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One reason why LOTR set design is superior is that it feels lived in. There is implied history and culture. There is a story to the set. In the prequels the exaggerated set pieces exist in a vacuum. A shallow spectacle that exists for no other reason than to just exist. They were dreamt up to be nothing more than shallow eye candy to manufacture spectacle. Shoving poo poo in my fave to force a reaction or feeling. No subtlety. No detail. The locations in LOTR are very much a character. Like Chicagoland in Blues Brothers. Or NYC in Ghostbusters. The prequels lack this. Phi230 fucked around with this message at 15:04 on Oct 17, 2016 |
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Oct 17, 2016 15:02
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Phi230 posted:One reason why LOTR set design is superior is that it feels lived in. There is implied history and culture. There is a story to the set. So are you going to post some more screencaps with MSPaint red lines on them like your pitiful Rule of Thirds post? Please do that again, I need a laugh. Otherwise, this is just more Tezzor-feels with no substance.
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Oct 17, 2016 15:05
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Serf posted:So are you going to post some more screencaps with MSPaint red lines on them like your pitiful Rule of Thirds post? Please do that again, I need a laugh. I can feel the goalposts shifting
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Oct 17, 2016 15:06
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Phi230 posted:One reason why LOTR set design is superior is that it feels lived in. There is implied history and culture. There is a story to the set. You're quoting the making of documentaries. Which makes sense as you seem to expect all film to be documentary, with "realism" being more important than symbolism. Film is art, and should be interpreted not learned.
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Oct 17, 2016 15:08
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Phi230 posted:I can feel the goalposts shifting ...so then put them down?
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Oct 17, 2016 15:08
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Serf posted:Can you point out which posters are posting ironically? Also, who decides how far is "too far" when reading a script? I'm just curious as to whether or not there is some sort of international convention dealing with movie interpretations or if you're setting yourself up as the final authority. Equeen posted:Who talks like this Waffles Inc. posted:So anyone who likes the prequels is either: I don't mean to be a dick. I really enjoy lurking this thread, especially the new takes on Star Wars I would never have come up with myself.
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Oct 17, 2016 15:17
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Lampsacus posted:I will not trawl back through the thread but yeah. I'm pretty sure when people say the prequels were better than the Lord of the Rings films they are either being ironic or trolling. I mean, we're in the realm of subjective taste here so there aren't any final authorities. And I don't think there really is a 'too far' really. I find SMG, Cnuts and other posters deeper analysis of the Star Wars movies super fascinating! It's really intriguing how much you can pry from a scene. Consider me confused then, because you said the opposite here: Lampsacus posted:Whether its sincere or not, there is a contingent who defend it ironically. And some others have followed SMG down his rabbit hole, lubricated by smugness, where they have to read way too far into the scripts. It's astrology. Like a half hour ago. So which is it? Are people reading "too far" or does no such thing exist? 
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Oct 17, 2016 15:21
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Phi230 posted:One reason why LOTR set design is superior is that it feels lived in. There is implied history and culture. There is a story to the set. You don't think Kamino is a character? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dovd1clLJ4 How is Obi-Wan's approach and thus the establishing shots and in the information conveyed about who lives there and all of that any different (or worse as you imply) than, say, the three dudes getting to Rohan? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paA4D8qV9wY Both scenes are good. Both use the setting as a nice shorthand of preparing the audience what they're in for. In fact, these two scenes are a really great comparison tool because both Rohan and Kamino are both settings that are meant to be uneasy, foreign, disturbing and corrupt somehow. They both convey that sense very well, I think. Lampsacus posted:I will not trawl back through the thread but yeah. I'm pretty sure when people say the prequels were better than the Lord of the Rings films they are either being ironic or trolling. I don't want to be a dick or anything but like...no? I don't think anyone is being ironic nor trolling by making that comparison. Again, why do you dismiss the prequels in comparison to LOTR so easily? Why is it so incredible that some of us think the prequels are better that your brain immediately thinks it's being trolled? Again, I don't want to be a prick but that kinda says more about you than us doesn't it? Waffles Inc. fucked around with this message at 15:32 on Oct 17, 2016 |
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Oct 17, 2016 15:27
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Serf posted:Consider me confused then, because you said the opposite here:
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Oct 17, 2016 15:31
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There are good things about the prequels. Big ideas, great imagery, the score, and some pretty rad action. Then people speak the clumsiest dialogue or make constant decisions that come across as forced, unbelievable or just strange, characters that read as unlikeable who I have no wish to spend time with. Now, that's all visceral subjective stuff that's really hard to explore. The counter arguments all seem to revolve around the films having depths that can be explored and critiqued. I won't argue that. I'll happily accept that. I still find most of the prequels enormous slogs.
