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WrenP-Complete posted:What would an actual "reasonable" number of rounds be? (not trying to start gun chat!) Is this an order of magnitude or two more than would be expected? It was a bird sanctuary right? Maybe they were worried about running into one of these guys .
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Sep 28, 2016 02:09
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Nocturtle posted:It was a bird sanctuary right? Maybe they were worried about running into one of these guys . I was thinking that, given their evident grasp on the English language, they misread "Refuge" as "Refugee" and were expecting to pwn some Syrians or something.
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Sep 28, 2016 02:13
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Nocturtle posted:It was a bird sanctuary right? Maybe they were worried about running into one of these guys . When you think about it, birds are really dinosaurs, so if you don’t come loaded for those, you’re aren’t prepared.
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Sep 28, 2016 02:23
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Rockin Orthodontist posted:Hey, we don't know that. Maybe the ones who left their guns behind were felons who weren't supposed to have guns, and were afraid of being searched during their exit. Totally different fear. Which we already know a few were
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Sep 28, 2016 02:40
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didnt they also shoot a whole bunch of it into a pond or something
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Sep 28, 2016 02:45
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Parallel Paraplegic posted:Is "United States of American, and does 1-100" a typo or a sov cit thing I can't even tell The does thing is probably just lazy. Its normally John/Jane Doe 1-100 and it refers to any number of unknown defendants to be named during or after I think discovery.
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Sep 28, 2016 02:53
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XMNN posted:didnt they also shoot a whole bunch of it into a pond or something I just kind of assumed that a significant chunk of the terrain/local wildlife ended up full of bullets.
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Sep 28, 2016 02:53
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red19fire posted:Someone who's good at economics please help my family is dying
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Sep 28, 2016 03:28
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Azathoth posted:Take this as coming from someone who hasn't ever even handled a gun, let alone participated in an armed occupation of federal land, but when I read the list of evidence, it seems like they had ammunition spread all over the place. Like, in envelopes or loose in drawers and whatnot, and I just can't understand how it would get like that. It seems like they made a deliberate attempt to stash random bullets everywhere, but I can't see what good it would do, even to a bunch of gun-crazed nutjobs. Any insight into what their freedom-addled brains were doing? It indicates their plans and preparations were heavily influenced by PS1-era Resident Evil games.
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Sep 28, 2016 03:45
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I'm standing outside on the sidewalk with a civil rights lawyer friend with subluxated ribs who is calling uncle about reading and explaining these filings because he is laughing so hard. We have no mercy. Fake edit: the filing did not cause the rib injury.
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Sep 28, 2016 04:21
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red19fire posted:In Iraq, I was issued 180 rounds, I think that's the standard because it's like 5-6 full magazines. For an estimated 40 people, that's about 250 rounds per person, excessive but not outside the realm of possibility. The difference is that the occupiers had all kinds of different weapons of different calibers, from assault rifles to hunting rifles to pistols, so it would be a logistical nightmare to keep them supplied. I think one guy had a musket (because he was a felon and it's not an illegal firearm for him), one guy had an old timey six shooter. Just thinking logistically, few thousand rounds is what you'd use for a major action. Looking at an old Guerrilla Warfare manual put out by the army in the early 60s, they would drop 200lbs. pallets with 20 M-2 .30 carbines (as an individual weapon), along with 60 30-round magazines and 3,200 rounds of ammo, with another 6,400 .30 carbine rounds available in an separate airdrop pallet. That would easily get you around 10,000, enough to supply a small 20-man army quickly.
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Sep 28, 2016 04:29
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WrenP-Complete posted:What about the claim that they were (verbing) hostile adverse possession? Adverse possession can't work in this situation for like a dozen reasons, but the "hostile" part doesn't require guns, it just means the previous owner of the land can't have let the people be there. I think occupation via threat of force would actually nullify an otherwise valid adverse possession claim (which, again, these guys didn't remotely have).
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Sep 28, 2016 04:46
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Discendo Vox posted:Adverse possession can't work in this situation for like a dozen reasons, but the "hostile" part doesn't require guns, it just means the previous owner of the land can't have let the people be there. I think occupation via threat of force would actually nullify an otherwise valid adverse possession claim (which, again, these guys didn't remotely have). Yeah my attorney friend is saying also it would have to be a much longer period of time. Edit: 20 years. WrenP-Complete has issued a correction as of 04:51 on Sep 28, 2016 |
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Sep 28, 2016 04:48
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Azathoth posted:Take this as coming from someone who hasn't ever even handled a gun, let alone participated in an armed occupation of federal land, but when I read the list of evidence, it seems like they had ammunition spread all over the place. Like, in envelopes or loose in drawers and whatnot, and I just can't understand how it would get like that. It seems like they made a deliberate attempt to stash random bullets everywhere, but I can't see what good it would do, even to a bunch of gun-crazed nutjobs. Any insight into what their freedom-addled brains were doing? I haven't shot guns or gone hunting for a decade and a half. But reading about the random stuff left lying around the refuge, my guess is less that they were genius siege defense planners, and more that they were incompetent yokels who just left live ammunition lying around in unsecured places all over. It's not hard to leave live rounds in bad places that you shouldn't (I've done it), but storing extra bullets in letter envelopes and rolling around in desk drawers is indeed as bad as it sounds. In my experience this does not prove that any of them are smart, though.
