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Luvcow posted:I posted the easily found definition from a quick google search, which is also the way it was defined when i studied and debated it in college and wrote papers on. You? You didn't answer my question about systemic power structures.
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Nov 2, 2016 21:31
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Bass Bottles posted:You didn't answer my question about systemic power structures. Please explain
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Nov 2, 2016 21:32
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Bass Bottles posted:You didn't answer my question about systemic power structures. Ok you disappeared. I'm not trying to be a dick to you but it seems you don't really know what you are talking about. Racism is by no means dependent on systemic power structures and the term "reverse racism" is garbage and speaks to a complete misunderstanding of the concept of racism.
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Nov 2, 2016 21:39
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Luvcow posted:Please explain Well the most visible example right now would be police violence. But there is also voter suppression, re-segregation (hey, that just aired), harsher criminal penalties for the same crimes, targeted criminal investigation, higher rates of employment for the same exact resume with different names, and the list goes on. Maybe you're more familiar with the concept of white privilege? Take white privilege and consider what happens to the people who don't have it. Racism as a concept is about how our society is specifically structured around white privilege. That's why this definition is better than yours. It acknowledges something that is often left out of the conversation. It's really weird someone posting in this thread could be unfamiliar with this.
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Nov 2, 2016 21:40
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Sweeping generalities about power structures are really useful for quietly ignoring that the same thing can absolutely happen with the (admittedly less frequent) black person in a position of power who has prejudice to spare. Prejudice sucks and I've never really understood why we need to segregate definitions to explain why this kind of prejudice is totally worse than this other kind no really guys!
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Nov 2, 2016 21:41
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Luvcow posted:Ok you disappeared. I'm not trying to be a dick to you but it seems you don't really know what you are talking about. Racism is by no means dependent on systemic power structures and the term "reverse racism" is garbage and speaks to a complete misunderstanding of the concept of racism. You are the one who is saying reverse racism exists.
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Nov 2, 2016 21:41
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Strobe posted:Sweeping generalities about power structures are really useful for quietly ignoring that the same thing can absolutely happen with the (admittedly less frequent) black person in a position of power who has prejudice to spare. Holy poo poo Did I walk into the Fox & Friends thread by accident?
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Nov 2, 2016 21:42
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Bass Bottles posted:Well the most visible example right now would be police violence. Yeah and you're aware racism exists all over the world and not just in america? Racism and prejudice can result from and be created by inequities of power and economy but they can also exist independent of them. Please stop trying to drop subtle insults when you're discussing something that you obviously aren't well versed in.
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Nov 2, 2016 21:43
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Bass Bottles posted:Holy poo poo Hey, have you looked up, up there, at the top of the earth's crust Luvcow posted:Yeah and you're aware racism exists all over the world and not just in america? Racism and prejudice can result from and be created by inequities of power and economy but they can also exist independent of them. Please stop trying to drop subtle insults when you're discussing something that you obviously aren't well versed in. YOu really didn't make a point you know.. Plus there's nowhere in the world where racism exist for black people to use as a tool?
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Nov 2, 2016 21:43
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Bass Bottles posted:Holy poo poo Seriously stop doing this poo poo and maybe listen to the people who are trying to explain things to you.
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Nov 2, 2016 21:44
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Racism, particularly against black people, is a massive problem that plagues the entire nation in a thousand different facets of life at every level of society. The part where you lose me is where the entirely sincere "can't be rascist against whites" gets trotted out as if that makes that kind of prejudice any less wrong.
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Nov 2, 2016 21:45
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Bass Bottles posted:You are the one who is saying reverse racism exists. No i'm not. I just told you "reverse racism" is a garbage word that speaks to a lack of understanding of what racism is.
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Nov 2, 2016 21:45
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Veskit posted:http://rollingout.com/2015/10/07/obama-administration-earmarks-12-million-reparations-holocaust-survivors/ No but see it's different because!
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Nov 2, 2016 21:50
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IRQ posted:No but see it's different because! Who am i to draw a comparison between american black slavery and the hollocost! Paying the Jews reparations was the white thing to do and all.
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Nov 2, 2016 21:52
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Why do you want prejudice and racism to mean the same thing? Why is it bad to have a word that acknowledges systemic power structures? I fee like I'm in some kind of alternate universe where John Oliver is a republican
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Nov 2, 2016 21:55
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Bass Bottles posted:Why do you want prejudice and racism to mean the same thing? Why is it bad to have a word that acknowledges systemic power structures? I want "prejudice based on race" to mean the same thing as racism, because "acknowledging systemic power structures" is a convenient and easy way to pretend that there's an entire group of people for which prejudice based on race is somehow less bad.