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Oct 17, 2016 15:42
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ShineDog posted:There are good things about the prequels. Big ideas, great imagery, the score, and some pretty rad action. Get the hell outta here with your nuance.
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Oct 17, 2016 15:46
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How do you guys handle buying Rogue One tickets? Are there alerts anywhere? Do we know what days they go on sale?
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Oct 17, 2016 16:07
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ShineDog posted:Then people speak the clumsiest dialogue or make constant decisions that come across as forced, unbelievable or just strange, characters that read as unlikeable who I have no wish to spend time with. In Lord of The Rings the characters do stuff like give a dwarf a bag of magic heroin and send him on a cross-continental journey - on foot - to sacrifice himself to a volcano god. This comes across as 'natural' and 'believable' because they do a lot to distract you from the topic. Everyone just takes it for granted that Gandalf and Aragorm are perfect authority figures, and that you should do what they say. The prequels constantly encourage you to examine what people are saying, and to question their motivations. When Obiwan says "sith lords are our speciality", he's really full of poo poo. So it points out Obiwan's character flaws, and it's funny. And of course there's the dramatic irony of Anakin eventually becoming a Sith Lord. If a Lord Of The Rings character dropped a line like "killing orcs is our specialty!", it would just mean like, yeah, the character enjoys killing orcs a lot. And you can already tell that because they're killing orcs effortlessly for months at a time.
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Oct 17, 2016 16:18
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Just a reminder that its totally possible to enjoy the prequels without having to dissect them or apply complex theories to them. There are many people outside of this thread(there's billions of them out there you know) that just enjoy the aesthetic of the prequels, or the action scenes, or any number of other things that are completely opinion based like everything else in film. Also, not everyone has a white hot opinion on the prequels, they don't have to be masterpieces or dumpster fires. Personally I enjoy the prequels quite a bit, but I feel they have flaws that hold them back from greatness, much like the majority of the OT. My point is that not everyone has to be a Tezzor or an SMG. There are many flavors of Star Wars opinions other than the two extremes.
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Oct 17, 2016 16:18
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:In Lord of The Rings the characters do stuff like give a dwarf a bag of magic heroin and send him on a cross-continental journey - on foot - to sacrifice himself to a volcano god. This comes across as 'natural' and 'believable' because they do a lot to distract you from the topic. What else are you going to do with magic heroin? Besides the obvious thing, I mean.
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Oct 17, 2016 16:25
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Atheist Sunglasses posted:How do you guys handle buying Rogue One tickets? Are there alerts anywhere? Do we know what days they go on sale? I dont think theyre up for presale its still only mid october
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Oct 17, 2016 16:33
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:In Lord of The Rings the characters do stuff like give a dwarf a bag of magic heroin and send him on a cross-continental journey - on foot - to sacrifice himself to a volcano god. This comes across as 'natural' and 'believable' because they do a lot to distract you from the topic. Everyone just takes it for granted that Gandalf and Aragorm are perfect authority figures, and that you should do what they say. I wasn't really trying to compare lotr, I didn't love the series first time around and have never rewatched since the cinema release.
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Oct 17, 2016 16:34
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Cnut the Great posted:Agreed. I definitely still like and enjoy all the LOTR movies, they're just not near the top of my list in any category and I'd rather just read the books. The Lord of the Rings has better rip-offs because Willow is also by George Lucas.
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Oct 17, 2016 16:36
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Didnt Episode 7 tickets go on sale 60 days before release? Edit This article was dated Oct 20 of 2015 so it would seem 60 was the case. http://www.thewrap.com/star-wars-the-force-awakens-breaks-fandangos-record-for-presale-tickets/
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Oct 17, 2016 16:39
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I bought mine the 18th of October last year. I was randomly looking on Fandango the moment they went on sale. I grabbed an entire row for my friends opening night. 10 seconds later it was entirely sold out.
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Oct 17, 2016 16:47
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Lampsacus posted:No, I just feel there is a certain culture in this thread of pushing the prequels for reasons outside of authentic enjoyment of them. Whether its to provide interesting discussion or simply to irritate the 'prequels suck, originals rule' internet mass. I'm very certain many people genuinely like the prequels. I, for one, was a kid when they came out and thoroughly enjoyed them at the pictures. I have heaps of nostalgia for E1. I liked 1 and 3 a lot when I first saw them, but became less crazy about them (to at least half-Tezzor level hate) the older I got. Now I can appreciate what the prequels bring to the table thematically, and how the OT is improved by their inclusion, but it was a huge chore getting through a recent rewatch of I-III. I can definitely understand why you'd be unsure as to whether a lot of the big prequel fans are serious, but I think a close examination of the sheer brokenness of the entire cast might be more up their alley than mine. Perhaps they think Minmay from Robotech is perfect exactly the way she is, whereas I think her character got a raw deal overall for how important her role was in the story. I just don't really get where the rooting interest is supposed to lie in the PT.
