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Fuckin Trump Riot posted:If you can shut off the rational part of your brain for an hour a week, he's over on Legends doing exactly that, plus carting Damien Darhk around with him. He already killed Hourman because gently caress you, that's why.
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Nov 19, 2016 03:45
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Rhyno posted:Has he stopped thinking everyone at the CW is an rear end in a top hat? As long as they're assholes who're willing to pay him, who cares?
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Nov 19, 2016 04:54
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lotus circle posted:I've been watching it just for that honestly. Though he's only really been on screen for a few short scenes so far, but that should be changing in the second half of the season. Eobard is the antihero we need, the only man who will do whatever it takes to stop the rampaging murder speed of Barry Allen. Also I like how he's not even trying to pretend to care about history right now. "I can get away with time travel because I'm not a huge dumb idiot like you Barry!!" *gives Nazis a nuke*
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Nov 19, 2016 05:27
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Rhyno posted:Has he stopped thinking everyone at the CW is an rear end in a top hat? Looks like it'll be an alt universe Deathstroke (his son?) since Manu was tweeting from NZ recently.
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Nov 19, 2016 06:27
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Oracle posted:Looks like it'll be an alt universe Deathstroke (his son?) since Manu was tweeting from NZ recently. Or Slade just doesn't take the mask off and speaks through a voice synthesizer for some  mysterious reason for this whole cameo.
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Nov 19, 2016 09:44
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It's Ron Perlman under the mask (hooray!)
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Nov 19, 2016 10:38
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DoctorWhat posted:It's Laurel Lance under the mask (hooray!)
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Nov 19, 2016 17:24
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Blackstroke the Canarinator
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Nov 19, 2016 20:47
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Does that Onbench dude still do those amazing synopsis? Or did the last seasons of Flash and Arrow break him?
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Nov 19, 2016 22:51
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God, the "Jay is Zoom" twist is such a mess. Jay is a total non-character. We're not invested in him at all, even after half a season. We're supposed to buy that this is another big betrayal, but it's not. He's hardly in the show. And what is the purpose? What is the point of this? "It's very good for Barry to trust his friends, except sometimes when it's not." Except Jay wasn't his friend. He was just some guy who turned up sometimes. I'm also pretty sure they were just making it up as they went along, as evidenced by Zoom bringing the dead Jay home and being like "Well this is a complication." I don't think the writers had any idea what they wanted with this season. It's a shame, because on a per-episode basis there's plenty of good stuff. Everything with Joe and Iris' mom is very good. Their relationship makes sense, it's nuanced, they act like real people. A lot of the stuff with the team and the new Wells is good. There are some decent monster-of-the-week things. But god, the metaplot is a disaster.
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Nov 20, 2016 00:17
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FactsAreUseless posted:God, the "Jay is Zoom" twist is such a mess. Jay is a total non-character. We're not invested in him at all, even after half a season. We're supposed to buy that this is another big betrayal, but it's not. He's hardly in the show. And what is the purpose? What is the point of this? "It's very good for Barry to trust his friends, except sometimes when it's not." Except Jay wasn't his friend. He was just some guy who turned up sometimes. Pretty sure several interviews with the show runners suggested that they somehow thought that Jay's sporadic appearances would in fact be enough emotional investment to lead to it feeling like a real betrayal. Season 2 has some real fun episodes, and some real good episodes, but overall the season as a whole feels incredibly flat due to the lack of any clear direction with Jay and Zoom. Even if it did give us Harry and King Motherfuckin' Shark.
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Nov 20, 2016 00:24
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Zoom kicking the poo poo out of Barry was extremely satisfying and is also one of the high points of the second season.
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Nov 20, 2016 00:34
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Zebulon posted:Pretty sure several interviews with the show runners suggested that they somehow thought that Jay's sporadic appearances would in fact be enough emotional investment to lead to it feeling like a real betrayal. Yeah, I remember one interview with (I think) Andrew Kreisberg where he was talking about the then-ongoing season two plot and he genuinely seemed to believe that Jay had become as much of a trusted mentor to Barry as Wells/Thawne was in season one, but I just don't think it was there on the screen itself. I'd say it's a sort of "show don't tell" situation except they neglected to do either.
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Nov 20, 2016 01:02
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Look he taught Barry how to throw lightning 
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Nov 20, 2016 01:26
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CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:Look he taught Barry how to throw lightning Then caught it and beat the poo poo out of him 
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Nov 20, 2016 01:29
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FactsAreUseless posted:I'm also pretty sure they were just making it up as they went along, as evidenced by Zoom bringing the dead Jay home and being like "Well this is a complication." I don't think the writers had any idea what they wanted with this season. I disagree with this part, I think two key things happened: 1) they wanted the whole dynamic of the season to be Jay Garrick being the "trustworthy" mentor and the new Wells to be the shady mentor (both because of their history with Thawne-Wells and also cause he's just a dick in general) and for it to be a reversal of expectation when Jay turned out to be the bad guy 2) they were desperate to throw people off the trail, and they chose to do this by keeping Jay way in the background the whole season and pulling poo poo like the dumb time remnant stuff Like the first part is actually a compelling idea and would have been a good follow up to season 1's plot. Jay Garrick trying to appeal to Barry through the nice guy routine while Wells spat off uncomfortable truths. But it would still be a fairly obvious twist and they should have just embraced that. But yeah, I think for the most part they knew in advance what they were doing, and they just thought that they could half-rear end Zoom's "Jay" part by banking on the Jay Garrick name, and that the time remnant thing would be a cool mind-gently caress rather than some obvious bullshit.