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Sep 28, 2016 04:54
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Azathoth posted:Take this as coming from someone who hasn't ever even handled a gun, let alone participated in an armed occupation of federal land, but when I read the list of evidence, it seems like they had ammunition spread all over the place. Like, in envelopes or loose in drawers and whatnot, and I just can't understand how it would get like that. It seems like they made a deliberate attempt to stash random bullets everywhere, but I can't see what good it would do, even to a bunch of gun-crazed nutjobs. Any insight into what their freedom-addled brains were doing? It's an insight into what their freedom-addled brains weren't doing. The "bullets crammed into literally everything" coupled with their utter lack of other preparation shows that they just didn't think about logistics. Their guns were totems and little more; they were disorganized idiots about the whole thing in every way imaginable. WrenP-Complete posted:Yeah my attorney friend is saying also it would have to be a much longer period of time. That and "adverse possession" is also known as "squatter's rights;" absentee landlords are kind of a problem. The timeline actually varies from state to state but what they were doing, far as I know (standard "I'm not a lawyer" disclaimer goes here), wasn't adverse possession in any way, shape, or form. Basically with adverse possession if you use a property for long enough without anybody telling you not to it just kind of becomes yours. If somebody can't even be assed to watch their stuff for a decade or two they probably don't care about it and aren't using it. I'm pretty sure these guys were told to leave multiple times. They may have "lived" there long enough to get tenant's rights but that kind of goes out the window in light of them literally being armed insurrectionists trying to tear down the federal government.
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Sep 28, 2016 05:13
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Azathoth posted:Take this as coming from someone who hasn't ever even handled a gun, let alone participated in an armed occupation of federal land, but when I read the list of evidence, it seems like they had ammunition spread all over the place. Like, in envelopes or loose in drawers and whatnot, and I just can't understand how it would get like that. It seems like they made a deliberate attempt to stash random bullets everywhere, but I can't see what good it would do, even to a bunch of gun-crazed nutjobs. Any insight into what their freedom-addled brains were doing? Idle hands are the devil's playground. I'm guessing most of he ammo started in ammo cans but a month with nothing to do but clean your guns and load/unload magazines probably ended up littering bullets all over every room, tent and ditch on the refuge.
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Sep 28, 2016 05:18
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Captain_Maclaine posted:It indicates their plans and preparations were heavily influenced by PS1-era Resident Evil games. This is hilarious.
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Sep 28, 2016 05:32
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ToxicSlurpee posted:It's an insight into what their freedom-addled brains weren't doing. The "bullets crammed into literally everything" coupled with their utter lack of other preparation shows that they just didn't think about logistics. Their guns were totems and little more; they were disorganized idiots about the whole thing in every way imaginable. I'm pretty sure I remember reading they left evidence of their lifestyle all over the place, inside and out. There would have been spoiled food, tobacco products, beverage containers, mud, pocket constitutions, etc, strewn everywhere. In that context finding guns and ammo shouldn't be surprising at all.
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Sep 28, 2016 05:32
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ToxicSlurpee posted:It's an insight into what their freedom-addled brains weren't doing. The "bullets crammed into literally everything" coupled with their utter lack of other preparation shows that they just didn't think about logistics. Their guns were totems and little more; they were disorganized idiots about the whole thing in every way imaginable. I worked a stint in the mortgage industry, and know that the whole "squatter's rights" laws of Oregon are among the more restrictive in the country. Basically for "Adverse Possession" here you have to move into a vacant property, get utilities and such started in your name, occupy the place for a significant of time (looks like 10 years from a quick search) and the actual landowner has to know and disapprove of this action. The whole thing can be stopped by starting an eviction process from what I can see. http://www.ehow.com/how_6188078_file-squatter_s-rights-oregon.html
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Sep 28, 2016 05:40
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Would the laws of Oregon apply in this case or some federal law?
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Sep 28, 2016 05:45
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I keep about 20 loose 7.62x39 rounds in a sock stuffed inside my computer Just in case
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Sep 28, 2016 05:52
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WrenP-Complete posted:Would the laws of Oregon apply in this case or some federal law? Federal law. But these clowns with argue Oregon law because sov cit mumbo jumbo. Basically open, notorious, and hostile means that everyone knows you're doing it and no one cares enough to do anything about it. Generally, if someone tries to do something about it in the 10-30 years required, you're basically done (you can't just kill the owner, bury his body in the back and wait 10 years), so the guns reflect less an attempt to squat than an attempt to take property by force aka robbery.