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Oct 17, 2016 16:49
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Filthy Casual posted:I just don't really get where the rooting interest is supposed to lie in the PT. The rooting interest is "supposed to" lie in Obi-Wan and Yoda and Anakin and Amidala, in the Jedi and the Republic, and in peace and justice. Your rooting interest in Titanic is "supposed to" lie in the good passengers and workers on the ship. Their lack of success does not change the POV.
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Oct 17, 2016 16:55
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ShineDog posted:I wasn't really trying to compare lotr, I didn't love the series first time around and have never rewatched since the cinema release. Oh I know. My point is that when people talk about 'believable character decisions', they tend to actually mean 'unquestioned character decisions'. Like even with the Star Wars 'OT', we've shown time and again in this thread that hardcore fans can't explain basic stuff like Luke Skywalker's motivations. Like: why does he join the rebels, why does he attempt suicide in Empire Strikes Back, etc. Many didn't even realize that Luke was attempting suicide, because the decision to jump into the infinite death pit went completely unquestioned. So Luke was simply making a tactical decision to hide at the bottom of the infinite death pit, as part of his ongoing mission to avenge his beloved Aunt Beru.
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Oct 17, 2016 17:17
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Ghosts literally come out of loving nowhere to save the day in Lord of the Rings. If that's the definition of "superior plotting" then some of you are touched in the head. Also, Willow is better than Lord of the Rings and The Force Awakens. 
ruddiger fucked around with this message at 17:27 on Oct 17, 2016 |
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Oct 17, 2016 17:23
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ruddiger posted:Ghosts literally come out of loving nowhere to save the day in Lord of the Rings. If that's the definition of "superior plotting" then some of you are touched in the head. I'm just glad they didn't include the several chapters that the fellowship spent in the hospital after the Battle of Gondor.
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Oct 17, 2016 17:28
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ruddiger posted:Ghosts literally come out of loving nowhere to save the day in Lord of the Rings. If that's the definition of "superior plotting" then some of you are touched in the head.
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Oct 17, 2016 17:33
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I can't speak for everyone here who likes the prequels, but I'm not one to condemn the heroes of those movies. I love cheering for Obi-Wan and Padmé! And every time I watch Yoda confront the Emperor, a part of me still hopes that this time he's somehow going to win. These aren't bad people. They are brave, self-sacrificing, loyal, honest, devoted, and witty! I think those facets really shine through in Ewan McGregor's performance, and Natalie Portman shows off plenty of pluckiness when her role calls for it. The tragedy is that these characters have all been brought up to believe in a political and ethical system that just doesn't work. They're deeply invested in protecting the status quo, which makes sense because it gives them all a measure of power and authority. Then Anakin comes along and exposes them: you can't free the slaves, you can't end corruption, you can't stop war and violence and death, you can't even let me love the people I love. The other heroes have no answer for him—not because they don't want to help, but because they can't imagine doing anything different. Padmé genuinely believes in helping the poor and downtrodden, but in her role as Senator she spends all her time in palaces and penthouses. Yoda senses trouble brewing, but chooses to meditate on this high up in his ivory tower. Obi-Wan is the best Jedi the Order could possibly produce, but for precisely that reason, he can't find it in himself to tell Anakin how much he loves him. So the message Anakin hears from his friends and mentors is this: your problems aren't real, your feelings are wrong, we know best, and you need to sit back and let things continue the way they always have. In the end, he faces a choice between either the sure despair of the status quo or the promise from a kindly old man that he can use his boundless powers to shape a better future all by himself. Anakin was wrong to choose the latter option, of course, but Obi-Wan and Yoda and Padmé and the entire Jedi Order failed him by presenting him with that choice in the first place. Zoran fucked around with this message at 17:57 on Oct 17, 2016 |
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Oct 17, 2016 17:55
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Zoran posted:I can't speak for everyone here who likes the prequels, but I'm not one to condemn the heroes of those movies. I love cheering for Obi-Wan and Padmé! And every time I watch Yoda confront the Emperor, a part of me still hopes that this time he's somehow going to win. "um I think you'll find that because a thing farts in episode 1 the prequels actually suck sorry OP" - a thing people think
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Oct 17, 2016 18:08
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I find it hard to interpret because stuff like LotR ghosts and the magic bread are in the story the movie was based on, and it isn't clear who is comparing two stories and who is comparing two film trilogies.
