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 What a way to start a page. Found in the depths of the internet.
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Sep 6, 2016 21:29
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A planet has an ancient holy site staffed by a holy order, and its not there territory? That just isn't how that works mate, if they're on the planet its theirs. At best the Andorians can refuse to recognise their claim, but that would just be diplomatic grandstanding like the world not recognising Turkish Cyprus because the reality is that the planet is occupied by the Vulcans. But then there beef with the Vulcans would be the existence of the temple because that is what's giving the Vulcans a foothold on a planet very close to their homeworld, never mind what they might be hiding in the cellar. Unless those monks did a Maquis and renounced their citizenship there a de facto Vulcan colony. quote:If the planet were an actual part of Vulcan controlled space, it would have been protected with ships and troops, and the Andorian incursions would have been serious acts of war. That it was left undefended implies it was relying on a special status with the Andorians, that the Vulcans abused. Why would it be defended if its supposed to be an innocent retreat for a handful of monks? Unless it has strategic value it would be illogical to commit resources to defend it surely. Seems like a pretty good way to draw attention to something that's supposed to be a secret.
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Sep 6, 2016 21:58
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Cojawfee posted:Why didn't they use it? Were they not allowed to use the Runabout set from DS9? Apparently it never got used because they didn't want to 'diminish the effect' of the Captain's Yacht from Insurrection. Fun fact: the Enterprise D was supposed to have a Captain's Yacht, but it was never used. I guess a shuttle docked in the underside of the saucer was something they really wanted to do but only were able to do it in Insurrection?
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Sep 6, 2016 21:59
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Baka-nin posted:A planet has an ancient holy site staffed by a holy order, and its not there territory? That just isn't how that works mate, if they're on the planet its theirs. At best the Andorians can refuse to recognise their claim It's a power thing. The ancient Vulcans sent out a monk colony, but they don't have the ability to project enough force there to protect it. The Andorians do, so it is within their sphere of influence. It has nothing to do with just being there or people could just sneak into enemy territory and set up camp and be all like "sorry this is our territory now get out" which is silly.
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Sep 6, 2016 22:08
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Baka-nin posted:A planet has an ancient holy site staffed by a holy order, and its not there territory? That just isn't how that works mate, if they're on the planet its theirs. At best the Andorians can refuse to recognise their claim, but that would just be diplomatic grandstanding like the world not recognising Turkish Cyprus because the reality is that the planet is occupied by the Vulcans. That's not how territory really works. A tiny outpost on an otherwise unclaimed planet does not imply the entire planet belongs to Vulcans. The first settlement on the American continents did not claim the whole thing. quote:Why would it be defended if its supposed to be an innocent retreat for a handful of monks? Unless it has strategic value it would be illogical to commit resources to defend it surely. Because you defend your territory. That's what makes it yours. If you don't defend it, it isn't yours by any standard that matters. If it were inside their territory, it might be defended by a border elsewhere. But the planet was clearly a border world.
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Sep 6, 2016 22:15
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eth0.n posted:The first settlement on the American continents did not claim the whole thing. Maybe that wasn't the thought at first, but it didn't take long for manifest destiny to be a leading mindset in North America -- it was 25 years after the signing of the Declaration of Independence that John Quincy Adams was promulgating the idea that the whole of the continent ought to be under the control of the Union. Timby fucked around with this message at 22:36 on Sep 6, 2016 |
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Sep 6, 2016 22:34
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Veotax posted:Apparently it never got used because they didn't want to 'diminish the effect' of the Captain's Yacht from Insurrection. Yeah, there's a lot of hardware stuff we (almost) never see because the budgets were too small and they didn't like messing with the sets and models. It's not just saucer separation, the Captain's Yacht, or the Aeroshuttle. It's also Cetacean Ops, an Arboretum that's bigger than that one room, all the other transporter rooms that don't have O'Brien, etc. Or, take DS9's Promenade, it feels big for a Star Trek set, but really it's pretty tiny and the layout doesn't make sense with the apparent size and configuration of the station. There are all these shops we never see, so it's implied to be bigger, but the stuff we do see is apparently right in the middle (Quark's bar is at the center of the station, but the Orb shrine gets a crappy little alcove, really?). Seeing all those Bajoran worshipers "parading" down a promenade that's basically just a circle shorter than a football field is hilarious. The promenade is supposed to travel around the station's core, and said core appears to be roughly the size of a galaxy class, so all I can figure is that what we see is like some sort of "inner" promenade and there's another, appropriately sized, stretch of promenade that we never see.