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Nov 2, 2016 22:00
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Veskit posted:Who am i to draw a comparison between american black slavery and the hollocost! Paying the Jews reparations was the white thing to do and all. Look Veskit you need to see the nuance in these things, they just don't compare 1:1, jews and blacks, the issue isn't black and white like that.
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Nov 2, 2016 22:02
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Luvcow posted:Seriously stop doing this poo poo and maybe listen to the people who are trying to explain things to you. Stop doing this poo poo, and maybe actually engage in a discussion instead of assuming you're the one speaking from authority. Strobe posted:Racism, particularly against black people, is a massive problem that plagues the entire nation in a thousand different facets of life at every level of society. Nobody has said prejudice against whites is a good thing because of racism against blacks and other minorities. At least no here. People in sociology circles and speaking about social equality use a definition of racism that connects to social power structures. It might have made more sense if prejudice had been the term used, but that's how it is. Racism has more of visceral punch to it, so that's probably why. Racism still has a definition not connected to power, and people still using that definition in discussions where it doesn't fit is where a lot of these semantic arguments happen even among people generally on the same side.
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Nov 2, 2016 22:03
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I'm sorry but there is no racism against white people in any English language speaking countries. Also, power structures are ALWAYS inherently linked to it. There is no context where you can't say that!!!!! Ahhhhhhh!!!!! I especially love your bizarre patronizing condescension
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Nov 2, 2016 22:03
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Bass Bottles posted:Why do you want prejudice and racism to mean the same thing? Why is it bad to have a word that acknowledges systemic power structures? It's not bad, I'm sorry if you took it that way. Also sorry if anything I said has insulted you. I'm going to say that maybe a TVIV thread about John Oliver isn't the place to be having this discussion. If you feel this passionately about the subject, and I think it benefits us all for people to feel this way, then maybe seek out literature, teachers and other people and discuss it with them. I'm not seeing anyone in this thread growing or learning or changing their opinions or attitudes on the subject so it seems like just a pointless derail.
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Nov 2, 2016 22:02
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I'm just kind of in awe, is all. Also, I guarantee you, if John Oliver ever addresses this subject he will not take your stance.
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Nov 2, 2016 22:06
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Luvcow posted:It's not bad, I'm sorry if you took it that way. Also sorry if anything I said has insulted you. I'm going to say that maybe a TVIV thread about John Oliver isn't the place to be having this discussion. If you feel this passionately about the subject, and I think it benefits us all for people to feel this way, then maybe seek out literature, teachers and other people and discuss it with them. I'm not seeing anyone in this thread growing or learning or changing their opinions or attitudes on the subject so it seems like just a pointless derail. Good lord, you are condescending. You are the one operating without a full understanding of how the term is used now. Maybe you might want to check that your position is absolutely right before talking down to people.
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Nov 2, 2016 22:06
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Poor Miserable Gurgi posted:Good lord, you are condescending. You are the one operating without a full understanding of how the term is used now. Maybe you might want to check that your position is absolutely right before talking down to people. I disagree. Sorry.
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Nov 2, 2016 22:08
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Luvcow posted:I disagree. Sorry. Okay. Strobe posted:I want "prejudice based on race" to mean the same thing as racism, because "acknowledging systemic power structures" is a convenient and easy way to pretend that there's an entire group of people for which prejudice based on race is somehow less bad. No one is saying that incidents of prejudice white people or straight people, etc experience are inherently less bad. Just that in general terms, the incidents are so much fewer and not backed by actual laws and general mindsets that you can't put the overall experience on the same level. So to give a shorthand for those discussions, "racism" was given the context of systemic power structures. You may not like that that was the word chosen over "prejudice", but that's how it is at the moment.