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Oct 17, 2016 18:26
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homullus posted:The rooting interest is "supposed to" lie in Obi-Wan and Yoda and Anakin and Amidala, in the Jedi and the Republic, and in peace and justice. Your rooting interest in Titanic is "supposed to" lie in the good passengers and workers on the ship. Their lack of success does not change the POV. I think I worded that poorly. I know where the rooting interest is supposed to be, but its also the degree of their failure that irks me. Not failure in the sense that the message wasn't communicated properly, but it got downright brutal without too many positive qualities to balance it out. Zoran posted:These aren't bad people. They are brave, self-sacrificing, loyal, honest, devoted, and witty! I think those facets really shine through in Ewan McGregor's performance, and Natalie Portman shows off plenty of pluckiness when her role calls for it. I agree that Padme is a good person caught up in a bad scene, but the Jedi are entirely too complicit in being the Republic's thugs, turning a blind eye to slavery, casual genocide and arguably being child slavers themselves (how can a 3 year old consent to joining the Order)? quote:So the message Anakin hears from his friends and mentors is this: your problems aren't real, your feelings are wrong, we know best, and you need to sit back and let things continue the way they always have. Given the above, its kind of hard to blame Anakin for going full Columbine. I don't really get how you can enjoy characters that wreck what is basically The Best Kid so thoroughly, and so arrogantly. At least with Palpatine he's fabulous about it. Which leaves me with the question, of all the ways to depict a Jedi Order gone to seed and Palpatine's rise to power, why this specifically? Would Luke be less good for rising above them if they weren't every war crime wrapped in one? Filthy Casual fucked around with this message at 18:32 on Oct 17, 2016 |
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Oct 17, 2016 18:28
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If the Jedi had stuck to their code of "you must be this young to join the order" everything would have turned out pretty ok. Their big fuckup was letting it slide once.
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Oct 17, 2016 18:30
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RBA Starblade posted:If the Jedi had stuck to their code of "you must be this young to join the order" everything would have turned out pretty ok. Their big fuckup was letting it slide once. If anyone older than 3 can see through you, you ain't worth poodoo.
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Oct 17, 2016 18:33
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Filthy Casual posted:If anyone older than 3 can see through you, you ain't worth poodoo. Sure, but all the same, the fuckup was letting the precocious slaver in.
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Oct 17, 2016 18:34
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Waffles Inc. posted:"um I think you'll find that because a thing farts in episode 1 the prequels actually suck sorry OP" Gimli farting: genius Tatooine Beast of burden farting: loving GEORGE 
ruddiger fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Oct 17, 2016 |
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Oct 17, 2016 18:36
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RBA Starblade posted:If the Jedi had stuck to their code of "you must be this young to join the order" everything would have turned out pretty ok. Their big fuckup was letting it slide once. Palpatine's plans were in full swing long before they knew about Anakin (that dumb EU book aside). It's likely that without Anakin they would've all died at the counterattack since he's the one that disabled all the droids.
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Oct 17, 2016 18:38
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Oh I know. My point is that when people talk about 'believable character decisions', they tend to actually mean 'unquestioned character decisions'. It seems really weird (and kind of offensive? I don't know) to characterize what Luke does as a suicide attempt. It's a suicidal act of defiance but that's a very different thing.
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Oct 17, 2016 18:40
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computer parts posted:Palpatine's plans were in full swing long before they knew about Anakin (that dumb EU book aside). I don't know about that (because I don't remember it), but Anakin himself is pretty pivotal to the Empire coming into existence. Though, then again, he's also the one who informs them that Palpatine is a sith lord.
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Oct 17, 2016 18:43
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RBA Starblade posted:I don't know about that (because I don't remember it), but Anakin himself is pretty pivotal to the Empire coming into existence. Though, then again, he's also the one who informs them that Palpatine is a sith lord. Basically nothing about Palpatine's plans in TPM requires Anakin to exist. Nothing in AOTC really requires him either. You'd get a false flag war with or without him. Palpatine being friendly to Anakin is a long running thing but it's meant solely to sway Anakin over to the dark side.
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Oct 17, 2016 18:50
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computer parts posted:Basically nothing about Palpatine's plans in TPM requires Anakin to exist. Nothing in AOTC really requires him either. You'd get a false flag war with or without him. I was thinking the thing that guarantees the Empire is Anakin stopping Mace and events spiraling from there, but also forgot that he's the one who tells him about Palps in the first place. I don't recall if he was already heading over to remove him from emergency power though.
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Oct 17, 2016 18:57
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Filthy Casual posted:I think I worded that poorly. I know where the rooting interest is supposed to be, but its also the degree of their failure that irks me. Not failure in the sense that the message wasn't communicated properly, but it got downright brutal without too many positive qualities to balance it out. I used Titanic as the other example for a reason. The needless deaths of so many is also downright brutal and, like the prequels, was a foregone conclusion. How could the Jedi and the Republic have failed less brutally and still gotten us to Episode IV? The prequels cannot be anything other than a tragedy.
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Oct 17, 2016 18:58
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