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Sep 6, 2016 22:34
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Well I just use my imagination to fill in the rest of the gaps I liked that they decorated the DS9 set in various ways over the course of the show so it felt alive
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Sep 6, 2016 22:39
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Other than being on the inside of the curve, what gives the impression that Quark's is at the center of the station? I never got that impression.
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Sep 6, 2016 22:41
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I bag on Herman Zimmerman quite a bit (much of his later Star Trek work, especially in the movies, was just lazy as hell, and him botching the initial design and build of Stellar Cartography for Generations was a huge sink on that film's effects budget), but I do have to give him credit for how creative he and his team got when it came to making DS9's sets feel much larger than they actually were, with the Promenade being one of the biggest examples.
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Sep 6, 2016 22:45
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eth0.n posted:That's not how territory really works. A tiny outpost on an otherwise unclaimed planet does not imply the entire planet belongs to Vulcans. The first settlement on the American continents did not claim the whole thing. Yeah, Japan didn't stop claiming The religious element is also interesting because real countries will often tolerate foreign religious sects in their territory in order to maintain relations and spies posing as pilgrims is a real thing. Borders shift, but sacred sites don't stop being sacred, so concessions have to be made. Remember that one of the main pretexts for the Crusades was that Christians had been (briefly) barred from visiting Jerusalem and the Church of the Holy Sepulcher.
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Sep 6, 2016 22:50
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Timby posted:Maybe that wasn't the thought at first, but it didn't take long for manifest destiny to be a leading mindset in North America -- it was 25 years after the signing of the Declaration of Independence that John Quincy Adams was promulgating the idea that the whole of the continent ought to be under the control of the Union. Yes, but what actually mattered was when we had the power to take, control, and defend that territory. Anything else was just words.
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Sep 6, 2016 22:59
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Trent posted:Other than being on the inside of the curve, what gives the impression that Quark's is at the center of the station? I never got that impression. Well, it's in the middle of the promenade set and the promenade is supposed to go around the heart of the station, so it winds up feeling like the central point. The Orb shrine, Keiko's school, and Odo and Bashir's offices are all supposed to be important places central to station life and they're on the outside of that same ring while the bar is in the only thing we see at the hub of the ring. We can imagine that the promenade is bigger than it looks (and it does seem to have multiple levels) and that there are other shops and facilities in the core section that we never see, but the size and placement of Quark's bar still makes it seem like it's pretty central to station life. It also appears to be directly below Ops.
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Sep 6, 2016 23:15
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 I always thought Quark's was on the outside of the promenade ring, but I guess the lack of windows should have indicated that it wasn't.
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Sep 6, 2016 23:21
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eth0.n posted:That's not how territory really works. A tiny outpost on an otherwise unclaimed planet does not imply the entire planet belongs to Vulcans. The first settlement on the American continents did not claim the whole thing. No it really is, unless someone else has a counterclaim on another part of a territory the claim is for all vacant territory, or as much as the colonists want to claim. This is literally how Imperialism worked in Africa. A small settlement used to make a claim on a vast territory, and once that was done a slow process of expansion and exploitation. Belgian troops did not occupy every square kilometre of the Congo wen King Leopold established the colony. Your example isn't applicable because most of the world that was colonised wasn't actually empty, and yes sometimes they were used as an excuse to gobble up the whole thing. Most carribbean islands were declared totally under the control of the coloniser after the first port was established. The only exceptions were when more then one power established itself at the same time, like the island of Hispaniola. And no, ownership is not dependent upon military force. If that were the case Costa Rica wouldn't exist since it has no military. Neither do many island states and yet there claims aren't often aren't disputed. You defend a territory when you have a reason to defend it not because its "yours" that's a massive waste of resources. Trent posted:It's a power thing. The ancient Vulcans sent out a monk colony, but they don't have the ability to project enough force there to protect it. The Andorians do, so it is within their sphere of influence. It has nothing to do with just being there or people could just sneak into enemy territory and set up camp and be all like "sorry this is our territory now get out" which is silly. Huh? that isn't silly that's an occupation. It happens all the time.
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Sep 6, 2016 23:22
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Timby posted:Maybe that wasn't the thought at first, but it didn't take long for manifest destiny to be a leading mindset in North America -- it was 25 years after the signing of the Declaration of Independence that John Quincy Adams was promulgating the idea that the whole of the continent ought to be under the control of the Union. Three hundred years counts as "taking long" in my book. And is significantly less than exerting de facto and de jure control than a whole planet.