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Nov 2, 2016 22:19
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Bass Bottles posted:There's a lot of extremely sketchy garbage being posted on this page but I will bite on this one. I wish you hadn't. Not because I dislike that you answered my question, which I'm thankful for - but because I resent the implication that asking a simple question is baiting in some manner or sketchy garbage. Bass Bottles posted:Racism is not the same thing as prejudice. Racism deals with systemic power structures. When you say that "anyone can be racist" you are denying that these systemic power structures exist. You can be aware of and acknowledge systemic power structures while holding a different opinion on racism surely. Also, wouldn't that make systemic power structures built to keep white people poor racist? As opposed to what they'd normally be called: classist? Also also, why can someone not just differentiate between personal racism and systemic/institutional racism? I agree that racism is not the same thing as prejudice, but more because while all racism is prejudice, not all prejudice is racism since prejudice is a generalised term for discrimination based on at least one of multiple factors (class, sex, gender, religion etc.) that can include but aren't limited to race. It just seems weird to me that someone would insist racism is defined solely by systemic power structures and the classical definition is no longer valid, but that anyone looking to use that definition should now use a much more general term instead of just differentiating the two terms or using both and letting context define them. Veskit posted:http://rollingout.com/2015/10/07/obama-administration-earmarks-12-million-reparations-holocaust-survivors/ I'd say that anyone being prejudiced/racist/personally offended/whatever at that is being unreasonable personally, because reparations aren't really a zero-sum game. The decision to repay Jews wasn't taking above repaying Black people, nor is the fact it's happening in any way denying that Black people could be repaid. They're not, which is lovely, but getting angry at Jews for receiving reparations just because Black people didn't is a futile effort at best. And saying it's just a white thing is silly since Japanese and American Indians have both gotten reparations from the American government for different atrocities over the years too.
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Nov 2, 2016 22:31
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The problem I see here is that some people take the term 'racism,' which by definition simply means 'prejudice based on race,' and technically doesn't even imply negative prejudice; simply 'the pre-judging of a person based on race,' and are attempting to make it mean something else. Pick a different word or phrase, like 'institutionalized racism,' and maybe people start to be on the same page. Next, they say 'Black people in America can't be racist, because they're not in charge of the institutions,' but the issue is, it implies that were Black people in charge of said institutions, they'd still not be racist, for some reason. Which is, on it's face, racist; you're assuming 'because Black, X.' Third, you're ignoring thousands of years of history. Blacks institutionally racist? Absolutely! Look at African history. Much like the English were outright institutionally racist against the Irish, for example, African tribes were, and are, institutionally racist against other tribes. They just have a finer grained view or 'race' than 'African-American.' Fourth, look at this picture: (http://www.skibbereeneagle.ie/ireland/no-irish-need-apply/)  Are Irish still incapable of racism? At what point were Irish accepted into the power structure enough that, suddenly, they were capable of racism? Did they become retroactively capable of racism?
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Nov 2, 2016 22:41
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TheCenturion posted:The problem I see here is that some people take the term 'racism,' which by definition simply means 'prejudice based on race,' and technically doesn't even imply negative prejudice; simply 'the pre-judging of a person based on race,' and are attempting to make it mean something else. I mean, this isn't brand new. I admit it confuses conversations, but this definition has been used for a few years, at least. TheCenturion posted:Next, they say 'Black people in America can't be racist, because they're not in charge of the institutions,' but the issue is, it implies that were Black people in charge of said institutions, they'd still not be racist, for some reason. Which is, on it's face, racist; you're assuming 'because Black, X.' Nobody is implying that, though. By definition, black people would be the ones creating systemic racism in that case. Examples of places in Africa don't apply because this definition is used in discussions of the US and white led Western countries. It's contingent on whatever the prevailing systems in place are, no matter the place or time.
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Nov 2, 2016 22:48
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I think a lot of people that aren't really big into sociology and all that stuff equate racism and prejudice to being the same. There are folks in this thread that have researched it and come to their conclusion they are different, but it somehow gives license for the former get to be condescending, pretentious dicks to the latter? Ditto for making salient points but wrapping them in so much hyperbole the point is nearly impossible to see. I don't really think it gives you the right to name call people or be an rear end in a top hat because they just don't like, get it, maaaaaannn Essentially, you don't have to be an rear end in a top hat but you certainly choose to be
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Nov 2, 2016 22:48
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tsob posted:How? What definition would make someone literally incapable of racism? I'm honestly curious to see you make that debate and detail what definition you're suggesting. A lot of people these days seem to be really upset at the idea that they might hold racist views and do racist things, simply because they believe themselves to not be racist.. Ironically a huge portion of people who feel like that are also of the "anti Political-Correctness" ilk, so they easily get upset and will defend their racist words and actions by saying that it's because special snowflakes can't handle "jokes" or "random comments" or "something meant in good fun," and simultaneously bemoan how college campuses are full of trigger warnings and poo poo, while not seeing the irony in their own massive overreactions to being told that they're behaving in a racist manner. You see as long as you can just make jokes about monkeys and gorillas it's cool, but when someone black gets offended about your "it's so easy a monkey could do it," comment taken in or out of context, it's their fault that they heard your words as something other than you meant..  fakeedit: I actually was hanging out with a few black friends and talking about model painting methods and stuff and dropped a "so easy a monkey could do it" comment while I was trying to show them how to do a sparkle wash finish, or to age leather by using a similar method. You could hear a loving pin drop, but until that record-scratch moment with my friends I'd never even considered how a term like that might be taken, and what its likely origins were.. I mean how the gently caress can you fault someone for having that much baggage over something? Is it not simply easier and also a more moral thing, to just slightly change your own behaviors to adjust for their comfort?