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Sep 28, 2016 05:56
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Lutha Mahtin posted:I haven't shot guns or gone hunting for a decade and a half. But reading about the random stuff left lying around the refuge, my guess is less that they were genius siege defense planners, and more that they were incompetent yokels who just left live ammunition lying around in unsecured places all over. It's not hard to leave live rounds in bad places that you shouldn't (I've done it), but storing extra bullets in letter envelopes and rolling around in desk drawers is indeed as bad as it sounds. In my experience this does not prove that any of them are smart, though. Someone pointed out that random other nutjobs were probably also mailing them a few bullets here and there to "help" so that's probably some of them, the ones found in envelopes anyway. The rest is just them treating their guns like toys and playing load-unload while sitting around bored. My gf is into guns and I'm not terribly comfortable with them so I'm really emphatic that all ammunition is kept in a locked ammo can in our closet and never ever leaves that can until it gets to the range. I'd probably have a stroke if there were just loose bullets lying around the house everywhere like that 
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Sep 28, 2016 06:22
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CaptainSarcastic posted:I worked a stint in the mortgage industry, and know that the whole "squatter's rights" laws of Oregon are among the more restrictive in the country. Basically for "Adverse Possession" here you have to move into a vacant property, get utilities and such started in your name, occupy the place for a significant of time (looks like 10 years from a quick search) and the actual landowner has to know and disapprove of this action. The whole thing can be stopped by starting an eviction process from what I can see. Wait so what happens if they approve of you...
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Sep 28, 2016 06:24
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Parallel Paraplegic posted:Wait so what happens if they approve of you... Then you're what they call a tenant.
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Sep 28, 2016 06:29
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Parallel Paraplegic posted:Not that I want to defend the drone program or anything but isn't that like, most military operations that involve killing people? Oh yeah, but I was comparing it to conventional bomber pilots, who are (with the possible exception of A-10 etc gunships) the manned-aircraft drone-equivalent. You're probably not going to apply ground troops to the same situations you apply flying death robots. That's much of the point of flying death robots.
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Sep 28, 2016 07:46
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MariusLecter posted:I keep about 20 loose 7.62x39 rounds in a sock stuffed inside my computer communist spotted
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Sep 28, 2016 11:51
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VikingSkull posted:communist spotted It's his cum sock. It takes a lot to get him off...
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Sep 28, 2016 12:22
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I shouldn't talk, the only "scary" firearm I own is chambered in 7.62x39 lol
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Sep 28, 2016 13:52
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Parallel Paraplegic posted:Someone pointed out that random other nutjobs were probably also mailing them a few bullets here and there to "help" so that's probably some of them, the ones found in envelopes anyway. The rest is just them treating their guns like toys and playing load-unload while sitting around bored. my brother leaves bullets laying around and also has small children so his children play with bullets like they were toys that is my story about irresponsible bullet stowage, thank you
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Sep 28, 2016 15:17
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Mirthless posted:Idle hands are the devil's playground. I tend to think the random ammo scattered about is the remains of what people took when they ran. Few rounds in a drawer are left from the frantic scoop of all the others that were in there too. The ones in envelopes, I wonder if those were like special suicide rounds. Like in their fantasy world if they got hammered down to the last holdout, the envelopes came out for that last plug in their brains. Granted they likely thought they'd never have to, but it was something else to fantasize over and show the other idiots how awesomely willing you were to GO DOWN IN A BLAZE OF GLORY WrenP-Complete posted:Would the laws of Oregon apply in this case or some federal law? Federal land, federal law. That's why it's always a bad idea to do criminal acts on/in federal property VikingSkull posted:I shouldn't talk, the only "scary" firearm I own is chambered in 7.62x39 lol 7.62x54 is where it's at, son. A man uses a man sized cartridge SocketWrench has issued a correction as of 15:48 on Sep 28, 2016 |
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Sep 28, 2016 15:41
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SocketWrench posted:I tend to think the random ammo scattered about is the remains of what people took when they ran. Few rounds in a drawer are left from the frantic scoop of all the others that were in there too. 1. So with M-16 and Uzi (which are the only guns I am at all familiar with) if you hit the back of the round hard enough, even if the round isn't chambered, it can cause an explosion and damage. Is this also true of the rounds that were left there? 2. If this is also true, is there any kind of cause of action even if no explosion occurred? Or is it only if someone was hurt that it would be a legal problem? Are civil and criminal laws different on this point?