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Sep 6, 2016 23:42
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I knew Quarks was on the inside curve of the ring, my issue was with the implication that it was basically the entirety of the inside curve. It's still the biggest thing on the promenade, though, apparently.Baka-nin posted:
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Sep 6, 2016 23:50
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This should be solvable by simple context clues. The attack on the temple doesn't result in a war and it's only defense-the only defense in the area at all-is the holy site disguise. QED the temple exists under Vulcan control purely by the grace of Andoria considering it a sacred site for the Vulcans, and it goes straight out the window when they realize what it's being used for. It'd be like if during the Cold War the USA set up a spy headquarters in, I dunno, Romania, on the basis that it was a hospital.
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Sep 7, 2016 00:00
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I love that "The Trouble with Tribbles" has a disc to itself in the TOS box set. Complete with both sequels. TAS in high-definition, at last.
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Sep 7, 2016 00:16
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Trent posted:I knew Quarks was on the inside curve of the ring, my issue was with the implication that it was basically the entirety of the inside curve. It's still the biggest thing on the promenade, though, apparently. No, it really is the only thing inside the ring rather than just along it. Everything else listed there is just a little kiosk sticking out into the corridor (and weren't really shown). Quark's is the only thing that extends in past the turbolifts (and bulkheads presumably) and the only shop that's actually situated under Ops. Plus, I'm not sure if we can really trust the scale of that map. It gives a bunch of empty space around Quark's but I don't think the ring was actually as big as they're making it out to be and it always seemed like Quark's bar filled the entire middle part of the set.
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Sep 7, 2016 00:33
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I think that diagram is from the old Official Star Trek Magazine. So even if it's not true to the physical set, that diagram shows the Promenade as intended.
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Sep 7, 2016 00:36
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Every time you see Quark's, it looks like it is on the inside of the ring. Especially when Jake and Nog are in their spots on the second floor. The bar is in front of them and the outer windows are behind them.
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Sep 7, 2016 00:45
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Trent posted:I knew Quarks was on the inside curve of the ring, my issue was with the implication that it was basically the entirety of the inside curve. It's still the biggest thing on the promenade, though, apparently. Actually it does, to occupy something means to take control of it through physical force. And no that doesn't automatically mean military force, it means physical presence. Every year French fisherman occupy an island in the channel that is British territory. Usually the authorities wait them out or send the police to evict them. If the fisherman stayed and the authorities couldn't be bothered to evict them that time they would be occupying that territory. Also Eretz Israel was founded by Jewish farmers occupying land to establish agriculture communes in Palestine, and usually against the wishes of their neighbours. Eventually this coalition of Kibbutz and villages grew into the nation state of Israel.
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Sep 7, 2016 00:45
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Big Mean Jerk posted:I think that diagram is from the old Official Star Trek Magazine. So even if it's not true to the physical set, that diagram shows the Promenade as intended. Yeah, no argument here. If anything, you're just reinforcing my initial point that the technical specs and implied space are usually a far cry from what we actually see on camera. I still think it's hilarious though that even in the official specs, the commercial and social heart of a station of thousands is still just a couple dozen tiny shops and offices and one big rear end bar that dwarfs even the public replimat. Quark really hit the jackpot in terms of location.
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Sep 7, 2016 00:47
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Well the station was designed as a slave labour camp in space. Really the only commerce should have been the garrison and a few bureaucrats and wealthy collaborators. Not much call for anything else apart from a bar and a mess hall. Most of the rest of the population were disposable slaves who seem to have been crammed in there.
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Sep 7, 2016 00:51
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Baka-nin posted:Also Eretz Israel was founded by Jewish farmers occupying land to establish agriculture communes in Palestine, and usually against the wishes of their neighbours. Eventually this coalition of Kibbutz and villages grew into the nation state of Israel. I hope you're not implying that force wasn't involved in that one. The founding of Israel is basically settler colonialism 101 and wouldn't have been possible if the ruling power (the UK) hadn't supported the endeavor.
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Sep 7, 2016 00:56
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Yeah, the promenade is supposed to be the r&r area of Terok Nor, so it has a bar, a clinic, there are some docking ports so the cardies don't have to go through the worker sections, an eatery, and some lovely, probably overpriced stores where you can get a Terok Nor sweatshirt for only 39 slips of latinum!
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Sep 7, 2016 01:00
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WickedHate posted:The holodeck/suite is a lie. It's actually powered by enslaved Q's and literally transports people to newly created world that fits their specifications. and that's why Voyager can keep the holodecks going but not the replicators.
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Sep 7, 2016 01:05
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Duckbag posted:I hope you're not implying that force wasn't involved in that one. The founding of Israel is basically settler colonialism 101 and wouldn't have been possible if the ruling power (the UK) hadn't supported the endeavor. No, but not every part of the original Eretz Israel was founded by militaristic conflict. In many early cases they were formed by collective action by agricultural labourers joining up there plots and buying up extra land, often pressuring their neighbours to go along with it through a host of means. The violent campaigns came later when they were able to form armed groups and believed they had an opportunity at establishing a full nation state.