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Nov 20, 2016 03:20
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The time remnant thing was the worst part for me. I caught up on season 2 a few months after it finished so i had already heard something about Jay Garrick being from Earth 3, but not that it was John Wesley Shipp, so I thought Earth 3 Jay had come to Earth 2 and become The Flash while Earth 2 Jay had become Zoom. Which meant that when Zoom was talking about time remnants I thought they were doing something kinda clever where he was coming up with a poo poo explanation on the fly to try to keep up the illusion that he was the Jay they were friends with, in order to mess with their heads, and in the end it would turn out there were two Jays and that's why nothing he said made sense. So when it ended up being the actual explanation it came across even worse because the thing I though was intentionally bad turned to be actually just bad.
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Nov 20, 2016 04:44
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A delightful Tom Felton story from a recent panel: on his very first day, Tom had to say the line "step away from the crime scene." Because life is a cruel joke, he instead said "step away from the sign cream." Grant Gustin, of course, heard this flub, chiseled it into his memory, and has never allowed Tom to forget it.
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Nov 20, 2016 04:51
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FactsAreUseless posted:Bonus points if they go back in time and encounter Wells-Thawne. And also Barry isn't in it, or Caitlin. And Iris punches somebody.
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Nov 20, 2016 08:05
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Aphrodite posted:And also Barry isn't in it, or Caitlin. And Iris punches somebody. Iris temporarily gains super speed and uses her powers to run through the multiverse knocking every incarnation of Wells, Eobard, and Wally right the gently caress out.  Edit: Double bonus points if they spend like an extra $10k to digitally insert Candice Patton into any given scene from Ed and have her cold clock Ed Stevens after mistaking him for another Wells. nine-gear crow fucked around with this message at 08:15 on Nov 20, 2016 |
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Nov 20, 2016 08:10
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Iris on Infinite Earths.
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Nov 20, 2016 08:17
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Stanfield posted:The time remnant thing was the worst part for me. The worst thing about the time remnants was that if you follow the convoluted logic of it, it actually does make sense, but on the surface it just looks like some bullshit excuse to do whatever they want. And they're more than happy to use bullshit excuses most of the time, so expecting the audience to follow their reasoning on this one thing is just weird.
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Nov 20, 2016 09:08
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They also called two different things time remnants.
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Nov 20, 2016 09:14
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God, so much of season 2 in retrospect was a complete waste of time. Remember the abortion of a tentative romance that was Jay/Caitlin? Because I do, and I will neither forgive nor forget. I'm pretty sure Jay spent more time onscreen with Caitlin than he did Barry, and yet we were supposed to buy him as Barry's mentor.
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Nov 20, 2016 12:40
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Tiggum posted:The worst thing about the time remnants was that if you follow the convoluted logic of it, it actually does make sense, but on the surface it just looks like some bullshit excuse to do whatever they want. And they're more than happy to use bullshit excuses most of the time, so expecting the audience to follow their reasoning on this one thing is just weird. They introduced the time remnant and "he was traveling in the Speed Force" thing to explain Thawne coming back, didn't they? I remember thinking they were making it more complicated than they had to. Would've been as easy to say that Eddie shot himself in 2014, which erased Thawne from the timeline, but Thawne still had to exist up until that point so he could come back in time and arrive in 2014 so he could impel Eddie to shoot himself. Hmm. Maybe that's even more complicated. It makes sense in my head.
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Nov 20, 2016 13:30
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Wheat Loaf posted:They introduced the time remnant and "he was traveling in the Speed Force" thing to explain Thawne coming back, didn't they? I remember thinking they were making it more complicated than they had to. Would've been as easy to say that Eddie shot himself in 2014, which erased Thawne from the timeline, but Thawne still had to exist up until that point so he could come back in time and arrive in 2014 so he could impel Eddie to shoot himself. It's possible to make a logically consistent time travel story, but unless it's very simple it will take a lot of thought to untangle it to the point that it makes sense, so you might as well not bother. Just don't blatantly break the rules you've established and leave enough ambiguity that people can come up with their own explanations for how it all works and you'll have a more satisfying story than if you'd worked it all out perfectly.