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Nov 2, 2016 22:51
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tsob posted:I'd say that anyone being prejudiced/racist/personally offended/whatever at that is being unreasonable personally, because reparations aren't really a zero-sum game. The decision to repay Jews wasn't taking above repaying Black people, nor is the fact it's happening in any way denying that Black people could be repaid. They're not, which is lovely, but getting angry at Jews for receiving reparations just because Black people didn't is a futile effort at best. And saying it's just a white thing is silly since Japanese and American Indians have both gotten reparations from the American government for different atrocities over the years too. I'll cut you slack because you're really not american. You're really, really, really, really blatantly not american and really don't understand what you're saying. I understand that, I'm also letting you knokw this. It's hard to express in words you comparing native reparations, or hell anything the natives have received as reparations. Lets say this. I've worked at indian casinos in the NW, it was a huge part of my career and I had a lot of friends. I would god drat NEVER tell someone "well you got reparations and I didn't". It's not comparable in that sense. I want to make that clear. The japanese were paid in 1988 when american's were cool with them. Again, my country paid reparations for attrocities 40 years later, to a very small minority group, while passing up black people. Yes it's not the same at all. You'll have a hard time comparing it it's, WILDLY different. tsob posted:Also, wouldn't that make systemic power structures built to keep white people poor racist? As opposed to what they'd normally be called: classist? WHITE POOR ISN"T A RACE. THE WHITE POOR you said the white people who happen to be poor. How is that racism in anyway shape or form? Poor white isn't a race.
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Nov 2, 2016 22:55
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Veskit posted:Yes it's not the same at all. You'll have a hard time comparing it it's, WILDLY different. Well putting aside my very obvious unfamiliarity with the culture and the value of reparations other groups have received my main point was that I still think that being racist or otherwise upset at Jewish people receiving reparations is unreasonable because it's treating the matter as zero-sum when it isn't and Black people could (and should) still receive reparations. They aren't, but it's not because Jewish people are - it's because the US Government doesn't want to make those reparations for whatever reason. Veskit posted:WHITE POOR ISN"T A RACE. THE WHITE POOR you said the white people who happen to be poor. How is that racism in anyway shape or form? Poor white isn't a race. I don't think it is. What I was saying was that if you define racism solely as systemic power structures, then poor people (of any race, but in this instance White) who are kept poor by systems are victims of racism when what I think they should be classified as victims of is classism. Or systemic power structures, but as it's own term instead of calling it racism. I'm objecting to that definition by asking a question that I'm hoping will clarify why I'm objecting to it and highlighting what seems to be one of the sillier outcomes of defining racism on those terms. tsob fucked around with this message at 23:18 on Nov 2, 2016 |
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Nov 2, 2016 23:09
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tsob posted:I don't think it is. What I was saying was that if you define racism solely as systemic power structures, then poor people (of any race, but in this instance White) are victims of racism when what I think they should be classified as victims of is classism. Or systemic power structures, but as it's own term instead of calling it racism. I'm objecting to that definition by asking a question that I'm hoping will clarify why I'm objecting to it. It's not solely systemic power, its race-based prejudice backed by systemic power. Systemic pressures and laws that target poor people are classist, the ones that target minorities are racist. Both can exist at the same time. Many that are mostly targeted at minorities, such as the voter right laws that North Carolina instituted by researching black voting habits, also affect poor whites because they're mainly targeted at poor minorities. So for some of it, it's just racist friendly fire.