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Sep 28, 2016 15:57
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WrenP-Complete posted:2. If this is also true, is there any kind of cause of action even if no explosion occurred? Or is it only if someone was hurt that it would be a legal problem? Are civil and criminal laws different on this point? I doubt it, there are lots of things that fall into the "This is dangerous if you hit it with a hammer" category. e: Made me think of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qVvpKkYchw&t=114s
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Sep 28, 2016 16:00
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WrenP-Complete posted:Okay last two gun law related questions from me, I think. I don't know this vocabulary in English that well, so please forgive any errors. You have to hit a bullet pretty direct with a hammer to get it to discharge and there's really not much it can do. There's not a ton of gunpowder in most bullets and without the barrel to compress the explosion they don't generally generate a tremendous amount of force. I'm sure it's possible to get hurt this way, but it would be a freak accident if it happened, not a likely occurrence.
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Sep 28, 2016 16:15
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WrenP-Complete posted:Okay last two gun law related questions from me, I think. I don't know this vocabulary in English that well, so please forgive any errors. If you hit the primer of any round hard enough it's going to discharge. Same thing if you do something stupid like throw it in the fire like a friend of mine did at boyscout camp. The brass/steel case isn't strong enough to contain the gas expansion from the burning powder without the support of the chamber walls, so it won't shoot the bullet, it'll just pop like a soda can, just more dramatic and probably with some shrapnel. The chance of it happening by accident just rolling around in a desk drawer or hanging out in a ziploc baggie are slim to none, it's pretty much something you'd need to do intentionally. People buy and store ammo in bulk in metal ammo cans, plastic buckets and sometime even ziploc bags all the time and it's not really a risk at all. CommanderApaul has issued a correction as of 16:26 on Sep 28, 2016 |
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Sep 28, 2016 16:24
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Mirthless posted:You have to hit a bullet pretty direct with a hammer to get it to discharge and there's really not much it can do. There's not a ton of gunpowder in most bullets and without the barrel to compress the explosion they don't generally generate a tremendous amount of force. I'm sure it's possible to get hurt this way, but it would be a freak accident if it happened, not a likely occurrence. Someone in the army tried to use a .50 cal machine gun bullet as a hammer, hitting with the primer end at whatever he was trying to do when the round went off. He only got to keep about half of his hand, the pics are as nasty as you'd expect (they were taken pre-surgery). Here's a link to a pic of the resulting safety bulletin: WARNING:   http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/m2-50-caliber-machine-gun-rock-hand-explosion-memo.jpg e: this is with a .50 cal machine bullet, the largest bullet in service (outside of things mounted on vehicles). This is the upper end of injury from a bullet going off, unless you somehow got your hands on (  ) a mk19 round, or an explosive 25mm/300mm like bradleys, apaches or A10s shoot.
Icon Of Sin has issued a correction as of 16:29 on Sep 28, 2016 |
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Sep 28, 2016 16:25
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Mirthless posted:I'm sure it's possible to get hurt this way, but it would be a freak accident if it happened, not a likely occurrence. Thanks, all! I didn't know if ammunition alone was a particularly dangerous thing. Back to spicy sov citizenshipery.
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Sep 28, 2016 16:27
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WrenP-Complete posted:Thanks, all! I didn't know if ammunition alone was a particularly dangerous thing. Actually before we get off this topic, is ammo particularly dangerous in a fire? In addition to "it must stay in a can in the closet" I also like to have it pointed at the exterior wall just in case we have a house fire and it starts cooking off so as to not accidentally murder a firefighter, but my gf is pretty sure it wouldn't even make it through the (metal) can.
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Sep 28, 2016 16:30
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Parallel Paraplegic posted:Actually before we get off this topic, is ammo particularly dangerous in a fire? In addition to "it must stay in a can in the closet" I also like to have it pointed at the exterior wall just in case we have a house fire and it starts cooking off so as to not accidentally murder a firefighter, but my gf is pretty sure it wouldn't even make it through the (metal) can. Your level of fear is irrational. It can't generate enough pressure to escape the ammo can. At a family vacation property there has been ammunition kicking around loose in a junk drawer for as long as I can remember. My grandfather put it there when he lived there and he died a decade and a half ago. At that point it had been there at least 10 years, but probably much longer. It has not jumped up and killed anyone in that time.
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Sep 28, 2016 16:46
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therobit posted:Your level of fear is irrational. It can't generate enough pressure to escape the ammo can. Well okay, but therobit posted:At a family vacation property there has been ammunition kicking around loose in a junk drawer for as long as I can remember. My grandfather put it there when he lived there and he died a decade and a half ago. At that point it had been there at least 10 years, but probably much longer. It has not jumped up and killed anyone in that time. Obviously it's not going to do anything by itself under normal circumstances, I just don't want "my house is burning down" to become "my house is burning down and also I've blown up a firefighter trying to save me" or something like that.
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Sep 28, 2016 17:17
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