--good as in he's genuinely a good guy trying to make a difference--is Batman '66, a legally deputized member of the Gotham PD who obsessively follows the letter of the law. The first episode is about Batman receiving a lawsuit after being tricked into falsely arresting the Riddler. That's kind of the exception that proves the rule, though. They made a point to show how Batman works alongside and through the legal system in Batman '66 specifically because in the comics he definitely did not. Likewise, Batman '66 is portrayed as such a transparently good person because the in the comics he was not (expect when it was convenient for him). Grendels Dad posted:I haven't read a Superman comic in eons so I'm not being facetious when I ask this, but really? Mogul or Darkseid or Doomsday don't strike me as the prisoner type, they are more the "throw them into the sun" type. Superman did throw Mongol into a black hole, once.
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Aug 19, 2016 22:35
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I'm not just suggesting doom and gloom and cynicism, either, the idea of Batman submitting to a lawsuit because he accidentally didn't Batman according to compassionate and enlightened laws of society is kind of wonderful. I'm just saying -- fantasy should be exemplary reality, in both senses of the word.
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Aug 19, 2016 22:38
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:Season 1 of Arrow made little sense when Oliver Queen was killing folks so they ended up backstepping and making him stop killing dudes. Wasn't that character advancement, not the correction of a writing mistake? He murdered because that's how he was taught on ninja island, then learned better while working with people in not-Gotham. SolidSnakesBandana posted:I agree completely. Flash's super prison is some crazy poo poo. They had to ban the TVIV thread from talking about it.
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Aug 19, 2016 22:57
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Sir Kodiak posted:
No lunch Gitmo ruined that thread.
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Aug 19, 2016 23:01
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Chairman Capone posted:Is that actually Peter Serafinowicz's voice in The Tick? He's absolutely nailing Patrick Warburton if so. Yeah it's pretty awesome, don't forget to vote for it to go to series!
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Aug 19, 2016 23:02
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Sir Kodiak posted:Wasn't that character advancement, not the correction of a writing mistake? He murdered because that's how he was taught on ninja island, then learned better while working with people in not-Gotham. yeah all of season 2 is basically about how this one time ollie decided killing a former ally and further feeding into the animosity between the two of them was better than saving him and how that comes back to bite him in the rear end 5 years later it ruled and cw superhero shows have been downhill ever since
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Aug 19, 2016 23:15
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Sir Kodiak posted:Wasn't that character advancement, not the correction of a writing mistake? He murdered because that's how he was taught on ninja island, then learned better while working with people in not-Gotham. They explained it that way but thats not how it comes across when you watch it. It's also right around the time they started calling him Green Arrow and hamfisted a way into calling it Star City, both steps that felt like writer corrections.
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Aug 20, 2016 01:21
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those weren't 'writer corrections', it was really obvious from the beginning that they were playing a long-form thing where ollie starts as some rando vigilante who can't be trusted but eventually becomes more important to the city and trusted as time goes on a green arrow 'origin story', if you will
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Aug 20, 2016 01:26
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I think you're giving the writers way too much credit here.
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Aug 20, 2016 01:43
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:It's also right around the time they started calling him Green Arrow and hamfisted a way into calling it Star City, both steps that felt like writer corrections. That was like a season or two later.
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Aug 20, 2016 01:46
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and i think you're giving them not enough! what i'm positing isn't that outlandish or ambitious for a superhero tv show's script, it's pretty stock and in-theme with the show being about ollie trying to find a balance between danger island survival mode and doing what's good for the city he cares about (whether they kept being successful at working those themes during later seasons is a whole other conversation though)
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Aug 20, 2016 01:49
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also; the thing about 'writers corrections' being the impetuous force behind those changes in ollie's character leaves the implication of a world where there were actually a noticable amount of people going 'not MY green arrow' over ollie killing people in season 1
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Aug 20, 2016 01:52
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I don't think anyone gave a poo poo about Oliver killing people in Arrow and I have seen a lot of Arrow fans complaining about him not killing people anymore, among many other things... I do not appreciate it when comic book stories hyperfocus on the no-kill rule issue because it is not very interesting to get so involved with the in universe mechanics of the story and it's been played out, especially with Batman. When Batman killed people in BvS it was a huge relief and it owned.
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Aug 20, 2016 01:56
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