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Nov 2, 2016 23:16
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tsob posted:Well putting aside my very obvious unfamiliarity with the culture and the value of reparations other groups have received my main point was that I still think that being racist or otherwise upset at Jewish people receiving reparations is unreasonable because it's treating the matter as zero-sum when it isn't and Black people could (and should) still receive reparations. They aren't, but it's not because Jewish people are - it's because the US Government doesn't want to make those reparations for whatever reason. Hey Yo, TSOB, could you find a speech from bernie talking about this struggle, and how his people received reparations but ours didn't? Any Jew? Something acknowledging that this saved their race and culture and livelihood while we got the short end of the stick? That's where the anger comes from. I'm not saying it warrants being horrific to someone based off of their background but you should be able to see that if you're not being empathetic about what happened then you're really being an rear end about it right? tsob posted:I don't think it is. What I was saying was that if you define racism solely as systemic power structures, then poor people (of any race, but in this instance White) are victims of racism when what I think they should be classified as victims of is classism. Or systemic power structures, but as it's own term instead of calling it racism. I'm objecting to that definition by asking a question that I'm hoping will clarify why I'm objecting to it. White people aren't victims of racism though so it's a really bad example that doesn't make sense. Are you asking if there's a good word for the system and society keeping poor white people down? Like Classism? Veskit fucked around with this message at 23:25 on Nov 2, 2016 |
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Nov 2, 2016 23:17
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Veskit posted:Who am i to draw a comparison between american black slavery and the hollocost! Paying the Jews reparations was the white thing to do and all. You do realize that Jews have generally been shat upon by Europe longer then slavery in America existed right?
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Nov 2, 2016 23:17
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Hunt11 posted:You do realize that Jews have generally been shat upon by Europe longer then slavery in America existed right? Yes? What's your terrible point?
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Nov 2, 2016 23:18
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Veskit posted:Yes? Just before I start to argue I want to know just what type of reparations are we talking about here? Even you have to admit that it is easier to handle that type of stuff with the victims and their immediate families then something that ended almost 150 years ago.
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Nov 2, 2016 23:21
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Veskit posted:White people aren't victims of classism though so it's a really bad example that doesn't make sense. Are you asking if there's a good word for the system and society keeping poor white people down? Not going into the first half of that post, because holy poo poo, but you're losing the thread here, dude. White people can't be victims of classism? I've heard no one defining classism by race. The two intersect to a huge degree, sure, but it's not the same thing.
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Nov 2, 2016 23:21
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Poor Miserable Gurgi posted:Not going into the first half of that post, because holy poo poo, but you're losing the thread here, dude. White people can't be victims of Classism? I've heard no one defining classism by race. The two intersect to a huge degree, sure, but it's not the same thing. poo poo I meant racism!!!!!! CLASSISM IS A REALLY DUMB WORD TO USE THERE Veskit fucked around with this message at 23:26 on Nov 2, 2016 |
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Nov 2, 2016 23:24
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Veskit posted:That's where the anger comes from. I'm not saying it warrants being horrific to someone based off of their background but you should be able to see that if you're not being empathetic about what happened then you're really being an rear end about it right? Wrong, because I think there's a middle ground between being empathic or an rear end where someone just doesn't care. That's not really here or there though. I can understand someone being angry about the situation, and it's pretty stupid of me to word it in a way that suggest otherwise (caused by me being unsure of whether to use the word racist given the topic of discussion) - only that I don't think you can really wave away racism based on it. Veskit posted:White people aren't victims of classism though so it's a really bad example that doesn't make sense. Are you asking if there's a good word for the system and society keeping poor white people down? They might not be in America, but there are certainly systems in place throughout Europe to keep some people (who happen to be White, but I doubt the people building those systems cared) poor so that there's always people to work the lovely jobs and keep the place running. I'd have thought that true in America too, but I haven't looked in to the matter. Edit: No, I'm not looking for a good word for classism, since there is a good word for that: classism. What I'm trying to do is illustrate why I think defining racism as systemic power structures is a bad definition since (a) you can just call it systemic/institutional racism to differentiate it from regular racism and (b) it seems to include other things that wouldn't normally be considered racism, like classism and so muddle the matter unnecessarily. tsob fucked around with this message at 23:28 on Nov 2, 2016 |
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Nov 2, 2016 23:25
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No more racism talk. Everybody is just getting pissed off at everybody else and it has absolutely nothing to do with anything. If you really want to discuss racism there are other subforms for it.
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Nov 2, 2016 23:26
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