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Sep 7, 2016 01:07
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Baka-nin posted:Yeah that only applies in an actual war. Its pretty simple attacking an air craft carrier is fair game but only in a state of war, you can't just have a submarine pop into the dock and sink it because its military hard ware, and you don't like that nations government. I got the sense that they were at war, or were at least in a very hot détente in a long period of war. But I'll just leave this whole point because I'll be goddamned if I'm going to let ENT tear this thread apart. OneThousandMonkeys posted:I myself enjoy targeting medical facilities with artillery in Company of Heroes 2. The red cross is a target. "Heroes" here used loosely.
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Sep 7, 2016 01:08
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So I've been doing a DS9 rewatch and my God the first two seasons are much better than I remember. Maybe I'm just older and enjoy the slower paced thinkier episodes more, I don't know. I've just seen the Maquis two parter, which was great btw, and reminded me how much Voyager squandered Maquis crewmembers. Anyway I was wondering if anyone knew if Cal Hudson never appearing again was a purposeful choice (perhaps because of his superbad acting). It just seemed like they were setting him up to be the face of the Maquis and he never appears again, as I recall.
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Sep 7, 2016 01:29
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Baka-nin posted:No, but not every part of the original Eretz Israel was founded by militaristic conflict. In many early cases they were formed by collective action by agricultural labourers joining up there plots and buying up extra land, often pressuring their neighbours to go along with it through a host of means. The violent campaigns came later when they were able to form armed groups and believed they had an opportunity at establishing a full nation state. The situation is quite different though, because Palestine was already an occupied nation. The settlers may not have (always) used force, but the British did when they seized the territory from the Ottoman empire and sent soldiers and police to occupy it. It was that British presence (as well as frequent direct support) that allowed for large-scale Jewish migration as well as the seizure/buy out of land from Palestinians. Without an occupying power allowing the Jewish settlers to acquire land on favorable terms (and providing security for those settlements), the whole Zionist project could never have gotten off the ground. The militarization of the Jewish communities corresponded with the withdrawal of UK troops from Palestine. The monopoly on force may have shifted from the colonial power to the settlers, but the presence of a military to defend the settlements was always an essential factor.
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Sep 7, 2016 01:31
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Trent posted:I knew Quarks was on the inside curve of the ring, my issue was with the implication that it was basically the entirety of the inside curve. It's still the biggest thing on the promenade, though, apparently.
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Sep 7, 2016 02:25
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Railing Kill posted:I got the sense that they were at war, or were at least in a very hot détente in a long period of war. But I'll just leave this whole point because I'll be goddamned if I'm going to let ENT tear this thread apart. The Andorian/Vulcan situation devolves into a military incident less than a year later. It's pretty damned hot. Also can we please not take this thread down the unstable wormhole that is Israel. That's a bigger can of worms than TNG saying the IRA were just freedom fighters.
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Sep 7, 2016 02:37
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Moses was a worm hole alien
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Sep 7, 2016 02:46
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Baronjutter posted:Moses was a worm hole alien Absurd. You can't use past tense for the Prophets.
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Sep 7, 2016 03:17
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Duckbag posted:No, it really is the only thing inside the ring rather than just along it. Everything else listed there is just a little kiosk sticking out into the corridor (and weren't really shown). Quark's is the only thing that extends in past the turbolifts (and bulkheads presumably) and the only shop that's actually situated under Ops. Plus, I'm not sure if we can really trust the scale of that map. It gives a bunch of empty space around Quark's but I don't think the ring was actually as big as they're making it out to be and it always seemed like Quark's bar filled the entire middle part of the set. I assume there's something on the other side we just never saw because we only saw the cool bit of the promenade.
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Sep 7, 2016 03:34
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https://www.engadget.com/2016/09/06/star-treks-iconic-computer-voice-may-live-on-in-your-phone/ They apparently phonetically sampled Majel Barrett's voice before she died so that she could live on being the computer for the future of Star Trek.
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Sep 7, 2016 03:35
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All I want is a Federation computer Siri voice. No disrespect to Susan Bennett.
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Sep 7, 2016 03:46
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Lipset and Rock On posted:So I've been doing a DS9 rewatch and my God the first two seasons are much better than I remember. Maybe I'm just older and enjoy the slower paced thinkier episodes more, I don't know. DS9 is really great, and the fact that season 1 is inarguably its weakest season is a very solid bit of praise. For every off-beat episode there there's a lot of good, slow-burning character building and it establishes itself so well that by the time it hits Season 2 it never stops picking up speed.
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Sep 7, 2016 03:54
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