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Nov 20, 2016 13:50
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Tiggum posted:The worst thing about the time remnants was that if you follow the convoluted logic of it, it actually does make sense, but on the surface it just looks like some bullshit excuse to do whatever they want. And they're more than happy to use bullshit excuses most of the time, so expecting the audience to follow their reasoning on this one thing is just weird. It really doesn't make sense
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Nov 20, 2016 15:47
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Guy Goodbody posted:It really doesn't make sense It does. It's just like Aphrodite said, they called two different things time remnants. The Zoom version makes sense. The Thawne version works on some sort of Back to the Future logic where killing your own ancestor erases you from that point onward but not in the past or something. That version of time remnants makes no sense, it's just jargon to excuse Thawne being able to show up again despite never having been born. But the Zoom one is consistent throughout season two, even when Barry uses it in the last episode. It's like how there's the two different forms of time travel, the kind where you rewind time and there's only one of you and the kind where you travel back in time and there's the original you and the time traveller you. And actually I think the "time remnant" aspect of Thawne's thing might work the same way, it's just the way he disappeared when Eddie died that doesn't fit with any other instance of time travel in the show. I don't recall exactly though.
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Nov 20, 2016 16:04
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Guy A. Person posted:I disagree with this part, I think two key things happened:
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Nov 20, 2016 16:30
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FactsAreUseless posted:This is a fair analysis. I recognize, intellectually, that television doesn't get made up as it goes along. Seasons are planned ahead of time, arcs are written out, etc. It's never just made up, no matter what show gets accused of it. But it's still dumb and frustrating. You say this, and yet the Arrow writers admitted in Season 4 that when they wrote the funeral scene in the first episode, they hadn't actually decided who they were going to kill.
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Nov 20, 2016 17:21
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But they knew they were going to kill somebody. They plan arcs, but leave a lot of spaces to be filled in as they write the season.
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Nov 20, 2016 17:35
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FactsAreUseless posted:This is a fair analysis. I recognize, intellectually, that television doesn't get made up as it goes along. Seasons are planned ahead of time, arcs are written out, etc. It's never just made up, no matter what show gets accused of it. But it's still dumb and frustrating. Yeah agreed and tbh I was going to amend my post to say the time remnant thing did seem like an eleventh hour "eureka!" moment in the writer's room designed to explain some of the fuckery they pulled. But honestly the fact that they had a pretty decent outline for what to do and hosed it all up is more frustrating to me than if they had just been making poo poo up as they went along.
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Nov 20, 2016 18:16
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Tiggum posted:It does. It's just like Aphrodite said, they called two different things time remnants. The Zoom version makes sense. The Thawne version works on some sort of Back to the Future logic where killing your own ancestor erases you from that point onward but not in the past or something. That version of time remnants makes no sense, it's just jargon to excuse Thawne being able to show up again despite never having been born. But the Zoom one is consistent throughout season two, even when Barry uses it in the last episode. I don't understand how Thawne died right when Eddie did, but Zoom could kill himself in the past, carry the body around for awhile, and none of that mattered
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Nov 20, 2016 18:54
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Guy Goodbody posted:I don't understand how Thawne died right when Eddie did Yeah, no, that's the Back to the Future style time travel bit. That bit makes no sense.
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Nov 20, 2016 19:04
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It would have been awesome if Eddie did that and it didn't affect Thawne at all.
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Nov 20, 2016 19:16
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Guy Goodbody posted:I don't understand how Thawne died right when Eddie did, but Zoom could kill himself in the past, carry the body around for awhile, and none of that mattered Thawne didn't die, he ceased to exist because he was a direct genetic descendant of Eddie. Dead Eddie = no Thawne. Zoom on the other hand... 
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Nov 20, 2016 19:43
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Scyantific posted:Thawne didn't die, he ceased to exist because he was a direct genetic descendant of Eddie. Dead Eddie = no Thawne. You know, I'm really surprised that it's been three years and there haven't been any good "SPEEDFORCE - I ain't gotta explain poo poo" gifs made from this show.
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Nov 20, 2016 20:13
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Tiggum posted:Yeah, no, that's the Back to the Future style time travel bit. That bit makes no sense. I mean they tried to say that doing that created that huge singularity that was going to kill everyone. I kinda get the idea that for that reality to stay stable Thawe still had to exist, because otherwise the universe would try to unwrite itself or something. Or that the Speedforce has a limited protection for time fuckery which we have seen to some extent. edit: Farscape had an interesting way of dealing with alternate realities, that kind of applies here. They used the analogy of throwing a stone in a pond, the biggest changes are felt on the inside but it's harder to pinpoint the changes at the point of contact.
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Nov 21, 2016 00:52
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Every single action Zoom takes makes his motivation less and less clear. Why an army of metahumans? Why take over the city and give it to them? He gives a speech like he's trying to prove the superiority of metahumans. Or is he addicted to a speed drug and dying? Or is he just a serial killer? Or does he want to blow up the multiverse? Or does he just want to be the fastest man anywhere?
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Nov 21, 2016 01:48
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I think in the end they tried too hard to make Zoom into Reverse Flash 2.0, except they failed to give him a compelling motivation. They just made him act like a crazy serial killer with no real direction. Reverse Flash worked because he was so close to the team, he actually grew to care for them to an extent, and his motivation was simple and relatable despite his vicious methods.
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Nov 21, 2016 03:05
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